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  1. #181
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    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:03 PM.


  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    OK, I donít want to start an East coast vs. West coast thing regarding command systems. I can only compare the recommendations and tapes with what my training and background provide for.

    Having said that, I can see that I was insensitive and offended some people. My apologies to all. That was not my intent. Letís see what the final investigation reveals, and hope we all can learn from that.
    One more time.... What department do you work for? What city or municipality do you protect? What kind of structures make up your still district? How many runs does your company run? Fire and ems or just fire?

    Why can't you just answer these simple questions?

    We are all interested in your superior knowledge and want to hear about the base that supports it.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 08-27-2007 at 06:29 PM.
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  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Why was your high-rise plan updated then in light of what happened at this fire? In fact it went from 35 pages to 55 pages as a direct result.
    Lets not be childish about this. You, me and every other adult knows why it was rewritten after this event.



    Funny thing about the witt report - it never mentions how that fire started, anything about gasoline, or anything about what was stored in the fires room of origin... Maybe I'm just missing it.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 08-27-2007 at 06:32 PM.
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  4. #184
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Lets not be childish about this. You, me and every other adult knows why it was rewritten after this event.

    Funny thing about the witt report - it never mentions how that fire started, anything about gasoline, or anything about what was stored in the fires room of origin... Maybe I'm just missing it.
    There was no proof of gasoline presented, perhaps thats why? However, why was your high-rise SOP re-written as a direct result of this fire? Lets just say ICS had something to do with it!

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    There was no proof of gasoline presented, perhaps thats why?
    Report says human started Loop fire
    Accident or arson not yet determined

    By Jeff Coen and Jon Yates, Tribune staff reporters. Tribune staff reporters David Heinzmann and Carlos Sadovi contributed to this report
    December 31, 2003

    Fire Department investigators have concluded that the fatal Oct. 17 fire in a Loop high-rise was started by a person, not faulty wiring in a light fixture, and was fueled by gasoline, sources said Tuesday.

    The probe by the department's Office of Fire Investigation has determined the blaze at the Cook County Administration Building was "incendiary," sources said. A criminal investigation by Chicago police and prosecutors continues to determine if the fire was an accident or intentionally set.

    Six county workers died in the building at 69 W. Washington St. when they were trapped in a locked, smoky stairwell after being ordered to evacuate the building.

    The investigation initially focused on light fixtures in the 12th floor storage room where the fire started, but testing was inconclusive. Earlier this month, the state crime lab found traces of gasoline on a piece of debris taken from the same area as the suspect light fixtures.

    The Fire Department's report was originally scheduled to be completed the week before Christmas, but was delayed for unknown reasons.

    Fire Department spokeswoman Molly Sullivan said Tuesday she did not know the status of the investigation into the cause of the fire.

    "I have no idea what's in the report," Sullivan said. "I have not seen it."

    Sullivan said that if the report does conclude the fire was "incendiary" in nature, that does not necessarily mean the fire was arson, only that it was manmade.

    "Whether it is deliberately set or accidentally set is another matter," Sullivan said.

    The Fire Department is responsible for determining the cause and origin of the fire, Sullivan said. That information is sent to Chicago police, where members of the bomb and arson unit determine if a fire was arson.

    Police Supt. Philip J. Cline said Tuesday afternoon that police were still waiting for a finding from the Fire Department about the cause of the fire. Through a spokesman, he declined to elaborate Tuesday evening when asked about the Fire Department's report.

    Police would say only that they have been looking at all possibilities since the traces of gasoline were found.


    Yeah, you followed the case pretty close, huh....
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  6. #186
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    I've already addressed this on another site. But I'll ask a few of the same questions here:

    Can someone please find me a LODD, LODI caused by the use of 10-codes? Seems people in NYC from the fire and police department to the schools, sanitation, and MTA use 10 codes more times in one day without incident than some cities respond to in a year

    Can someone please find me a LODD or LODI caused by the lack of a PIO on a fireground?

    Those are two.
    This is a new one:
    How many of us can point to an injury or urgent message being MISSED from USELESS and EXCESSIVE radio usage of firefighters reporting the obivious?

    I am ready to just make sure I take my seat out of the truck and keep my seatbelt on at all times, let the PIO know my full autobiography, stage with my camp chair 2 miles away from the fire in the "safe/cold/whatever we are calling it this week' zone, and phone the mayor to make sure that there are two dispatchers on duty while we sing Kumbiya around the IC in his nice "climate-controlled" vehicle.
    Co 11
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    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocVBFDE14 View Post
    I've already addressed this on another site. But I'll ask a few of the same questions here:

    Can someone please find me a LODD, LODI caused by the use of 10-codes? Seems people in NYC from the fire and police department to the schools, sanitation, and MTA use 10 codes more times in one day without incident than some cities respond to in a year

    Can someone please find me a LODD or LODI caused by the lack of a PIO on a fireground?

    Those are two.
    This is a new one:
    How many of us can point to an injury or urgent message being MISSED from USELESS and EXCESSIVE radio usage of firefighters reporting the obivious?

    I am ready to just make sure I take my seat out of the truck and keep my seatbelt on at all times, let the PIO know my full autobiography, stage with my camp chair 2 miles away from the fire in the "safe/cold/whatever we are calling it this week' zone, and phone the mayor to make sure that there are two dispatchers on duty while we sing Kumbiya around the IC in his nice "climate-controlled" vehicle.
    I know what you're saying, and I agree for the most part. However, the use of 10-codes is one I am fairly opinionated on. The intent of NIMS is that everyone use terms and codes that are regional. In that aspect, if all of a FD and the people that assist them on a fairly regular basis know those codes, go for it.

    Where I have an issue is locally. We have one department that uses 10-codes, and they are different than the 10-codes that the Highway Patrol used to use and that everyone had a copy of. In this case, it's hard for us to understand what they've got going on during radio traffic. To me, this is the intent of the "no 10-code" requirement. We have had some issues, though thankfully no one has been injured or worse.

    I really think NIMS is good in theory, but they're trying way too hard and trying to do too much. Maybe not so much for the big city boys, but for us local yokels, it's made an improvement.

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    Where in NIMS does it say not to use ten codes for day to day operations? It suggests not using them when you are doing mutual aid on a large scale incident but says nothing about day to day operations. So what's the hang up everyone. Who cares what FDNY, Chicago, and any other department does. If it works for them who cares. I am certain most departments are professional enough to know that if they are working with another department to use plain English.

    You also have to remember that NIMS was not just designed for the fire service. It was designed for organizations that before Katrina and Rita had no idea what an incident commander was. It was written for our doughnut eating friends who do not regularly operate in a structured incident command system, unless it is a major event.

    Hospitals, Animal Control, Streets and Roads, Sanitation departments are also now taught NIMS and how they fit into the big picture. So NIMS is not just for us. Each department should use what works for them. Period the end.

  9. #189
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Report says human started Loop fire
    Accident or arson not yet determined

    By Jeff Coen and Jon Yates, Tribune staff reporters. Tribune staff reporters David Heinzmann and Carlos Sadovi contributed to this report
    December 31, 2003

    Fire Department investigators have concluded that the fatal Oct. 17 fire in a Loop high-rise was started by a person, not faulty wiring in a light fixture, and was fueled by gasoline, sources said Tuesday.

    Police would say only that they have been looking at all possibilities since the traces of gasoline were found.

    Yeah, you followed the case pretty close, huh....
    Your patronizing approach Chicago doesn't impress me. You guaranteed a few posts back that you know more about this fire than I do, but by cutting and pasting a newspaper report that is nearly four years old doesn't really suggest you have any knowledge of it whatsoever! Take it from me .... a lot has happened since December 2003!

    The intentions were to use this fire as an example to you, FFFred and others, who believe that ICS principles are not used on the firegrounds of big 'inner-city' fire departments. The 69 West Washington Fire in Chicago was a typical example where ICS system failure contributed to fatalities. As a result, your high-rise SOPs were subsequently updated dramatically.

    Its the same elsewhere and I am not, as I say, getting into irrelevant arguments about who invented what! What I will say is that ICS forms a major part of your firefighting operations and without basic elements in place, or by not following your procedures, people can die! Maybe thats what occurred in Charleston. The official reports will certainly inform us if that factor was existent and contributory in the tragic loss of nine firefighters. The initial recommendations directed at CFD suggests this may well be the case and the micro-managed fireground that is so obvious on the tapes appear to support that notion.

  10. #190
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    Triple post?

    Wow, what a hiccup.

  11. #191
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    double post

  12. #192
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    Unless I'm mistaken (and that's possible!), these were general recommendations about the structure and procedures of the Charleston FD, correct?

    We haven't seen the LODD report yet. When we do, we must review that report and learn! To ignore these deaths and not learn from them would be disrespectful.

    So, I would simply expect comments on the worthiness of these recomendations as they apply to firefighting in this city.

    Not being from Charleston or knowing anything about the city, I would generalize my comments and discuss if they would be worthy of most fire departments.

    Only those who fight fire in the City of Charleston will know what will or will not work (for example, the whole LDH debate) in their city.
    =======================
    So, those disclaimers aside, I see nothing in these recommendations that I would not try to use in my department. These are all fairly common procedures or tactics and should be followed!

    I agree that wearing seatbelts and not having a pio may not stop fireground deaths, but not wearing seatbelts IS causing LODD's. So, to me, seems like a good recommendation. As for the PIO bit, most departments probably don't need one on the fireground (unless faced with a similar disaster).

    I read most of these posts, but noone really stated that they shouldn't be using ICS/NIMS, right?

    10 Codes are nice, but why? What's the point? Simply saying that we have always used them is not a really good answer.. or why aren't horses pulling the hose wagon anymore?

    Someone mentioned Hackensack. The initial comment was not off base, we did learn a LOT from those LODD's. I think you could safely say that the Hackensack fire has now saved many many brother firefighter's lives. Because we took those lessons and internalized them, made changes...

    We're those changes hard, YES. Will reading this LODD report be hard, yes.

    I'll end this post, by asking for a prayer for the families of those brothers and others who have paid the ultimate price.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    There was no proof of gasoline presented, perhaps thats why?
    ChicagoFF:
    By Jeff Coen and Jon Yates, Tribune staff reporters. Tribune staff reporters David Heinzmann and Carlos Sadovi contributed to this report
    December 31, 2003
    Fire Department investigators have concluded that the fatal Oct. 17 fire in a Loop high-rise was started by a person, not faulty wiring in a light fixture, and was fueled by gasoline, sources said Tuesday.
    Batt18:
    Your patronizing approach Chicago doesn't impress me. You guaranteed a few posts back that you know more about this fire than I do, but by cutting and pasting a newspaper report that is nearly four years old doesn't really suggest you have any knowledge of it whatsoever!
    Looks to me like you asked for proof on the gas and it was provided, but now it isn't good enough. Why am I not surprised....
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  14. #194
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    ChicagoFF:

    Batt18:

    Looks to me like you asked for proof on the gas and it was provided, but now it isn't good enough. Why am I not surprised....
    So what do you know about that fire SP? Do you really think a four year old news report is 'proof'?! Come to this debate with facts; or opinions based on well sourced information; or personal experience! Otherwise don't waste forum space!

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Your patronizing approach Chicago doesn't impress me. You guaranteed a few posts back that you know more about this fire than I do, but by cutting and pasting a newspaper report that is nearly four years old doesn't really suggest you have any knowledge of it whatsoever! Take it from me .... a lot has happened since December 2003!
    He works in Chicago...I work in New York. Where do you hail from that you know more about each of our respective departments operating procedures than we do?

    The intentions were to use this fire as an example to you, FFFred and others, who believe that ICS principles are not used on the firegrounds of big 'inner-city' fire departments. The 69 West Washington Fire in Chicago was a typical example where ICS system failure contributed to fatalities. As a result, your high-rise SOPs were subsequently updated dramatically.
    How many times do I need to explain this to you.

    1. Just because someone coppied a large part of the structure and accountability from ours and others procedures and then sold it as ICS doesn't mean we use YOUR principles. I assure you the procedures we have in place were developed long before ICS.

    2. We had a very lengthy debate and discussion on these very forums a few months back regarding NIMS and its requirements. Needless to say we don't follow many if not all of them according to the Pro-NIMS crowd.

    3. We don't assign companies Task orientated titles...anyone remember my question that was never satisfactorilly answered, What do we call Engine 47?
    We don't assign the first company officer to pick and choose assignments as he sees fit as if it were a pick-up football game. We don't follow ICS anyone remotely familiar with our operations who normally works under ICS will tell you..."that isn't anything like the way we operate under ICS". I've heard it more times than I can remember.

    Its the same elsewhere and I am not, as I say, getting into irrelevant arguments about who invented what! What I will say is that ICS forms a major part of your firefighting operations and without basic elements in place, or by not following your procedures, people can die! Maybe thats what occurred in Charleston. The official reports will certainly inform us if that factor was existent and contributory in the tragic loss of nine firefighters. The initial recommendations directed at CFD suggests this may well be the case and the micro-managed fireground that is so obvious on the tapes appear to support that notion.
    So by using 10-codes, by not using made up superfoulous titles for companies that already have a stable understood designation, by not assigning stagging...by not throwing out assignments as the first arriving officer sees fit as Mr. Devil dog proposed, by not following all this ICS sillyness....we are all recklessly endangering our lives?

    I know why you guys claim our procedures embrace your ICS garbage...I just want to see if you will admit why.

    If this ICS saves so many lives...what do you blame for deaths in Phoneix and other cities that are very much involved in ICS? If I held the PFD up to our standards I could as well claim that their failure to follow FDNY style procedures led (directly or indirectly to the death of Bret Tarver)

    The claims that in hindsight ICS would have saved their lives is nothing more than an attempt to sell your agenda.

    They could indepenently develop their own policies and procedures that work to correct the problems they encountered at this fire. Thats what largely my dept has been doing for 140 years. Applying your set of rules and claiming the moral high ground is no different had someone said that if they had failed to use Memphis's operations, or St. Louis's...etc and things would have been different had they done so. It is obvious that the operations would have been handled differently...they would have been using someone elses rules and ideas on how the fire should be fought.

    My expeierence with ICS is that it is largely a overly beuracratic micro-managerial system that might give order in slowly evolving operations involving 10000s of acres and 100 different fire depts from all over the west coast...but it doesn't lend it self well to urban fire issues.

    You appear to claim that the fire was micro managed in Charleston...ICS will only bring more red-tape and more silly hand-holding (thanks Chicago) nonsense from a bunch of suburban fire Chiefs who have little to no relevant fire duty to base their concepts on.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-28-2007 at 10:48 AM.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    So what do you know about that fire SP? Do you really think a four year old news report is 'proof'?! Come to this debate with facts; or opinions based on well sourced information; or personal experience! Otherwise don't waste forum space!
    What would you have said if Chicago just said...

    "I know it was fueled by Gasoline"

    You most assuredly would have replied that we need "proof"!

    Well there it is in black and white...a 4 year old news report about a fire that happened 4 years ago...was that not well sourced enough for you?

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken (and that's possible!), these were general recommendations about the structure and procedures of the Charleston FD, correct?

    We haven't seen the LODD report yet. When we do, we must review that report and learn! To ignore these deaths and not learn from them would be disrespectful.
    I don't disagree here...some of us are waiting for the report and some facts before making any concusive remarks about the fire or the recomendations.

    So, I would simply expect comments on the worthiness of these recomendations as they apply to firefighting in this city.
    That isn't what we've seen from a few individuals.

    =======================
    So, those disclaimers aside, I see nothing in these recommendations that I would not try to use in my department. These are all fairly common procedures or tactics and should be followed!

    I agree that wearing seatbelts and not having a pio may not stop fireground deaths, but not wearing seatbelts IS causing LODD's. So, to me, seems like a good recommendation. As for the PIO bit, most departments probably don't need one on the fireground (unless faced with a similar disaster).
    Don't pee on electric fences, don't touch the 3rd rail and always use 2 1/2 hose with smoothbores off standpipes would be good recomendations...but they aren't contained in this report...that is why it seems like certain people are pushing their agendas and marginalizing the major issues they should be focusing on.

    I read most of these posts, but noone really stated that they shouldn't be using ICS/NIMS, right?
    10 Codes are nice, but why? What's the point? Simply saying that we have always used them is not a really good answer.. or why aren't horses pulling the hose wagon anymore?
    This was a multipage debate a few months back after their was a temporary movement to abolish them altogether and all I will say there is plenty of justification for 10-codes if they are used properly for the right reasons. I have no idea how or why Charleston uses 10-codes...but my dept uses them (despite NIMS and ICS rules against them) and we don't plan on stopping their usage and if Charleston's system is similar to ours...then I see no reason they should stop.

    Someone mentioned Hackensack. The initial comment was not off base, we did learn a LOT from those LODD's. I think you could safely say that the Hackensack fire has now saved many many brother firefighter's lives. Because we took those lessons and internalized them, made changes...
    Did everyone wait for the facts and the offical reports on the incident or did they make baseless assumptions and claims on conjecture? I don't recall that happening.(although the web was only a nerds wet dream then)

    We're those changes hard, YES. Will reading this LODD report be hard, yes.
    That is what these ICS champions should wait for...not making claims that failure to use stagging or use of 10-codes cost men their lives.

    FTM-PTB

  18. #198
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    FFFred we seem to be talking in riddles to each other! I agree with much of your posting so I don't need to go over everything you wrote. Where I disagree is this ...

    1. ICS forms part of just about every inner city and suburban fire department's procedures, including New York; Boston and Chicago. I gave your high-rise procedures as examples.

    2. You don't refer to it as ICS but the vast majority do, for the sake of standardization.

    3. The Chicago fire quoted was recognized as one example where these incident command functions failed, for various reasons. They acknowledged these failings and subsequently updated their incident command functions in the high-rise procedure.

    4. The problems associated with micro-managed firegrounds are eased through properly effected pre-assigned roles and incident command functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post

    1. Just because someone copied a large part of the structure and accountability from ours and others procedures and then sold it as ICS doesn't mean we use YOUR principles. I assure you the procedures we have in place were developed long before ICS. These are most certainly not MY principles

    If this ICS saves so many lives...what do you blame for deaths in Phoneix and other cities that are very much involved in ICS? If I held the PFD up to our standards I could as well claim that their failure to follow FDNY style procedures led (directly or indirectly to the death of Bret Tarver) Surely even you can appreciate Fred that there are usually several contributory factors in every LODD - ICS might be just one of them; nobody is suggesting that a lack of ICS at Charleston caused the brothers deaths - but it might have contributed

    The claims that in hindsight ICS would have saved their lives is nothing more than an attempt to sell your agenda. Fred I am not attempting to 'sell' anything!

    FTM-PTB

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    So what do you know about that fire SP? Do you really think a four year old news report is 'proof'?! Come to this debate with facts; or opinions based on well sourced information; or personal experience! Otherwise don't waste forum space!
    Now that's funny. For the better part of 10 pages, you and others have been using a preliminary report to throw Charleston and their ICS/command under a bus-with no tangible proof other than the opinion of others.
    As far as personal experience, from your uninformed postings here and at the vacant building thread, I believe I have you beat. As far as wasting forum space, as long as there is know it all wackers like you here, it's not a waste for me to respond. To bad if you don't like it.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 08-28-2007 at 10:57 AM.
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    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    What would you have said if Chicago just said...

    "I know it was fueled by Gasoline" But he didn't!

    You most assuredly would have replied that we need "proof"!

    Well there it is in black and white...a 4 year old news report about a fire that happened 4 years ago...was that not well sourced enough for you?

    FTM-PTB
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