1. #301
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Who made you the traffic cop of the forums?

    You still haven't the question yourself.
    No Chief .... actually YOU were the one asking us all the questions!

  2. #302
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post

    We don't *normally* lay in with the first due engine. We drop the supply line off the second and/or third due engine. This helps with other arriving units.
    Chief, I would be interested to know what your SOP says on this. I am sure you have it covered but I was just wondering how you decide exactly who is laying in? Is a three engine response your standard?

  3. #303
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    ChiefKN,I too have a little hose experience and I beg to differ on your assessment of 2.5 vs 5. In a pinch,two ff's can load 2.5.Without a roll or hose roller I don't see that happening often with 5.Maybe my guys don't know how to do it.One ff can lug a roll of 2.5 pretty easy.I don't see that happening with 5.Of course all our LDH is coupled 100' so that factors in.We also use a reel truck so multiple lays can happen almost instantly,an Engine lays in the Reel comes the other way and lays out.Am I touting 2.5 as superior to LDH? Not at all,I'm just making some generalizations based on a lot of fire activity in my earlier career with 2.5 and knowing it's capabilities and limitations.And todays hose has flow characteristics far superior to the hose of that era.Since this thread is about Charleston,and since it was mentioned about 2.5 feeders that's why I made comment on ways to make 2.5 more effective.Assuming that LDH wasn't available or used.As we are currently switching to 5" from 4",I also have a clue as to the price of fittings and adapters and they are NOT cheap.And we're only a twelve piece dept.T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-05-2007 at 04:37 PM.

  4. #304
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Chief, I would be interested to know what your SOP says on this. I am sure you have it covered but I was just wondering how you decide exactly who is laying in? Is a three engine response your standard?
    Standard response is 3 engines/aerial and tender if needed. Confirmed fire we get a FAST engine and an engine/aerial/rescue added.

    First due has 500' of 5 inch with 750 gallon booster tank and was just retrofitted with CAFS.

    Other engines have 1200' of 5 inch with 1000 gallon booster tanks.
    Some 3" on the engines and 1.75" handlines.
    ===============
    You've uncovered a weakness in our SOP's. We don't have an SOP that states which engine will drop the line. Lame excuse is that in my year and a half as Department Chief, I've re-written all of the existing SOP's and added about 12 more. Just haven't gotten to this level of detail yet and i'm trying hard not to overwhelm the firefighters with policies too quickly.
    ===============
    We're a suburban department. Our district ranges from large industrial complexes with great hydrants to little dirt roads with shotgun shacks that have no hydrants.

    I would say that we have pre-plans to make up for this lack of standardized procedure, but that would be duplicitious. We don't have pre-plans that would be beneficial in this way.

    SO...where does that leave us. It's going to be a call by the commander to issue those orders based on what he finds and what resources he has or has asked for.

    The majority of our district does not have hydrants, so we perform tender shuttle or drafting a lot. We have laid long stretches in the past!

    That's why, for me, i'm trying not to tie my enthusiasm for LDH to the debate about if it would work for Charleston. BIG difference in my district and the city of Charleston. I'm sure.
    ================
    Question was asked about how you can avoid blocking a street by drilling. You have the chaffuer lay the hose and keep to the same side as the plug. Can it always be done, no, but usually you can leave room for other units. I have some very narrow streets and we have been able to avoid this problem.
    ================
    "One LDH line compromised places all lines and in some cases the entire operation into jeopardy whereas a backstrech allows for lines to remain in service if one should burst...goes back to not placing all eggs in one basket."
    Valid point, but i've never seen it happen, and 5" rarely fails so catastrophically. I guess there is no way to totally remove the risk. So is it your practice to ALWAYS lay two lines, if not then there really is no difference.
    ===================
    "If you want volume and effiency in your pump...placing it at the hydrant with a small 10ft to 35ft connection of your choosing will provide much more volume if all other factors are constant. We are afterall speaking of typical fires in an urban city with hydrants at regular intervals."
    Agreed. So close to the hydrant isn't an issue. It's where the other end of that supply line terminates that is the issue.

    I never stated that my post was in reference to urban firefighting and went out of my way to distance my post from the city of Charleston (sorry for the confusion).
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  5. #305
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    ChiefKN,I too have a little hose experience and I beg to differ on your assessment of 2.5 vs 5. In a pinch,two ff's can load 2.5.Without a roll or hose roller I don't see that happening often with 5.Maybe my guys don't know how to do it.One ff can lug a roll of 2.5 pretty easy.I don't see that happening with 5.Of course all our LDH is coupled 100' so that factors in.We also use a reel truck so multiple lays can happen almost instantly,an Engine lays in the Reel comes the other way and lays out.Am I touting 2.5 as superior to LDH? Not at all,I'm just making some generalizations based on a lot of fire activity in my earlier career with 2.5 and knowing it's capabilities and limitations.And todays hose has flow characteristics far superior to the hose of that era.Since this thread is about Charleston,and since it was mentioned about 2.5 feeders that's why I made comment on ways to make 2.5 more effective.Assuming that LDH wasn't available or used.As we are currently switching to 5" from 4",I also have a clue as to the price of fittings and adapters and they are NOT cheap.And we're only a twelve piece dept.T.C.
    We also have 5" in 100' lengths racked flat.

    We don't break the lay and roll the five inch to load it. We drive down the road and reload as we go.

    We have two FF's on the bed and two or three walking behind the engine on the ground near the tailboard. As the engine drives next to the lay, they pass the hose up to the FF's on top and they lay it out in the bed.

    Very often the engine does not have to stop and can just roll along. We've become very efficient at it.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  6. #306
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Our units and policies sound quite similar although often we find we need to break the LDH every so often to get all the water out.The Reel eclipses that however,just three required to load all 3200'.What's your policy on carrying the 100'? We require a minimum of two ff's. T.C.

  7. #307
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    ===============
    You've uncovered a weakness in our SOP's. We don't have an SOP that states which engine will drop the line. Lame excuse is that in my year and a half as Department Chief, I've re-written all of the existing SOP's and added about 12 more. Just haven't gotten to this level of detail yet and i'm trying hard not to overwhelm the firefighters with policies too quickly.
    ===============
    We're a suburban department. Our district ranges from large industrial complexes with great hydrants to little dirt roads with shotgun shacks that have no hydrants.
    Chief I don't think you will be alone in that respect! no excuses needed in this case either. It sounds as if you have a major workload on your hands.

    Important -

    I do however think it is important to 'SOP' the supply line in some way, where at all possible, by pre-assigning responsibility for it in the first place. If the on-scene commander wants to alter the response for a genuine and viable reason then he is held accountable and must justify that decision.
    At the Charleston fire there were several engines responding and the supply was called for by an on-scene commander. No second guessing here but in a similar hypothetical situation, the IC may have too many things to deal with and the supply line may therefore be assigned late in the response.

  8. #308
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Our units and policies sound quite similar although often we find we need to break the LDH every so often to get all the water out.The Reel eclipses that however,just three required to load all 3200'.What's your policy on carrying the 100'? We require a minimum of two ff's. T.C.
    Actually, we try to use gravity and look for any elevation changes in the lay.

    When you let the water out of one end, cap the uphill end. The draining water helps to flatten the hose and you shouldn't have to break the hose very often.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  9. #309
    the 4-1-4
    Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Who made you the traffic cop of the forums?

    I stand with Chief Gonzo, ChicagoFF, and FFFRed with this issue. There are a lot of troublemakers on these forums, and there is no accountability with registration on who you are or where you are from.

    I'm easy enough to find as well, some on here have even contacted my departmental administration about my posts; real nice, but do please look me up in town. A cold beer or two is awfully good, and I don't drink Miller, Sprecher is a far better choice.

    Let us know who you are batt18, and devildog. Bat18 sounds an awful lot like an Englishman though, not many of us uneducated types use the word 'whilst', nor do we "attend" fires in the States.

  10. #310
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    I stand with Chief Gonzo, ChicagoFF, and FFFRed with this issue. There are a lot of troublemakers on these forums, and there is no accountability with registration on who you are or where you are from.

    I'm easy enough to find as well, some on here have even contacted my departmental administration about my posts; real nice, but do please look me up in town. A cold beer or two is awfully good, and I don't drink Miller, Sprecher is a far better choice.

    Let us know who you are batt18, and devildog. Bat18 sounds an awful lot like an Englishman though, not many of us uneducated types use the word 'whilst', nor do we "attend" fires in the States.
    Maybe Batt 18 jots down notes "whilst attending" fires....
    as a spectator behind the fire line tape, or maybe he wants to impress us with his command of her Royal Majesty's English...

    To quote another famous Queen of England...

    We are NOT amused.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  11. #311
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    I am only here to ask one queston .........Lt.......does Detroit Fire have LDH ?I am merely curious, something I guess I take for granted that most places have it.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  12. #312
    Forum Member
    FDAIC485's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeast aka Dixie
    Posts
    653

    Default

    I think before anyone volunteers their $0.02 on Charleston Fire they should visit http://www.firefighterhourly.com to get a true sense of CFD culture and problems that exist.
    Last edited by FDAIC485; 09-05-2007 at 08:31 PM.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  13. #313
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    11

    Default

    The simple task of identifying where youre from then lends credibility towards your imput. FF Joe Blow from nowhere USA whose local consist of old farm homes has little to no credibility towards high rise jobs. But, on the other hand, I might tend to take advice on barn fires from him rather than the guy across the floor from me.

    So incase you cant figure it out. Philly means Philadelphia, and not the one in Arkansas.

  14. #314
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Not sure who you're responding to but a few comments...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    ================
    Question was asked about how you can avoid blocking a street by drilling. You have the chaffuer lay the hose and keep to the same side as the plug. Can it always be done, no, but usually you can leave room for other units. I have some very narrow streets and we have been able to avoid this problem.
    ================
    Not to mention that it's entirely acceptable for apparatus to carefully drive over most manufacturer's charged LDH... Smart placement will reduce the liklihood for later arriving apparatus to need to drive over LDH but the option is available if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    ===================
    "If you want volume and effiency in your pump...placing it at the hydrant with a small 10ft to 35ft connection of your choosing will provide much more volume if all other factors are constant. We are afterall speaking of typical fires in an urban city with hydrants at regular intervals."
    Agreed. So close to the hydrant isn't an issue. It's where the other end of that supply line terminates that is the issue.
    A valid point. Personally, I prefer to have the pumping engine closer to the fire. A reverse lay is always an option in the toolbox but it's not my preferred option if it means dropping a skid load or somesuch in the street. If I'm going to need to station an engine at the hydrant, I'd rather have it pumping in-line to another engine at the fire -- not feeding overly long handlines or a "phantom pumper" somewhere down the road. LDH reduces the need to place an engine at the hydrant dramatically over using smaller limited volume supply lines.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  15. #315
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default from todays news ........WTF ........total BS !

    Charleston Sofa Store Owner Tells His Side

    It has been more than two months since the flames at the Sofa Super Store went out, but the memory of the nine firemen who died in the blaze have stayed with store owner Herb Goldstein ever since.

    "I went from having a perfect life that couldn't have been better to total misery now," he said Tuesday. "I can't relax. I can't eat. I can't sleep. I can't enjoy my grandkids."

    Beyond his own nightmares, Goldstein realizes the friends and family of the dead firemen have had to live the last 11 weeks in a state much worse.

    "I didn't lose any loved ones," said Goldstein, 65. "I can't imagine what the families of the firefighters are going through."

    In his first in-depth interview since the June 18 blaze, Goldstein agreed to talk with the press to clear up what he said were misconceptions in the wake of the nation's largest loss of firefighters since the 9/11 terror attacks.

    He came forward now, he said, to get his side of the story out, though he remains mentally drained and is easily prone to emotion.

    First and foremost, Goldstein insists he didn't intentionally allow a fire hazard to exist at a store where he and dozens of his employees worked.

    If anyone -- be it a city fireman or building inspector -- had told him the building was unsafe, he would have done something about it, he said.

    But that didn't happen at any point before the fire during any inspection visit.

    "Right or wrong, I depended on the fire department to make me aware of any potential problems," he said.

    "Had I known there was a danger, I would have corrected them immediately."

    Goldstein isn't pointing fingers; he just contends that no one made him aware.

    Since the fire, numerous investigations have been launched into the blaze, including reviews of the Charleston Fire Department's procedures, tactics and equipment. But the city also has raised several points of concern about how the store was set up, including some that could be cited as code violations. Some of the problem areas include a building addition that was constructed without permits; improperly functioning release locks on fire doors; and at least one back door that Goldstein said was locked with a padlock at night to thwart break-ins.

    "We've done it that way for years," he said.

    The deck addition came in stages, and, again, Goldstein said he never was told it was improperly done. He also said he counted on the installers of the fire doors to tell him to monitor the fusible links, which are like small pins that burn through when they reach a certain temperature, allowing a door to close.

    A city building inspector found that three of the building's seven overhead fire doors failed to close during the fire.

    Goldstein said the door's installers should have done a better job of telling him to monitor them.

    None of the deficiencies have been identified as absolutely contributing to the deaths of the nine men.

    Goldstein said that in hindsight, he wished he put sprinklers in the building. But they were expensive, he said, and weren't required when he opened his Savannah Highway flagship store in 1992.

    "No one said this is a dangerous product and you need sprinklers," he said.

    Goldstein also said he has no firm notion of what started the fire, although some have speculated an employee's cigarette is what provided the spark.

    "I think everyone is satisfied that this is an accident," he said.

    The wreckage of the store is being kept in place on authority of his insurance company so that anyone wishing to retrieve evidence or inspect the site can still do so. Goldstein doesn't expect the debris to stay there much longer.

    Since the fire, Goldstein said most people have been sympathetic to him about the tragedy, and for the firemen who survived, he said he remains awed by their devotion.

    "We can't tell you how much we appreciate what you do and that your courage is just amazing," he said.

    To those who died June 18, he said simply, "We'll never forget. They will always be in our hearts and prayers."
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  16. #316
    Forum Member
    FDAIC485's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeast aka Dixie
    Posts
    653

    Default

    And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  17. #317
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PhillyTruck18 View Post
    The simple task of identifying where youre from then lends credibility towards your imput.
    Personally, I find that what someone has to say goes a lot further towards gaining them credibility than where they (claim) to be on the job. Lord knows I've met enough "big city" firemen who I wouldn't trust to handle a waste basket fire unsupervised.

    While I'm mildly curious about where Batt18 is from, it's ultimately irrelevant. He's made some good points and "where he comes from" can serve no purpose other than as a launching point for strawman arguments or the usual personal attacks.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  18. #318
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,085

    Default

    I think if you are going to throw stones at other departments, you should open your dept up for scrunity also. Some here seem to have all the answers, so im sure that you have a perfect department.

  19. #319
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1 View Post
    I am only here to ask one queston .........Lt.......does Detroit Fire have LDH ?I am merely curious, something I guess I take for granted that most places have it.
    Some for Platform Ops, the rest is 2 1/2" supply/attack lines and 1 1/2' attack lines. Don't be shocked. The LDH turnover would be a HUGE outlay and it does comes down to money, regardless of reasons. To be honest the lines are fine for Detroit's situation because it is mostly residential, the commercials, industrial and high rises can and are handled effectively as well. I never had any personal complaints with using these lines and the deckies didn't have a complaint either (we did test 1 3/4" attack lines for a year, not recommended by the FF's). I would take new apparatus (just delivered) and more firefighters (they are talking about hiring again because staffing is so low) over LDH (this is the reality in Detroit). The FF's would like to have all new ultra modern equipment but the reality is..... not going to happen. The plus is that the guidelines and tactics are set up to match the urban environment/construction in Detroit and works well and effectively for them. Agree or not, this is DETROIT and the inmates are running the asylum.

    The firefighters in Detroit do a fantastic job with what they have and I was proud to have these firefighters with me. They're exceptional in my opinion (biased of course) and I still have pride in them and their team work attitude to this day.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 09-05-2007 at 11:25 PM.

  20. #320
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Personally, I find that what someone has to say goes a lot further towards gaining them credibility than where they (claim) to be on the job. Lord knows I've met enough "big city" firemen who I wouldn't trust to handle a waste basket fire unsupervised.

    While I'm mildly curious about where Batt18 is from, it's ultimately irrelevant. He's made some good points and "where he comes from" can serve no purpose other than as a launching point for strawman arguments or the usual personal attacks.
    Thanks Dep ... appreciated!

    These forums are about debate. If you tell me you are from some big inner city department with a heavy workload I will not be impressed ok! What will impress me is the quality of your debate and the way you address others on these forums. Its really as simple as that!

  21. #321
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireLt1951 View Post
    Some for Platform Ops, the rest is 2 1/2" supply/attack lines and 1 1/2' attack lines. Don't be shocked. The LDH turnover would be a HUGE outlay and it does comes down to money, regardless of reasons. To be honest the lines are fine for Detroit's situation because it is mostly residential, the commercials, industrial and high rises can and are handled effectively as well. I never had any personal complaints with using these lines and the deckies didn't have a complaint either (we did test 1 3/4" attack lines for a year, not recommended by the FF's). I would take new apparatus (just delivered) and more firefighters (they are talking about hiring again because staffing is so low) over LDH (this is the reality in Detroit). The FF's would like to have all new ultra modern equipment but the reality is..... not going to happen. The plus is that the guidelines and tactics are set up to match the urban environment/construction in Detroit and works well and effectively for them. Agree or not, this is DETROIT and the inmates are running the asylum.

    The firefighters in Detroit do a fantastic job with what they have and I was proud to have these firefighters with me. They're exceptional in my opinion (biased of course) and I still have pride in them and their team work attitude to this day.
    I am only an hour away from you and of course go to your city several times a year. I am aware of the uhmmmmmmmmmm not so good situation up there. I also recall you use the ol reverse lay more than most so I coud see where the 2.5" could be an advantage to you. Thanks again for the post and I hope retirement is treating you well.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  22. #322
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    ChiefKN,

    I think something is lost in translation or I'm not explaining myself clearly...probably a bit of both.

    You are mentioning laying in one or two lines in reference to my suggestions that LDH while one suggestion seems to have been a hasty recomendation that has overlooked another possible solution. The short time the pannel had to assess the dept certainly couldn't possibly enough to adequately examine their city and their operational procedures in place and what hose they had to begin with.

    Yet many just jumped on board here and proclaimed that they need LDH in Charleston. Maybe they do maybe they don't...we won't have a better idea until the full report is out and see what the reasoning is....I hope is it something more substantial than "this is what everyone else we know is using..."

    By backstretch or reverse stretch...I'm refering to dropping lines at the fire and then driving to the hydrant. I'm not sure what you mean by:
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN
    Agreed. So close to the hydrant isn't an issue. It's where the other end of that supply line terminates that is the issue.
    The supply line would only be 10,35 or perhaps a 50ft section of hose at most. Not sure what you mean by supply lines.

    The attack lines would be stretched off the rear and then be hooked to the pump pannel once the approriate amount of hose is removed. (obviously this only works in urban/suburban cities with generally regular hydrant placement)

    This is a gain in pump efficency and gain in manpower effiecency. Something that everyone on here finds important...especially lower staffed FDs.

    As for laying lines to one side of the street or the other...have you ever been to Charleston? There are many tight one way streets that the appratus will only fit down the middle without much clearance to either side. This is why I find it odd they suggest on going to LDH so soon...even a casual assesment would probably suggest looking at a Detroit/New York hose bed...or a combination and not a wholesale adoption of LDH.

    But that would require actually looking at what the FD has in terms of hose, City structure and layout and hydrant placement..etc. Something that I dare say can't be completed in a week...and have relevant suggestions less than a week later.

    Did this pannel look at that or consider that...or are they just transplanting what they are familiar with without actually examining the underlying issues?

    Lets pretend as some suggest their is a tremendous lack of understanding of basic hydraulics in the CFD. LDH or not...if a Depts MPOs don't understand water-in/water-out...then what is the use of changing hose sizes....you've accomplished nothing other than ensuring that bigger hoses will be improperly pumped!

    The full report needs to come out...these recomendations and some peoples blind support of them is premature. Perhaps that is why according to a post above the CFD isn't changing their supply lines yet. Perhaps they don't see the justification either.

    Sorry for the detour...but I just don't necessarily agree with the recomendations until the full report is issued and the justification and reasoning is provided.

    FTM-PTB

  23. #323
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    trotts -- as I have said before -- sweep off your own front steps first, sounds like you live in a glass house. I wonder how many injiries and LODDs are caused by knowitalls that cant perform basic fire ground tasks. In all honesty can you couple hose , use correct hose stream applications. and don your pack in a timely manner. If I was to bet , I would say NO -- guys like you have this excess of surface knowledge that you spew in all directions , but have no solid foundation of experence or true learning.
    And devildawg --- that statment about learning everything you need to know at the academy ---sure speaks volumes. Maybe you and trotts can join up with Donna C and take turns ----- being chief .
    Nothing like a sure bet. I'll take you up on it.

    Unlike the bet I made Tuesday after a few malted beverages- Jets over the Patriots - straight up. What the He!! was I thinking.

  24. #324
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I've yet to see anyone post any factual reason that CFD should be using 5" over the 2 1/2" they have. I've seen lots of theoretical comments, but nothing factual.

    What is their water supply system like?
    What is their hydrant configuration?
    Do they reverse lay and/or forward lay?
    Is it expected that the driver (or another FF) will have to manually drag supply hose back to a hydrant?

    There's much to be looked at other than simply saying LDH has less friction loss.
    Perhaps you should ask these guys

    The review team includes:

    --Gordon Routley, retired chief of the Shreveport Fire Department in Louisiana. Chief Routley will lead the six-member review team. He has good experience with fatal fire investigations.

    --Kevin Roche, an assistant fire marshal and assistant to the fire chief in Phoenix (AZ). He is considered an expert on firefighting equipment and research.

    --Tim Sendelbach, former chief of training for the city of Savannah (Ga.) Fire and Emergency Services. His role in the review will be focused on training issues. He is currently the President of the International Society of Fire Services Instructors.

    --Brian Crawford, assistant to the fire chief in Shreveport (La.) and a resident instructor at the National Fire Academy. Crawford, who holds a master's degree in industrial psychology, will focus on the department's administration and operations.

    --Mike Chiramonte, a fire inspector and former fire chief in Lynbrook, N.Y. His expertise is in fire prevention and fire codes.

    --Pete Piringer, public information officer for Montgomery County (MD) Fire and Rescue Service. He will oversee the review team's communications and public outreach efforts as well as advise the department on media relations and public information. He will serve as the Task Force spokesperson.

  25. #325
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Trotter,COMPREHENSION 101! Read my post carefully you FDA,NO WHERE did I say it took longer to LAY a 5" over 2.5". I SAID it took longer to pick it up(5"). I ALSO said to lay twin 2.5's would take a couple seconds longer than laying a single BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO UNSCREW ONE (1) COUPLING.Have I gone to pump training? Nah,I hold a MPO/Aerial card,Fire pumps 1,2, and advanced relay/ tanker and have been teaching pumps for over a quarter century.Still don't know much about it,maybe YOU could enlighten me how they work.I love the "you can't do it crowd".SOMETIMES you need to get the job DONE with what's at hand, not just sit crying in your Cheerios with the "if only I'd had a......,I'd have licked that job".While I was going to college we were running third alarms into Portland,where they were burning the waterfront flat building by building.I had the good fortune to work quite a lot with a Portland Fire Lt. named Don Whitney,perhaps you've heard of him? Or Dana Asdourian? And,could you believe it,all that fire and not a stitch of LDH to be seen. Oh,it's there now, but it's pretty amazing how much fire you can put out with a supply with 2.5 IF you know what you are doing.And,take it from a guy who KNOWS,it's a LOT more expensive to change over to LDH than you make it out to be.It's not as simple as picking up a few lengths and an adapter here and there year to year.To change over in Charleston would require a HUGE expense in fittings alone(so the LDH COULD work)never mind the expenditure in hose loads.Better try again. T.C.
    By the way, it doesn't take any longer to lay in 1000' of 2 1/2 as it does 5". Don't know if you have gone to a pump training school or not, but in those classes they go over the various hoses, how much will flow and what you can get. And actually, you should be able to get a book or some on-line instruction somewhere that will teach you this stuff.
    Reference bold print - neither did I. I happen to have agreed with you, why you all bent out of shape. But let's try this. If I have a 1000' lay, then I will need 2000' of 2 1/2" to get a double lay and only 1000' of 5" hose. And the 5" hose is capable of providing 3 times as much water. with less hose. In fact, given the situation mentioned here, the 5" hose would also be cheaper. Also, the storz fittings are much easier to work with than screw fittings. They are faster as well. Not that the difference between screw fittings and storz fittings is all that significant.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. New Nest for the Eagles & Condors !
    By RetJaxFF in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-29-2007, 09:44 PM
  2. F-16 crashes in Charleston, SC **pics**
    By sconfire in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-22-2005, 09:47 AM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 03-07-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-08-2005, 11:07 PM
  4. RFP's
    By D Littrell in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-08-2000, 07:36 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-06-1999, 11:13 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register