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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    You have to ask if cost is the real issue here. The Union (which many love here) made these recommendations in 2002 and the city and chief ignored them. Get real POLYESTER uniforms!!! Even this hick idiot know you don't wear polyester to a fire. Cotton is a much better choice.
    Yes, I trully believe cost is a MAJOR issue in regards to these changes. Time is another. Polyester uniforms is the last of their worries, as far as I'm concerned. The uniform I had on yesterday is 65% Poly, 35% cotton. does that make my department unconcerned about my safety? As far as I'm concerned, if I'm relying on my uniform for protection, I've got a LOT more to worry about because my bunkers are gone.

    The question should be How many 1 3/4" lines can I supply wit hone 2 1/2"? Running dual supply lines is a nice option, but it takes time to run a second line. And when the fire is in the incipient stage we don't have a lot of time. Instead of having two guys packed up and running an attack line we have two guys running a second supply line. Cost is one issue. The real issue is resource management.
    What time does it take to lay a second line? I've layed many a dual supply line (5" and 3" is what we use). It takes only seconds longer. Even if we put a single 5" supply on the ground, we still screw on a gate valve to the 3" discharge of the hydrant. Aside from that, I have yet to see any difinitive evidence that only single supply lines were laid.

    I would venture a guess that no one has seen this or even heard of it; NFPA 1250: Recommended Practice in Emergency Service Organization Risk Management. It should be a mandatory read for all chiefs and optional for captains. After all, isn't running an organization like this all about risk management and providing a safe work place? Based on Chief Thomas's remarks I believe he was to nonchalant and to ingrained in tradition. However, his tune has changed. He went from he wouldn't change a thing to accepting a bunch of change. It might be a case of too little too late.
    Heard of it, seen it, have a copy at headquarters. However, it's a tool, just like anything else. When it comes to risk management, there's many, many tools out there. I'll be the first to agree, Chief Thomas has had his head up his tail. It's nice to see the mayor and council forcing his hand. While it may be too little, too late for those 9, it's not for the future of CFD.

    It will be interesting to see if some of those things the Union asked for will be found to be contributing factors. For if they are, you certainly have the case for gross negligence.
    (Disclaimer: Opinion about to be voiced) Personnally, I predict decision-making will play a large factor. Something happened that caused a chain of events that progressed until the excriment hit the oscillating device and it was too late.

    Look into past LODD reports and you can see that there's typically a decision that was made that led to a chain reaction, or error chain as our training chief calls it. This is where we should be learning many of our lessons. Perhaps it was underestimating conditions, maybe it was not going defensive fast enough, hell it could have been the size of lines they chose to fight the fire. We just don't know at this point.


  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1 View Post
    Silly man .........if you split the hose bed you CAN lay dual 2 1/2's. Ever see Emergency ? and it will not do anything to increase time.
    And it was VERY cool to watch those lines come whipping off the bed.

    Ahh...the good ole days.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor View Post
    You claim to be a volunteer, so I guess every morning when you get dressed each and every time you make sure your clothes are all natural fiber in case you get a fire at some point in the day, huh?
    Actually, I don't own any Poly Ester. Makes it easy

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    [QUOTE=Weruj1;858946]
    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter;858924
    The question should be How many 1 3/4" lines can I supply wit hone 2 1/2"? Running dual supply lines is a nice option, but it takes time to run a second line. And when the fire is in the incipient stage we don't have a lot of time. Instead of having two guys packed up and running an attack line we have two guys running a second supply line. Cost is one issue. The real issue is resource management.[QUOTE

    Silly man .........if you split the hose bed you CAN lay dual 2 1/2's. Ever see Emergency ? and it will not do anything to increase time.
    OK, so assuming you do lay 2 - 2 1/2 lines. Now you have twice as much to pick up. And 2 - 2 1/2 lines won't give the same amount of water as 1 - 4" line. And what if you pull up and only lay 1 2 1/2" line thinking you didn't need more? If you are always going to lay 2 - 2 1/2 lines you would be way ahead of the game if you laid a single 4". Of course like anything, change is hard, especially with no planning. Just a question. How many departments have a 5 year plan in writing?

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Yes, I trully believe cost is a MAJOR issue in regards to these changes. Time is another. Polyester uniforms is the last of their worries, as far as I'm concerned. The uniform I had on yesterday is 65% Poly, 35% cotton. does that make my department unconcerned about my safety? As far as I'm concerned, if I'm relying on my uniform for protection, I've got a LOT more to worry about because my bunkers are gone.
    My point was that cost probably was not the main reason for lack of change. Planning, though, and other motivational factors were more than likely missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    What time does it take to lay a second line? I've layed many a dual supply line (5" and 3" is what we use). It takes only seconds longer. Even if we put a single 5" supply on the ground, we still screw on a gate valve to the 3" discharge of the hydrant. Aside from that, I have yet to see any difinitive evidence that only single supply lines were laid.
    Again, this assumes that you are thinking far enough ahead to lay two lines. Having to go back to lay a second line takes time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    (Disclaimer: Opinion about to be voiced) Personnally, I predict decision-making will play a large factor. Something happened that caused a chain of events that progressed until the excriment hit the oscillating device and it was too late.

    Look into past LODD reports and you can see that there's typically a decision that was made that led to a chain reaction, or error chain as our training chief calls it. This is where we should be learning many of our lessons. Perhaps it was underestimating conditions, maybe it was not going defensive fast enough, hell it could have been the size of lines they chose to fight the fire. We just don't know at this point.
    Agree. But could that one decision have made differently had CFD stayed up to date with current standards and trends? This whole thing is just like the deal where someone dies at an intersection and then something is done about the dangerous intersection. Seems in too many instances someone has to die before anything is done.

  6. #266
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    [QUOTE=HotTrotter;859013... How many departments have a 5 year plan in writing?[/QUOTE]I'm guessing yours doesn't.

    And ours is written in pencil because it's updated every year.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #267
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    Trotter,here's another thinking excercise for you.See if you can follow along.Let's say your village hamlet/town/city doesn't HAVE any 4/5/6"hose.And they don't have any cash in the budget to buy any.Now let's just say this city(we'll use Charleston)is up to their whyzu in 2and1/2 inch hose.Now exactly how much inqenuity are you going to have to come up with to change your single lay bed(IF that's what you use)to a split lay bed? CORRECT ANSWER: NOT MUCH! and laying out takes little more time,just enough to break ONE connection.And better than twice the water.And picking up duece and a half is quicker than picking up LDH so if you use twice as much,well,let's look it as it another way.Still with me? We just doubled our available supply,we didn't have to really rework our rig,AND we didn't cost the City ONE RED CENT.So until the budget gets sufficently fat to rework all the rigs to accept and recieve LDH we've now doubled our ability to supply our rigs with an adequate incoming supply for the net sum of 0$.Pretty cool,huh? And if you screw up,and lay a single when you should have laid two?Well,that's what they make radios and second due apparatus for.Everybody slips once in awhile.T.C.

  8. #268
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    Default In all fairness I will post this news release

    So they go to larger attack lines, get rid of the polyester uniforms, now this. Things are looking better and better at CFD!

    Charleston, S.C Fire Command Staff Will Train at Montgomery County’s Command Development Center

    Incident Command Training – Recommendation of Fire Review Task Force
    Montgomery County Fire and Rescue Service Public Information Officer Pete Piringer has been part of a group of outside investigators reviewing firefighting practices, code enforcement, fire-rescue training and media relations in Charleston, South Carolina, where nine (9) firefighters died during a fire at a furniture store.

    Charleston, South Carolina Mayor Joseph P. Riley, Jr. recently commissioned six (6) fire-rescue professionals from around the country to examine the city's fire department and its handling of a fatal fire in June.

    The Sofa Super Store in Charleston, S.C. blaze killed nine firefighters. Riley has said there's much to be learned from the June 18th incident. It was the worst single loss of firefighters' lives in the nation since the September 11th terrorist attacks in 2001.

    The first phase, an analysis of procedure and practices, including media relations, was expected to take about a month, and any recommendations for change could be implemented in the short term. On August 17, 2007 the Fire Review Task Force released several immediate impact recommendations, most of which have been or are being implemented by the City of Charleston and the Charleston Fire Department (CFD). Several items recommended by the Task Force involved Incident Command.

    Montgomery County Fire Chief Tom Carr has offered his support to the CFD and will host CFD command leadership providing access to MCFRS senior staff. CFD Assistant Chiefs and Battalion Chiefs will participate along with MCFRS command officers as they begin command development training at the Montgomery County Public Safety Training Academy, in Rockville, Maryland.

    Specifically this will involve command competency training that includes classroom instruction, table top exercises and participation using the incident command simulator laboratory. Participants will study Incident Command theories and practices as it applies to structural firefighting, hazardous materials incidents and major, large scale fires. In addition, while in Montgomery County the CFD Chiefs will 'shadow' MCFRS counterparts responding to fires and other emergencies, as well as administrative duties. They will be housed in fire stations with their hosts.

    The review team is expected to gather in Charleston this week. A comprehensive report will be presented to the mayor and public safety command staff by the end of September 2007. Later the team will also assemble reports from the various federal, state and local investigations being conducted and compile that information into one report from which the city can work. This could take four months or longer.

    The review team includes:
    --Gordon Routley, retired chief of the Shreveport Fire Department in Louisiana. Chief Routley will lead the six-member review team. He has good experience with fatal fire investigations.
    --Kevin Roche, an assistant fire marshal and assistant to the fire chief in Phoenix (AZ). He is considered an expert on firefighting equipment and research.
    --Tim Sendelbach, former chief of training for the city of Savannah (Ga.) Fire and Emergency Services. His role in the review will be focused on training issues. He is currently the President of the International Society of Fire Services Instructors.
    --Brian Crawford, assistant to the fire chief in Shreveport (La.) and a resident instructor at the National Fire Academy. Crawford, who holds a master's degree in industrial psychology, will focus on the department’s administration and operations.
    --Mike Chiramonte, a fire inspector and former fire chief in Lynbrook, N.Y. His expertise is in fire prevention and fire codes.
    --Pete Piringer, public information officer for Montgomery County (MD) Fire and Rescue Service. He will oversee the review team's communications and public outreach efforts as well as advise the department on media relations and public information. He will serve as the Task Force spokesperson.

    Under the direction of Fire Chief Tom Carr, the Montgomery County (MD) Fire and Rescue Service, an Accredited Agency, is a full spectrum life safety agency protecting nearly 1 million people who live and work in Maryland’s most populous jurisdiction. The MCFRS is a combination system (career/volunteer), operating with a budget of about $200 million, comprised of over 1300 career uniformed personnel and professional civilian staff and an equal number of volunteers, nearly half of whom actively participate in emergency response. There are over forty fire and rescue facilities, including a 56 acre training academy, state-of-the-art communication facility, as well as thirty-four (34) community fire and rescue stations strategically located throughout Montgomery County’s 500 square miles in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area.

    The combined Charleston Fire Department and Montgomery County Fire and Rescue service training will involve a newly fashioned, state-of-the-art Command Development Center located at the Montgomery County (MD) Public Safety Training Academy (PSTA). This new ‘virtual reality’ simulator training center is one of only a few in the United States and the only such facility east of the Mississippi River. It also includes what is believed to be the largest fire and rescue tactical ‘table-top’ venue in the nation. Participants will be some of the first to use the Command Competency Center and learn about methodology and the process for a competency program.

    Montgomery County Command Officers will be joined by Charleston Assistant Chief Larry Garvin and Battalion Chiefs Joe Ackerman, Buddy Aytes, and Tommy Thomas. Hands-on training will begin on Wednesday, September 5. The Charleston Fire Department will be sending groups of four chiefs to Montgomery County for the next six weeks.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    So they go to larger attack lines, get rid of the polyester uniforms, now this. Things are looking better and better at CFD!

    Charleston, S.C Fire Command Staff Will Train at Montgomery County’s Command Development Center

    Incident Command Training – Recommendation of Fire Review Task Force
    Montgomery County Fire and Rescue Service Public Information Officer Pete Piringer has been part of a group of outside investigators reviewing firefighting practices, code enforcement, fire-rescue training and media relations in Charleston, South Carolina, where nine (9) firefighters died during a fire at a furniture store.

    Charleston, South Carolina Mayor Joseph P. Riley, Jr. recently commissioned six (6) fire-rescue professionals from around the country to examine the city's fire department and its handling of a fatal fire in June.

    The Sofa Super Store in Charleston, S.C. blaze killed nine firefighters. Riley has said there's much to be learned from the June 18th incident. It was the worst single loss of firefighters' lives in the nation since the September 11th terrorist attacks in 2001.

    The first phase, an analysis of procedure and practices, including media relations, was expected to take about a month, and any recommendations for change could be implemented in the short term. On August 17, 2007 the Fire Review Task Force released several immediate impact recommendations, most of which have been or are being implemented by the City of Charleston and the Charleston Fire Department (CFD). Several items recommended by the Task Force involved Incident Command.

    Montgomery County Fire Chief Tom Carr has offered his support to the CFD and will host CFD command leadership providing access to MCFRS senior staff. CFD Assistant Chiefs and Battalion Chiefs will participate along with MCFRS command officers as they begin command development training at the Montgomery County Public Safety Training Academy, in Rockville, Maryland.

    Specifically this will involve command competency training that includes classroom instruction, table top exercises and participation using the incident command simulator laboratory. Participants will study Incident Command theories and practices as it applies to structural firefighting, hazardous materials incidents and major, large scale fires. In addition, while in Montgomery County the CFD Chiefs will 'shadow' MCFRS counterparts responding to fires and other emergencies, as well as administrative duties. They will be housed in fire stations with their hosts.

    The review team is expected to gather in Charleston this week. A comprehensive report will be presented to the mayor and public safety command staff by the end of September 2007. Later the team will also assemble reports from the various federal, state and local investigations being conducted and compile that information into one report from which the city can work. This could take four months or longer.

    The review team includes:
    --Gordon Routley, retired chief of the Shreveport Fire Department in Louisiana. Chief Routley will lead the six-member review team. He has good experience with fatal fire investigations.
    --Kevin Roche, an assistant fire marshal and assistant to the fire chief in Phoenix (AZ). He is considered an expert on firefighting equipment and research.
    --Tim Sendelbach, former chief of training for the city of Savannah (Ga.) Fire and Emergency Services. His role in the review will be focused on training issues. He is currently the President of the International Society of Fire Services Instructors.
    --Brian Crawford, assistant to the fire chief in Shreveport (La.) and a resident instructor at the National Fire Academy. Crawford, who holds a master's degree in industrial psychology, will focus on the department’s administration and operations.
    --Mike Chiramonte, a fire inspector and former fire chief in Lynbrook, N.Y. His expertise is in fire prevention and fire codes.
    --Pete Piringer, public information officer for Montgomery County (MD) Fire and Rescue Service. He will oversee the review team's communications and public outreach efforts as well as advise the department on media relations and public information. He will serve as the Task Force spokesperson.

    Under the direction of Fire Chief Tom Carr, the Montgomery County (MD) Fire and Rescue Service, an Accredited Agency, is a full spectrum life safety agency protecting nearly 1 million people who live and work in Maryland’s most populous jurisdiction. The MCFRS is a combination system (career/volunteer), operating with a budget of about $200 million, comprised of over 1300 career uniformed personnel and professional civilian staff and an equal number of volunteers, nearly half of whom actively participate in emergency response. There are over forty fire and rescue facilities, including a 56 acre training academy, state-of-the-art communication facility, as well as thirty-four (34) community fire and rescue stations strategically located throughout Montgomery County’s 500 square miles in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area.

    The combined Charleston Fire Department and Montgomery County Fire and Rescue service training will involve a newly fashioned, state-of-the-art Command Development Center located at the Montgomery County (MD) Public Safety Training Academy (PSTA). This new ‘virtual reality’ simulator training center is one of only a few in the United States and the only such facility east of the Mississippi River. It also includes what is believed to be the largest fire and rescue tactical ‘table-top’ venue in the nation. Participants will be some of the first to use the Command Competency Center and learn about methodology and the process for a competency program.

    Montgomery County Command Officers will be joined by Charleston Assistant Chief Larry Garvin and Battalion Chiefs Joe Ackerman, Buddy Aytes, and Tommy Thomas. Hands-on training will begin on Wednesday, September 5. The Charleston Fire Department will be sending groups of four chiefs to Montgomery County for the next six weeks.
    What department do you work for? What city do you protect? What is your experience with this, or any, kind of fire? Why are you still ducking?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  10. #270
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    4th... For the life of me I cant figure out why you seem to be defending this POS Mayor and his fire chief.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    4th... For the life of me I cant figure out why you seem to be defending this POS Mayor and his fire chief.
    You've got me all wrong. I'm not defending anyone. I'm on my own little tangent - which is, who is this arrogant jagoff "from the great state of California"


    Remember, we are in a dangerous profession and listening to these audios, I AM PROUD TO BE A FIREFIGHTER IN THIS GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA which takes the incident command sysytem very seriously!
    It is just an annoying attitude so I wanted to know something about him, and he refuses to answer.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  12. #272
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    Default Just checking

    Ok... Because that mayor AINT a friend of firemen. Jag away.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  13. #273
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    ChicagoFF:

    Look, where I work or what my experience is does not matter. I posted something positive that CFD is finally doing. It is about time. Shame it had to come to this before they made some changes.

    Mikey: Both the Mayor and Chief are mutts.

    California IS a great State, and the ICS system IS taken very seriously here. Sorry if you have a problem with that ChicagoFF. Maybe the bottom line is progressive vs traditional?

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    ChicagoFF:

    Look, where I work or what my experience is does not matter. I posted something positive that CFD is finally doing. It is about time. Shame it had to come to this before they made some changes.

    Mikey: Both the Mayor and Chief are mutts.

    California IS a great State, and the ICS system IS taken very seriously here. Sorry if you have a problem with that ChicagoFF. Maybe the bottom line is progressive vs traditional?
    Where you work does matter. Are you a 3/20 firefighter?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    ChicagoFF:

    Look, where I work or what my experience is does not matter. I posted something positive that CFD is finally doing. It is about time. Shame it had to come to this before they made some changes.

    Mikey: Both the Mayor and Chief are mutts.

    California IS a great State, and the ICS system IS taken very seriously here. Sorry if you have a problem with that ChicagoFF. Maybe the bottom line is progressive vs traditional?
    Yes, it does matter. You started this thread bashing a department that had lost 9 of their brothers. You shined a big light on their shortcomings in a public forum. So yes we would like to know what department you represent and what your experience is.

    As for switching to LDH I am sure there is much more expense involved than just writing a check. If Charleston is like any other city any expenditure of that amount has to be first approved by the legislative branch of government and included in the budget (knocking out other items in the entire city budget, may pass if there is enough room or does not affect "feel good" programs good for election time, you are dealing with politicians.)

    Then you have the purchasing department. They need specs on the LDH for the bids. Need to put ads in the paper three months to solicit the bids. Then you have to open and award the bid sign the contract and then maybe in two or three years you might have your hose. You can repeat the same process if you have to adapt your engines with the needed appliances to use the LDH or if you have to have all the hydrants re-threaded. The only guarantee is that you will have the lowest priced LDH that meets the minimum spec.

    Add all those overhead costs and the LDH costs a lot more than you think.

    Did I forget to add the training that will be needed in the department for using LDH? All that overtime.........

    Chief Gonz,
    My money is on a new certificate firefighter... or slept in a Holiday Inn Express.
    Last edited by lexfd5; 09-04-2007 at 11:03 PM.

  16. #276
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    Lexfd5:
    I didn't start this thread "bashing a department that had lost 9 of their brothers". Initially, I asked what people thought of the panels recommendations. Then I commented on the recommendations, which turned into my opinion of what went wrong, or more important, how things were done differently than what I know and what my experience has showed me.

    I have told people who were insulted that was not my intention, and apologized. Looking at what (in my opinion) were operational mistakes and shortcomings, and then posting from newspapers, blogs, former and current CFD members is not bashing anyone.

    We can wait for the final recommendations, but there has to be opinion about the panels preliminary recommendations made after just 4 days.
    Were things that obviously wrong? Is the panel on a witch hunt?

    BTW, I didn't start the whole LDH thing. Someone else did. I have commented on it. It sure would have been better then a single 2 1/2" supply line. Dual 2 1/2" would have been better as well. Look, water supply was an issue at this fire. We can all have an opinion, or speculate on what happened. I think, in the end, you will see that yes, an inadequate water supply was a major factor.

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    CaptainGonzo:

    Please tell me what I have posted (other than my opinion) that was factually wrong. If I am, I will stand corrected. Not going to argue with you about ten codes, RIT/RIC, catching hydrants, accountability, etc. None of those things take experience. Teach you at the academy. You can have a difference of opinion, but you don't need experience to have an opinion, or to ramble off standards.

    What do YOU think of the panel's recommendations? Let's try and keep on topic my friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    CaptainGonzo:

    Please tell me what I have posted (other than my opinion) that was factually wrong. If I am, I will stand corrected. Not going to argue with you about ten codes, RIT/RIC, catching hydrants, accountability, etc. None of those things take experience. Teach you at the academy. You can have a difference of opinion, but you don't need experience to have an opinion, or to ramble off standards.

    What do YOU think of the panel's recommendations? Let's try and keep on topic my friend.
    Hmmmmm.........truer words have never been spoken by someone so fitting.


    As for the panel's recommendations I think the vast majority is a bunch of fluff. Just because you do not have an SOP for wearing a seatbelt did not mean every CFD firefighter did not wear one. Maybe they did the right thing every time and did not need an SOP to belt up. Maybe it is the city of Charleston's work rule that when in a government vehicle you wear your belt. Why would you need an SOP then?

    My opinion on panels and any consultants is that they will tell the one who hired them what they want to hear. They do it to keep their job as consultants.

    And by the way all those things you say do not take experience and that you learned everything you needed to know in the academy shows your level of experience. The day you stop learning on this job should be the day you leave. I learn something new everyday on the job.
    Last edited by lexfd5; 09-05-2007 at 07:56 AM.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    ChicagoFF:

    Look, where I work or what my experience is does not matter. I posted something positive that CFD is finally doing. It is about time. Shame it had to come to this before they made some changes.

    Mikey: Both the Mayor and Chief are mutts.

    California IS a great State, and the ICS system IS taken very seriously here. Sorry if you have a problem with that ChicagoFF. Maybe the bottom line is progressive vs traditional?

    Sure it does big shot. You are proud to be from that state of illiegals and liberals we'd imagine you'd be proud of the FD you are presumably employed by.

    I work in New York and ChicagoFF works in, you guessed it Chicago...so what FD do you work for? Tick-tock-Tick-tock...

    I saw nothing posted by you that was positive...most of it was loaded with condecention and cryptic comments...then once called to answer to what you posted...you claimed you didn't necessarily agree with what you coppied from other web sites and you only wanted to bring a different perspective to these forums....now we see that by the above comments you did agree with the assertions of some other people and you just didn't have the b@lls to act like a man and support your position.

    As for the "progressive" comment...progressive might have meant something positive years ago...today it is a word ignorant fools like you hide behind to make yourselves feel good about the sillyness you attempt to justify as profesional firefighting.

    FTM-PTB

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    CaptainGonzo:

    Please tell me what I have posted (other than my opinion) that was factually wrong. If I am, I will stand corrected. Not going to argue with you about ten codes, RIT/RIC, catching hydrants, accountability, etc. None of those things take experience. Teach you at the academy. You can have a difference of opinion, but you don't need experience to have an opinion, or to ramble off standards.

    What do YOU think of the panel's recommendations? Let's try and keep on topic my friend.
    WHAT?!?!?!?

    You aren't going to argue "ten codes, RIT/RIC, catching hydrants, accountability, etc. None of those things take experience. Teach you at the academy. "

    Tell us what academy did you attend...mine was on Randals Island, Chicago's was at the Chicago Fire Academy on De Koven St....where prey tell did you attend that was so good that it is a substitute for expereince?

    I guess we are that much closer to understanding why you won't divulge your employing FD and why your comments have made many on here begin to think you are an insignifigant Johnny know-it-all with no time on the job.

    Every time I read your comments I thank god my family doesn't rely on you for fire protection.

    FTM-PTB

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