1. #276
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    Lexfd5:
    I didn't start this thread "bashing a department that had lost 9 of their brothers". Initially, I asked what people thought of the panels recommendations. Then I commented on the recommendations, which turned into my opinion of what went wrong, or more important, how things were done differently than what I know and what my experience has showed me.

    I have told people who were insulted that was not my intention, and apologized. Looking at what (in my opinion) were operational mistakes and shortcomings, and then posting from newspapers, blogs, former and current CFD members is not bashing anyone.

    We can wait for the final recommendations, but there has to be opinion about the panels preliminary recommendations made after just 4 days.
    Were things that obviously wrong? Is the panel on a witch hunt?

    BTW, I didn't start the whole LDH thing. Someone else did. I have commented on it. It sure would have been better then a single 2 1/2" supply line. Dual 2 1/2" would have been better as well. Look, water supply was an issue at this fire. We can all have an opinion, or speculate on what happened. I think, in the end, you will see that yes, an inadequate water supply was a major factor.

  2. #277
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    CaptainGonzo:

    Please tell me what I have posted (other than my opinion) that was factually wrong. If I am, I will stand corrected. Not going to argue with you about ten codes, RIT/RIC, catching hydrants, accountability, etc. None of those things take experience. Teach you at the academy. You can have a difference of opinion, but you don't need experience to have an opinion, or to ramble off standards.

    What do YOU think of the panel's recommendations? Let's try and keep on topic my friend.

  3. #278
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    644

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    CaptainGonzo:

    Please tell me what I have posted (other than my opinion) that was factually wrong. If I am, I will stand corrected. Not going to argue with you about ten codes, RIT/RIC, catching hydrants, accountability, etc. None of those things take experience. Teach you at the academy. You can have a difference of opinion, but you don't need experience to have an opinion, or to ramble off standards.

    What do YOU think of the panel's recommendations? Let's try and keep on topic my friend.
    Hmmmmm.........truer words have never been spoken by someone so fitting.


    As for the panel's recommendations I think the vast majority is a bunch of fluff. Just because you do not have an SOP for wearing a seatbelt did not mean every CFD firefighter did not wear one. Maybe they did the right thing every time and did not need an SOP to belt up. Maybe it is the city of Charleston's work rule that when in a government vehicle you wear your belt. Why would you need an SOP then?

    My opinion on panels and any consultants is that they will tell the one who hired them what they want to hear. They do it to keep their job as consultants.

    And by the way all those things you say do not take experience and that you learned everything you needed to know in the academy shows your level of experience. The day you stop learning on this job should be the day you leave. I learn something new everyday on the job.
    Last edited by lexfd5; 09-05-2007 at 07:56 AM.

  4. #279
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    ChicagoFF:

    Look, where I work or what my experience is does not matter. I posted something positive that CFD is finally doing. It is about time. Shame it had to come to this before they made some changes.

    Mikey: Both the Mayor and Chief are mutts.

    California IS a great State, and the ICS system IS taken very seriously here. Sorry if you have a problem with that ChicagoFF. Maybe the bottom line is progressive vs traditional?

    Sure it does big shot. You are proud to be from that state of illiegals and liberals we'd imagine you'd be proud of the FD you are presumably employed by.

    I work in New York and ChicagoFF works in, you guessed it Chicago...so what FD do you work for? Tick-tock-Tick-tock...

    I saw nothing posted by you that was positive...most of it was loaded with condecention and cryptic comments...then once called to answer to what you posted...you claimed you didn't necessarily agree with what you coppied from other web sites and you only wanted to bring a different perspective to these forums....now we see that by the above comments you did agree with the assertions of some other people and you just didn't have the b@lls to act like a man and support your position.

    As for the "progressive" comment...progressive might have meant something positive years ago...today it is a word ignorant fools like you hide behind to make yourselves feel good about the sillyness you attempt to justify as profesional firefighting.

    FTM-PTB

  5. #280
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    CaptainGonzo:

    Please tell me what I have posted (other than my opinion) that was factually wrong. If I am, I will stand corrected. Not going to argue with you about ten codes, RIT/RIC, catching hydrants, accountability, etc. None of those things take experience. Teach you at the academy. You can have a difference of opinion, but you don't need experience to have an opinion, or to ramble off standards.

    What do YOU think of the panel's recommendations? Let's try and keep on topic my friend.
    WHAT?!?!?!?

    You aren't going to argue "ten codes, RIT/RIC, catching hydrants, accountability, etc. None of those things take experience. Teach you at the academy. "

    Tell us what academy did you attend...mine was on Randals Island, Chicago's was at the Chicago Fire Academy on De Koven St....where prey tell did you attend that was so good that it is a substitute for expereince?

    I guess we are that much closer to understanding why you won't divulge your employing FD and why your comments have made many on here begin to think you are an insignifigant Johnny know-it-all with no time on the job.

    Every time I read your comments I thank god my family doesn't rely on you for fire protection.

    FTM-PTB

  6. #281
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I'm guessing yours doesn't.

    And ours is written in pencil because it's updated every year.
    You lucky bastage!!! I went so far as to write one for our department that they could use as a boiler plate. That was two years ago and still nothing. You can't have direction if you don't have a plan.

  7. #282
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    You've got me all wrong. I'm not defending anyone. I'm on my own little tangent - which is, who is this arrogant jagoff "from the great state of California"


    It is just an annoying attitude so I wanted to know something about him, and he refuses to answer.
    Without a doubt he is arrogant and a bit abrasive. But if you read through his BS you will see a message that many are thinking. How come CFD didn't do these things before. Was it the Mayor, the city council, an incompetent chief? What held the CFD back? Polyester uniforms was minor. Bigger hoses on a scale of 1 to 10 is 5. But lacking training, that is huge!!!

  8. #283
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Trotter,here's another thinking excercise for you.See if you can follow along.Let's say your village hamlet/town/city doesn't HAVE any 4/5/6"hose.And they don't have any cash in the budget to buy any.Now let's just say this city(we'll use Charleston)is up to their whyzu in 2and1/2 inch hose.Now exactly how much inqenuity are you going to have to come up with to change your single lay bed(IF that's what you use)to a split lay bed? CORRECT ANSWER: NOT MUCH! and laying out takes little more time,just enough to break ONE connection.And better than twice the water.And picking up duece and a half is quicker than picking up LDH so if you use twice as much,well,let's look it as it another way.Still with me? We just doubled our available supply,we didn't have to really rework our rig,AND we didn't cost the City ONE RED CENT.So until the budget gets sufficently fat to rework all the rigs to accept and recieve LDH we've now doubled our ability to supply our rigs with an adequate incoming supply for the net sum of 0$.Pretty cool,huh? And if you screw up,and lay a single when you should have laid two?Well,that's what they make radios and second due apparatus for.Everybody slips once in awhile.T.C.
    Well the first thing you need to do is plan. If you fail to plan - then you plan to fail. I'm sure CFD buys new hose every year. So instead of replacing 2 1/2" you buy 5" ldh. You then make a plan to change over trucks based on a priority listing. You also budget in some extra money to buy new hose. You can then take your 2 1/2 that you replace, put in storage, and replace those hoses that fail on rigs still using 2 1/2. In the process, you would need to get some adapters. I know when we went through the transition the old timers bitched about and hated the storz fittings. Over time they have come to love it.

    By the way, it doesn't take any longer to lay in 1000' of 2 1/2 as it does 5". Don't know if you have gone to a pump training school or not, but in those classes they go over the various hoses, how much will flow and what you can get. And actually, you should be able to get a book or some on-line instruction somewhere that will teach you this stuff.

  9. #284
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,686

    Default

    I've yet to see anyone post any factual reason that CFD should be using 5" over the 2 1/2" they have. I've seen lots of theoretical comments, but nothing factual.

    What is their water supply system like?
    What is their hydrant configuration?
    Do they reverse lay and/or forward lay?
    Is it expected that the driver (or another FF) will have to manually drag supply hose back to a hydrant?

    There's much to be looked at other than simply saying LDH has less friction loss.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #285
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,048

    Default

    trotts -- as I have said before -- sweep off your own front steps first, sounds like you live in a glass house. I wonder how many injiries and LODDs are caused by knowitalls that cant perform basic fire ground tasks. In all honesty can you couple hose , use correct hose stream applications. and don your pack in a timely manner. If I was to bet , I would say NO -- guys like you have this excess of surface knowledge that you spew in all directions , but have no solid foundation of experence or true learning.
    And devildawg --- that statment about learning everything you need to know at the academy ---sure speaks volumes. Maybe you and trotts can join up with Donna C and take turns ----- being chief .

  11. #286
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Trotter,COMPREHENSION 101! Read my post carefully you FDA,NO WHERE did I say it took longer to LAY a 5" over 2.5". I SAID it took longer to pick it up(5"). I ALSO said to lay twin 2.5's would take a couple seconds longer than laying a single BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO UNSCREW ONE (1) COUPLING.Have I gone to pump training? Nah,I hold a MPO/Aerial card,Fire pumps 1,2, and advanced relay/ tanker and have been teaching pumps for over a quarter century.Still don't know much about it,maybe YOU could enlighten me how they work.I love the "you can't do it crowd".SOMETIMES you need to get the job DONE with what's at hand, not just sit crying in your Cheerios with the "if only I'd had a......,I'd have licked that job".While I was going to college we were running third alarms into Portland,where they were burning the waterfront flat building by building.I had the good fortune to work quite a lot with a Portland Fire Lt. named Don Whitney,perhaps you've heard of him? Or Dana Asdourian? And,could you believe it,all that fire and not a stitch of LDH to be seen. Oh,it's there now, but it's pretty amazing how much fire you can put out with a supply with 2.5 IF you know what you are doing.And,take it from a guy who KNOWS,it's a LOT more expensive to change over to LDH than you make it out to be.It's not as simple as picking up a few lengths and an adapter here and there year to year.To change over in Charleston would require a HUGE expense in fittings alone(so the LDH COULD work)never mind the expenditure in hose loads.Better try again. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-05-2007 at 11:21 AM.

  12. #287
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    CaptainGonzo:

    Please tell me what I have posted (other than my opinion) that was factually wrong. If I am, I will stand corrected. Not going to argue with you about ten codes, RIT/RIC, catching hydrants, accountability, etc. None of those things take experience. Teach you at the academy. You can have a difference of opinion, but you don't need experience to have an opinion, or to ramble off standards.

    What do YOU think of the panel's recommendations? Let's try and keep on topic my friend.

    Why can't you just answer one simple question....

    What Fire Department do you work for?

    Come on now, it isn't rocket science or brain surgery!

    As for my thoughts.. I'l wait for the full report to come out.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  13. #288
    Forum Member
    FDAIC485's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeast aka Dixie
    Posts
    653

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    To change over in Charleston would require a HUGE expense in fittings alone(so the LDH COULD work)never mind the expenditure in hose loads.Better try again. T.C.
    I bet you it is far cheaper than the cost of one FF's life.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  14. #289
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDAIC485 View Post
    I bet you it is far cheaper than the cost of one FF's life.
    So is having 4 men and an officer on every company...does your department have this?

    FTM-PTB

  15. #290
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Why can't you just answer one simple question....

    What Fire Department do you work for?

    Come on now, it isn't rocket science or brain surgery!

    As for my thoughts.. I'l wait for the full report to come out.
    Why are you so obsessed with finding out everyone's location or assignment! It's not relevant to the debate nor is it relevant to you! If you want to know such information try hitting the member's profile button or send a private message! Stop clogging the threads up!

  16. #291
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDAIC485 View Post
    I bet you it is far cheaper than the cost of one FF's life.
    Well said brother! At last somebody with a head on their shoulders and a heart where it matters.

  17. #292
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Why are you so obsessed with finding out everyone's location or assignment! It's not relevant to the debate nor is it relevant to you! If you want to know such information try hitting the member's profile button or send a private message! Stop clogging the threads up!
    What are you trying to hide from? No one asked what group he was in or what company he was assigned to. Just like with you who aluded to being very familiar with my dept procedures back into the 70s and working with my father..etc. Most people don't like trolls...or people who use multiple screen names or personas. You and Tom Cruise can come out of the closet anytime now...we are waiting.

    Mr. Big shot ICS has made statements that brought his dept membership into being a topic of discussion. Perhaps he should have thought before typing...but considering what some of us believe to be his expereience and time on the job his lack of discression isn't unexpected.

    FTM-PTB

  18. #293
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    485,Unfortunately it's a bit late for that.We've had LDH for a long,long time.But if there is no money in your hose line to buy LDH,where are you going to get it?You got a money press out back?I don't know Charleston's situation,but most cities I know couldn't make that leap in a year or even three without a bond or other sizable change in their operating budget in a time most cities are cutting,not increasing expenditures.In no way should you interpret this as blanket support for not needing LDH,rather as a how you gonna do it. There are others solutions I'm thinking that could be applied in the interim to help until such time as an old system can be changed.And we have no background on their water supply system,unless you've got something in your pocket that no one else here has mentioned. T.C.

  19. #294
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    What are you trying to hide from? No one asked what group he was in or what company he was assigned to. Just like with you who aluded to being very familiar with my dept procedures back into the 70s and working with my father..etc. Most people don't like trolls...or people who use multiple screen names or personas. You and Tom Cruise can come out of the closet anytime now...we are waiting.

    Mr. Big shot ICS has made statements that brought his dept membership into being a topic of discussion. Perhaps he should have thought before typing...but considering what some of us believe to be his expereience and time on the job his lack of discression isn't unexpected.

    FTM-PTB
    FFFred I debate with a wide range of people on here and have done for years. To me their department or location is interesting if they want to make that known, but irrelevant to me if they don't. What is more important is that people are reasonable in how they address others. I don't see great experience in all posters here but I certainly don't repeatedly slam them for lacking in experience!

    If they make brash statements, read behind what they are trying to say. Some of us are not so good at making our point. If the knowledge is clearly wrong then put them gently on the right road, or point them in direction as to where they might improve their knowledge.

    I notice some posters do this all the time. Others I just KNOW are looking for every opportunity to name call or slam down those who are less experienced in this profession.

    Chill out brothers! Like it or not, Devildog AND Trotts have both made (on a few occasions) some very good points in the debates and the basis of their arguments have sometimes followed the way others think!

  20. #295
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    I'll dip my toe in the water and just clear up one thing.

    Four or Five inch is easier and quicker to reload than 2.5 or 3". Hands down. I've done both and we actually compared the two, 15 years ago when we switched to LDH.
    ==================
    Now, i'll really get in trouble and mix it up a bit. I'm a fan of LDH, and that's what we have used for a long time, so I'm not impartial.

    I don't know what the water system is like in Charleston. However, I have yet to see an instance where LDH is a wrong move. I will grant you the point that I have not surveyed the country and checked every fire department and water system, but still...

    The arguments I've heard against going to LDH are, and please add to my list.

    - Water system is inadequate to fill LDH. Well, then 2 or 3 smaller diameter lines won't help and wouldn't you need tenders or drafting at that point?

    The volume you flow is dependant on the fire conditions, so if you need more than the system can supply, then your screwed regardless of the hose size.

    LDH can flow low volume or high volume and if you wind up needing more then the line is already laid out. In other words, can't go wrong.

    - Cost. Yep, it definitly costs more money and this is something that would need to be considered. However, no time like the present to start phasing it in. Big cities may not need a bed of a thousand feet on every engine. This is where knowing your district will definitly help.

    What were the other reasons? Again, please understand that i'm speaking in general terms. I'm not taking shots at the city of Charleston or their fire department.

  21. #296
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I'll dip my toe in the water and just clear up one thing.

    Four or Five inch is easier and quicker to reload than 2.5 or 3". Hands down. I've done both and we actually compared the two, 15 years ago when we switched to LDH.
    ==================
    Now, i'll really get in trouble and mix it up a bit. I'm a fan of LDH, and that's what we have used for a long time, so I'm not impartial.

    I don't know what the water system is like in Charleston. However, I have yet to see an instance where LDH is a wrong move. I will grant you the point that I have not surveyed the country and checked every fire department and water system, but still...

    The arguments I've heard against going to LDH are, and please add to my list.

    - Water system is inadequate to fill LDH. Well, then 2 or 3 smaller diameter lines won't help and wouldn't you need tenders or drafting at that point?

    The volume you flow is dependant on the fire conditions, so if you need more than the system can supply, then your screwed regardless of the hose size.

    LDH can flow low volume or high volume and if you wind up needing more then the line is already laid out. In other words, can't go wrong.

    - Cost. Yep, it definitly costs more money and this is something that would need to be considered. However, no time like the present to start phasing it in. Big cities may not need a bed of a thousand feet on every engine. This is where knowing your district will definitly help.

    What were the other reasons? Again, please understand that i'm speaking in general terms. I'm not taking shots at the city of Charleston or their fire department.
    Fair questions.

    First consider these issues that have been discussed frequently on these forums and based on my work experience and travels...I would say they hold true for the most part.

    1. Most people seem partial to forward lays to the point that many are unfamiliar with or unconfortable with the reverse (backstretch) despite it being a standard and basic Engine Evolution since the begining of the modern fire service (and even before in many of the larger older cities which became the origin for many smaller depts operational styles.) This fact alone might account for the obvious oversight by these experts who's depts most likely aren't familiar or well versed in all facets of Engine co. evolutions.

    2. Most in addition to the above also fail to test a hydrant before committing to it with LDH. This is seen usually every winter multiple times in the Fh.com news when frozen hydrants foul up the operations of departments dependent on forward lays and preconnects.

    We've not seen what Charlestons Engine ops consist of...not one mention of their procedures and if the ones already in place were even followed at the Sofa fire. To suggest a complete overhaul and redesign of their hosebed (and thus possibly their Engine operations) with no more than a week spent by these "experts" is a bit questionable.

    -LDH blocks the street from incomming Ladders and support apparatus.
    -LDH and forward lays take manpower away from the stretch in the crucial inital stages of a fire, and most depts represented on these forums can't afford to loose a man to this task.
    -Once LDH is charged...changing positions is difficult at best...at least as compared to use of smaller more managable hose lines.

    -LDH creates a large failure point that is difficult to overcome for low staffed fire departments should the hose fail. This is as opposed to the backstrech where each line terminates independently at the pumping Engine and thus any failure in any one attack line doesn't threaten the rest of the operation and a failure in the short stretch of supply hose whatever it may be can easily be corrected by the MPO with minimal or no assistance.

    -Perhaps with the design and layout of the city streets and hydrants use of the backstretch might be more benefical than just laying out the biggest type of hose we can afford to buy. It all depends on factors that to date are absent from this forum.

    LDH appears to being heralded as some savoir to their opertations in Charleston when no size of hose or nozzle or appliance will change anything if simple hydraulics aren't understood by their MPOs. It seems a bit premature to discuss LDH when the supply issue might be better rectified (at least in the short term) by training and Chauffeur re-education.

    Perhaps a slight change in their hosebed with revised and reinforced water supply procedures would be the best course of action...hard to say once again since we are still waiting on the offical report.

    But I hope that brings to light some of the issues with LDH...and other possible options that have been perhaps overlooked somewhat in the discussion.

    FTM-PTB

  22. #297
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    -LDH blocks the street from incomming Ladders and support apparatus.
    -LDH and forward lays take manpower away from the stretch in the crucial inital stages of a fire, and most depts represented on these forums can't afford to loose a man to this task.
    -Once LDH is charged...changing positions is difficult at best...at least as compared to use of smaller more managable hose lines.

    -LDH creates a large failure point that is difficult to overcome for low staffed fire departments should the hose fail. This is as opposed to the backstrech where each line terminates independently at the pumping Engine and thus any failure in any one attack line doesn't threaten the rest of the operation and a failure in the short stretch of supply hose whatever it may be can easily be corrected by the MPO with minimal or no assistance.

    -Perhaps with the design and layout of the city streets and hydrants use of the backstretch might be more benefical than just laying out the biggest type of hose we can afford to buy. It all depends on factors that to date are absent from this forum.
    Good deal, thanks for bringing up those points. I knew there had to be more to it.

    Let me just reiterate that I'm not challenging Charleston's non-use of LDH. So perhaps this is not the right thread to discuss this... but, can't help myself.

    I think a lot of those issues could be addressed by training, pre-plans, drilling and a change in tactics. Issues about blocking streets and access are a good example of how training and drilling could avoid some of those issues.

    We don't *normally* lay in with the first due engine. We drop the supply line off the second and/or third due engine. This helps with other arriving units.

    Of course, we have larger booster tanks than most city rigs (750 gal) and now we have CAFS available... so like I said and you alluded to, tactics definitly plays into this.

    The only time i've seen LDH fail was because some knucklehead plowed over it. However, this would've taken out all the lines laid out.. Also, if you only laid a single or double lay, what kind of manpower will it take to reverse lay more?

    You bring up valid points, but I would rather have the volume. I think we've all heard that One 5" LDH will flow roughly the same amount as six 2.5" cotton jacketed hose. Can't beat that when you need it.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  23. #298
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Fair questions.

    First consider these issues that have been discussed frequently on these forums and based on my work experience and travels...I would say they hold true for the most part.

    1. Most people seem partial to forward lays to the point that many are unfamiliar with or unconfortable with the reverse (backstretch) despite it being a standard and basic Engine Evolution since the begining of the modern fire service (and even before in many of the larger older cities which became the origin for many smaller depts operational styles.) This fact alone might account for the obvious oversight by these experts who's depts most likely aren't familiar or well versed in all facets of Engine co. evolutions.

    2. Most in addition to the above also fail to test a hydrant before committing to it with LDH. This is seen usually every winter multiple times in the Fh.com news when frozen hydrants foul up the operations of departments dependent on forward lays and preconnects.

    We've not seen what Charlestons Engine ops consist of...not one mention of their procedures and if the ones already in place were even followed at the Sofa fire. To suggest a complete overhaul and redesign of their hosebed (and thus possibly their Engine operations) with no more than a week spent by these "experts" is a bit questionable.

    -LDH blocks the street from incomming Ladders and support apparatus.
    -LDH and forward lays take manpower away from the stretch in the crucial inital stages of a fire, and most depts represented on these forums can't afford to loose a man to this task.
    -Once LDH is charged...changing positions is difficult at best...at least as compared to use of smaller more managable hose lines.

    -LDH creates a large failure point that is difficult to overcome for low staffed fire departments should the hose fail. This is as opposed to the backstrech where each line terminates independently at the pumping Engine and thus any failure in any one attack line doesn't threaten the rest of the operation and a failure in the short stretch of supply hose whatever it may be can easily be corrected by the MPO with minimal or no assistance.

    -Perhaps with the design and layout of the city streets and hydrants use of the backstretch might be more benefical than just laying out the biggest type of hose we can afford to buy. It all depends on factors that to date are absent from this forum.

    LDH appears to being heralded as some savoir to their opertations in Charleston when no size of hose or nozzle or appliance will change anything if simple hydraulics aren't understood by their MPOs. It seems a bit premature to discuss LDH when the supply issue might be better rectified (at least in the short term) by training and Chauffeur re-education.

    Perhaps a slight change in their hosebed with revised and reinforced water supply procedures would be the best course of action...hard to say once again since we are still waiting on the offical report.

    But I hope that brings to light some of the issues with LDH...and other possible options that have been perhaps overlooked somewhat in the discussion.

    FTM-PTB
    FFFRED,

    Your reasoning on the reverse stretch is right on the mark. I think that reverse stretches are kind of a lost art in most places now. Reverse stretches allow Detroit to place the truck in front and the rescue right behind it. The 2nd and 3rd engines will always back down in case more attack lines are needed or for supply lines to the aerial. It also allows for that extra firefighter for attack. In the majority of places they can barely get a rig down the street and they would have more problems with LDH because of the width of those residential streets. The only time Detroit uses LDH is when they use the platforms and 99% of the time that is on a main 4 lane roadway. The cost of converting is way to high for Detroit anyway. They can barely afford to buy apparatus let alone LDH. As far as the CFD operations go, I'd wait for the full report to come out.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 09-05-2007 at 02:57 PM.

  24. #299
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Good deal, thanks for bringing up those points. I knew there had to be more to it.

    Let me just reiterate that I'm not challenging Charleston's non-use of LDH. So perhaps this is not the right thread to discuss this... but, can't help myself.

    I think a lot of those issues could be addressed by training, pre-plans, drilling and a change in tactics. Issues about blocking streets and access are a good example of how training and drilling could avoid some of those issues.
    Can you explain how one can avoid blocking off a street with 5 inch hose by increasing drilling? Your suggestion is a bit vauge and doesn't seem realisitc..perhaps I'm missing something.

    We don't *normally* lay in with the first due engine. We drop the supply line off the second and/or third due engine. This helps with other arriving units.

    Of course, we have larger booster tanks than most city rigs (750 gal) and now we have CAFS available... so like I said and you alluded to, tactics definitly plays into this.
    It all varries and much of it as it does with your description what your procedures are in place.

    The only time i've seen LDH fail was because some knucklehead plowed over it. However, this would've taken out all the lines laid out.. Also, if you only laid a single or double lay, what kind of manpower will it take to reverse lay more?
    Many vehicles can get high centered on LDH...most will rollover 2 1/2 in a backstrech with little issue. (not that it isn't an issue...but the two situations are much different...seen it myself.)

    One LDH line compromised places all lines and in some cases the entire operation into jeopardy whereas a backstrech allows for lines to remain in service if one should burst...goes back to not placing all eggs in one basket.

    Not sure what you mean by a single lay or double lay...but as I discussed on another thread...the manpower efficency gained by the hose stretch is 25 to 50%! and your manpower use is allowed to focus on the stretch into the building. Later arriving companies will have to stretch from that Engine or another at a different hydrant...the manpower once again isn't wasted on a guy sitting at a hydrant and still gets you the most water and pump efficency from the hydrant.

    All of this depends on Charlestons Hydrants which I don't recall what it was when I was there on vacation and no one has cited their offical spacing.

    Other options included dropping a second line for the 2nd Due which only takes seconds and wouldn't be much to ask.

    You bring up valid points, but I would rather have the volume. I think we've all heard that One 5" LDH will flow roughly the same amount as six 2.5" cotton jacketed hose. Can't beat that when you need it.
    If you want volume and effiency in your pump...placing it at the hydrant with a small 10ft to 35ft connection of your choosing will provide much more volume if all other factors are constant. We are afterall speaking of typical fires in an urban city with hydrants at regular intervals.

    But as with everything else...it could be an option that it appears many aren't discussing out of ignorance of basic Engine evolutions.

    FTM-PTB

  25. #300
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Why are you so obsessed with finding out everyone's location or assignment! It's not relevant to the debate nor is it relevant to you! If you want to know such information try hitting the member's profile button or send a private message! Stop clogging the threads up!
    Who made you the traffic cop of the forums?

    You still haven't the question yourself. There are a lot of "wannabees" out there and small town jakes who think they should be running the FDNY.

    If you are legit, then you'll have no problem stating which FD you are affiliated with.

    I'm with the City of Marlborough, MA, Deputy Chief on Group 3. If you want to know my real name, google the City's website and click on the fire department link. Many here know who I am.

    Tell me, Batt 18.. how hard was that?



    As for devildog4, someone did a little sleuthing and came up with this for him..

    As for myself, I am a Federal Firefighter in San Diego. Previous to that I was a DOD contract Firefighter/EMT overseas.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. New Nest for the Eagles & Condors !
    By RetJaxFF in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-29-2007, 08:44 PM
  2. F-16 crashes in Charleston, SC **pics**
    By sconfire in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-22-2005, 08:47 AM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 03-07-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-08-2005, 10:07 PM
  4. RFP's
    By D Littrell in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-08-2000, 06:36 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-06-1999, 10:13 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register