Where do you work? There has been a rash of posters lately who like to toss BS around from behind the screen but without giving any info out about where they are from. Batt18, devildog4, HotTrotter - What department are you guys on?
Question. If there is no incident command system in place then how can there be any control? Given the lack of control, you then have chaos. I listened to the tapes of the Charleston fire, I heard chaos.
My knowledge of this fire is not limited to Witt or news reports.
I see a debate here that has gone the same way so many other debates have gone in the past. I accept fully that the Charleston fire is being investigated and we must wait for all the facts to emerge before we can learn and implement updates to our own procedures where necessary.
However, there are recommendations up for discussion. There are horrendous tapes out there to listen to if you will. It is acceptable to many to try and see if there are any lessons to be learned at this early stage that might improve their own situation. Some of the tapes, videos and images might present a false representation and we must be careful not to jump to conclusions. However, there are obvious lessons to be learned even at this stage.
My references to ICS are simply to clarify some misunderstandings that we should all be (probably are to some extent) implementing the basic functions of command and control. From here we need to establish clear lines of communication to insure our procedure is able to work. Simply by talking about these things may help someone, somewhere, grasp essential features that might save lives.
It is disrespectful to sling mud and make false assumptions. However, where issues are clear then it is right to debate at this stage how we can advance our own understanding of matters related.
Look HotTrojanBattTrotterHorse18 is back!!!
Say Fred,they make a spray for that. T.C.
Another of your posts claiming to know exactly what went on.Quote:
Brother please! I do know more than you about that fire ok ... it's not what I believe ... it's what I know. ICS failings were presented as a contributory factor in the occupants deaths.
This was your snappy answer to my question. You had never even heard of the gasoline being there before. Even a casual follower of this fire would remember that controversial point. You didn't know about it. Then you did some searching on the internet and became an expert. So I have to assume you are talking about the disagreement between OFI and Bomb and Arson. Is that it? Whatever. Like I said, there was alot more to this fire than you will ever find with your ten minute google searches. You say your knowledge is not limited to the witt report or the news reports? Then you must know many of the personalities involved, ff's and chiefs, or be good friends with them - otherwise you are just another internet genius who thinks that google gives him insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
There was no proof of gasoline presented, perhaps thats why?
Batt18, devildog4, HotTrotter - where do you guys work? What city do you cover? Nitwits.....
That's the $64,000 question of the day!Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
This guy claims to know my and your depts better than we do ourselves...makes me wonder who he is or who he thinks he is.
OK answer some questions yourself about this fire ... or are you just a fifteen year old kid with a new laptop, pretending to be a big city firefighter like his dad?!
Which authority submitted the gasoline samples?
Give me the names of the first five officers in command?
Who was the Plans Chief at this incident and what is his assignment now?
Lighten up and get on with the debate!
C'mon Chicago? You've been on thread 20 minutes! Can you answer or not?
[QUOTE=devildog4;855497]And are you implying that it is not beyond the bounds of Kalifornia? Can you swear under oath that every single, solitary fire department on the West Coast practices the ICS system, and that because of that what happened in Charleston will never, ever happen on the west coast. Also if you go to Charleston.net and read the various local articles concerning this fire, there is one that mentions Chief Thomas and the other members of the Charleston Fire Department having certificates showing they had completed the FEMA online NIMS courses, but they are slammed for the courses being too easy and easy to cheat on. I guess they can't win for losing: first you get slammed for not having ICS training, and when you show proof of it it's not good enough. :rolleyes: And I could give a rat's backside whether what my departments do makes you glad or not; I'm not in the business of pleasing you, I'm in the business of protecting my personnel and citizens. And the last part about "too bad the CFD does not" is the problem I have with you: you're not slamming Chief Thomas, you're slamming the entire department, of which I still include the fallen brothers as being part of, and for that you can screw yourself. They don't need a self-important jerk like yourself to tell them things went wrong, they live it every day, and things are trying to be made better. I have never said that there were not problems with the way things went, I have a problem with someone like you that knows nothing about the department or what actually happened wagging his finger and spouting his blowhole and crowing about the moral superiority of their own department. BTW, which department was that again? I don't believe you or Batt hae answered Fred or Chicago on that one yet...Quote:
Ya know, ya missed my point AGAIN! My first point was that the ICS system is taken very seriously here on the Westcoast. Invented here. Every dept must know and practice it. I am so glad to hear that YOUR dept practices it (and national standards). Too bad CFD does not.
You won't hear the word IC or Command or Chief at my department either, because we all know that the officer of the first in engine is the IC until the Deputy Chief arrives on location, at which time command is transferred. RIT is pre-assigned so it doesn't have to be announced. Gee, we also use engine numbers for assignments..I guess the Kalifornia fire gods are going to damn us to hell. :rolleyes:Quote:
With your extensive wildland experience, you more than others should be all too familiar with the ICS system and it's importance. After you listened to the tape, you, more than others, should have heard and agree with "as you listen you will hear this incident go into total chaos with no intial set up of IC, RIC, Accountablity, Interior Ops, Staging, etc, etc" . If I am wrong, I will publicly apologize.
Did you ever hear the word command or IC, or just Chief? It is a function, not a rank.
Did you ever hear the word RIC or RIT? Hear anything about a crew staging at the door ready to go?
Did you ever hear the word vent or ventilation? Hear (if it was pre-assigned) that it was done?
Did you ever hear interior group or sector? I heard crews by engine number.
I am not defending any system, archaic or not. I am defending the good name of 9 men who gave their lives doing the best they could, as well as the names of the rest of their department who has to carry on from the likes of you that like to cast stones based on incomplete information, hearsay, and radio traffic that may not tell the whole story ( how do you know what orders were given verbally that did not cross the airwaves?). I do not know what CFD's procedures are and neither do you. Can you say with 100% certainty that this fire, outside of the fact that 9 men died, is how all Charleston fires went? If it was so bad before this, how come we have not had anyone on here prior to this complaining about it? Two of the men who died did their 30 years, retired, and then asked to come back: if this department was so screwed up, why would they have done that? I don't know why, and neither do you. The only thing this department needs from those of us on the outside is thoughts and prayers ( although I know that is illegal where you are from :rolleyes: ) ; let them grieve, let them find their own answers, fix their own problems, and do it with out having to hear self-righteous braying from the likes of you.Quote:
I really don't like to keep posting on this topic, but as long as you continue to defend an archaic, antiquated, behind-the-times, unsafe system that may have contributed to this tragic loss, I will continue to try and educate you and others.
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This is your fourth post on the matter, who side tracked the thread?Quote:
For those of you who have not heard these tapes here is the web link to listen to them. Remember, we are in a dangerous profession and listening to these audios, I AM PROUD TO BE A FIREFIGHTER IN THIS GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA which takes the incident command sysytem very seriously!
As you listen you will hear this incident go into total chaos with no intial set up of IC, RIC, Accountablity, Interior Ops, Staging, etc, etc (kinda reminds me of Hanckinsack NJ Incident a few years back).
Anyways, they were emotionally draining on me but I learned alot from listening to them. Keep those lost in this tragic incident in your thoughts and remember how important "family" is to all of us!!!
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I'm still not your "dude", Spicolli :rolleyes:Quote:
Then why the "GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA" comment then?Quote:
OK, I donít want to start an East coast vs. West coast thing regarding command systems.
If that's your position, why did you start this thread in the first place? the final investigation is not complete yet.Quote:
Letís see what the final investigation reveals, and hope we all can learn from that
Show me where I ever mention the IAFF, Chief Brunacini, or attack the members of the panel. As far as the forum I called you a ******bag, but that is not an attack, that's my opinion of you as a person. You call me dude, I call you ******...fair is fair.Quote:
I started this post to ask people what they thought of the recommendations. You, FFFRED and ChicagoFF turned that into bashing the IAFF, calling Chief Brunacini a plagiarizer and attacking the members of the panel and forum.
Can you tell whether or not St Andrews FD supplied aerial ops with their 4"? Do you even know who the St Andrews FD is? Can you state with 100% certainty that a hydrant was not caught before "5 or 6 engines/trucks"? Nope, didn't think so.Quote:
Why ďChanges in water supply standard operating proceduresĒ? As I indicated earlier, a single 2 1/2" supply line is not sufficient for a truck operation. In fact I donít think I heard anyone say anything about catching a hydrant or that they laid out their own supply line until maybe 5 or 6 engines/trucks were on scene.
The question I have for you is if your department does things so perfectly, you're supposedly not going to debate what other departments do or don't do, then why does what the Charleston Fire Department do or don't do matter to you? Did you come to the memorial service? Can you even point to where Charleston is on a map? The department is trying to learn and improve, yet you still hammer them. You claim to not slam them, yet you throw out terms, like "incompetent" and "chaos"; tell me , do you think the FDNY was "incompetent" on 9/11? Can you tell me that there would not be "chaos" on scene if your department had 9 missing? How about all the departments that do the things in the recommendations, yet still suffer LODD's? And no I'm not saying the reccomendations are not needed, I'm saying they do not annoint one with immortality like you seem to think they do. Oh, and as far as you grouping me with FFFred and ChicagoFF I am no where near worthy, but I am honored to be placed in their esteemed company.