1. #26
    Forum Member
    KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Beautiful downtown Hortense, GA
    Posts
    745

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Why do you think the guys on scene didn't do those things? It was because that was the way the chief ran the department and allowed things to be done. Had the chief provided leadership and paid attention to what others were doing he would have fixed some of the problems before now. How come 9 brave guys had to die, and outside experts had to be brought in, before the chief would change anything?
    BRAVO-UNIFORM-LIMA-LIMA-SIERRA-HOTEL-INDIA-TANGO!!! You mean to tell me that a captain with 32 years of experience is going to be cowed and blindly follow the orders of a chief, even the chief of department, if it is something that he knows through those same years of experience is a deady situation waiting to happen??? You mean to tell me that a captain with that many years of experience isn't going to recognize the weakness in the system and devise tactics to work around them: No LDH? Lay out two 2.5's instead; not the ideal situation, but better than nothing. And how do all of you Day 2 Dan Marinos know that this didn't happen anyway? I have heard people on here and elsewhere saying thses men died because no one checked above the void space. HOW THE F%#&* DO YOU KNOW THEY DIDN'T?!?!? And again, who would have ben responsible for doing this, the Chief or the men inside? Anyone? And again, IF YOU KEEP THROWING BLAME FOR WHAT WAS DONE OR NOT DONE YOU ARE BLAMING THE DEAD, AND I'M %$##@ SICK OF IT. I have worked for a Chief that was less than stellar when it comes to leadership, equipment was lacking, morale was low, and manpower was slim but we as officers worked around all of that: the Chief didn't dictate tactics that we used to overcome the weaknesses, the chief didn't dictate the knowledge we gained to do more with less, and the Chief didn't tell what lines tostretch in what situations: that was what company officers are supposed to do for crying out loud!!!
    Let me tell all of you something: I am not from Charleston; the closest connection is I have a brother and sister-in-law who live there, but it is close enough to where I live to be considered my "back yard". I went to Charleston in the days after this happened, I stood in front of the rubble where these men die and imagined what they went through, I rode in that procession, and I stood in that coliseum saluting with tears in my eyes and I vowed to never forget these men. That vow includes not allowing anyone to sully their names in the interest of smug superiority. The favorite game here and on other forums is the "pile on Chief Thomas" game...I don't know the man, but do you think he came to work and pencilled in his day planner "Kill 9 men today?" Charleston isn't the only department that has suffered LODD's, but it is the only one I can remeber with this level of second-guessing and tsk-tsk-ing going on, and it sickens me. How come Charleston gets slammed and everywhere else gets the "RIP Brothers"? Don't the Charleston brothers and sisters left to carry on get to "RIP"? No, they get their department evicerated in a public forum. How do think that helps with the survivor guilt, huh? And speaking of the ICS: if it's such an end-all and do-all, tell me why we still have LODD's in places where it is used as the holy gospel. And I hear the tsk-tsk'ing about how "the scene descended into chaos": I dare anyone out there who says this to tell me what scene wouldn't or doesn't to some extent when you relieze you have people missing and possibly already dead. And establishing a RIT team? This started out as a dumpster fire and quickly turned into a structure fire. Tell me this DD and Trooter: does your department establish a RIT team for dumpster fires? Do you know for a fact that an incoming unit was not assigned to be a RIT truck verbally on arrival? If you can't answer either quation in the affirmative, then you need to hold off on your second guessing.

    I expect to get flamed for this post, and I may even get banned. But I am sick and tired of hearing the second guessing of the men and women of this department, both living and dead, that has gone on here and on the Charleston.net forums. As a career company officer I realize ever day that but by the grace of God I could be in the same position as those departed captains one day, and as a volunteer chief officer I pray to the same God that I never have to endure the pain Chief Thomas is right now. Does the Charleston Fire Department have problems that need to be addressed? Yes. Do we know that if thses problems didn't exist would the samething have happened? Only God knows that. Do each and every one us work for a department that has problems that need to be fixed, and could the same thing happen to us no matter how good the system? I will let you answer that one for yourself.

  2. #27
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    775

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by foxden6 View Post
    I could understand that - ISO is all about staffing and equipment. If you have the right number of FT firefighters on the rigs and the basic ISO-required tools/equipment - you get points and a Class 1.
    Nothing in ISO even addresses command, control and safety.
    AAAARRRRRGGHHH!!!!

  3. #28
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1

    Default

    I have seen or heard others say that maybe their water system can not handle L.D.H. My sincere question is , What facors would prevent you from bein able to us L.D.H. with a certain water system.
    The reason I ask is I have had this brought up before and can't find a legit reason for it.
    Thanks

    p.s Please don't take this a personal insult to anyone, just asking.

  4. #29
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chip2407 View Post
    I have seen or heard others say that maybe their water system can not handle L.D.H. My sincere question is , What facors would prevent you from bein able to us L.D.H. with a certain water system.
    The reason I ask is I have had this brought up before and can't find a legit reason for it.
    Thanks

    p.s Please don't take this a personal insult to anyone, just asking.
    Good question! LDH delivers more water and requires less pressure. How could that possibly be a bad thing? According to this logic, they should be using smaller diameter water mains, which is ridiculous. Some people are determined not to learn anything from this fire, and that's fine. Others will pick it apart in search of anything that might help them reduce the likelihood of contributing to another LODD. I have no respect for people who suggest that to question what happened is an insult to those who died. To NOT QUESTION what happened is a larger insult. The culture of the American fire service is backwards. Some of us realize it and are trying to do something about it. If you don't like that, or can't deal with it, too bad. These "how dare you criticize the dead" remarks are symptomatic of a deeper problem, and nothing more than a smoke screen to maintain the status quo by canonizing the dead in such a way that no lessons can be learned. I do not believe that Chief Thomas intended for anyone to die, but I do believe he made some unfortunate remarks immediately following the tragedy. I'm willing to assume good faith, and chalk it up to grief and the surreal pressure of being cast suddenly into the national spotlight. However, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and I don't think that Chief Thomas or anyone else is entitled to be the chief of a fire department. It's quite clear that Charleston Fire Department is in need of significant improvement, and from the comments I've seen at www.firefighterhourly.com a significant number of the rank and file are in agreement. If there is a leadership problem at CFD it should be corrected. The system doesn't serve the chief, the chief serves the system. Let the flames begin!

  5. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Can anyone tell me what the hell this has to do with these mens deaths?

    Reinforce the use of seat belts and standard emergency response vehicular operations
    Also since everyone is up in arms about the LDH...what is their current Engine operations policy(actual wording would be nice) How is it ineffective and how did the lack of LDH play a role in these men's deaths?

    FTM-PTB

  6. #31
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:34 PM.

  7. #32
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:34 PM.

  8. #33
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:35 PM.

  9. #34
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:35 PM.

  10. #35
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Updated: 08-17-2007 05:02:22 PM

    OK, without slamming them, how do you feel about these recommendations? Should some of them been in place in the year 2007? Without getting specific, I see a pretty good report making critically needed changes, some probably due long ago. RIP Brothers.
    All of it should have been in effect by now. Frankly, I was shocked that a department of their size is lacking in such basic things. These are things that the FDs around here have had in place for years.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  11. #36
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default You guys are unbelievable!

    Here is a fire that killed nine heroes .... but I am amazed that some of you guys aren't standing up for them!

    Lets get basic here ok .... 2 Engines and a Ladder respond to a commercial structure fire .... do they ALL go to the fire building? Hell no! There has to be a pre-assignment to bring water to the fire building right? C'mon Fred! That's how its done right?!

    Units arrive on-scene and size-up a developing fire spreading into the structure. The potential fire load is massive.

    They have 3 hydrants within 500 feet of the building ....

    The chiefs are calling for attack lines inside the building ....

    They call additional units to report straight to the building ....

    Then they call one engine additional to run in a supply line!

    Meanwhile a number of firefighters have been deployed to interior attack using booster lines .... 1 1/2" and 2 1/2" lines. The hydrant is eventually located and water is pumped to an engine on-scene using 2 1/2". The water barely reaches the scene and the attack supply is running out. They are called to pump the line to 250psi to get water at the fire. Hose-lines start to burst.

    There is no ICS and no genuine inter-agency liaison. The traffic is driving over the 2 1/2" supply lines and affecting the flow. There is no call to the police to re-route the traffic.

    Hey we are only in the first ten minutes and yet the attack lines have run dry !

    C'mon you tell me this tragedy is down to 'gods will'!! You guys (I note some of you are Chiefs) need to get into the real world!

  12. #37
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    I find it very amusing that some one from San Diego is talking down to others about outdated equipement.

    Also remember I do agree there are some good recomendations contained within this early report...however you sir are going about it the wrong way and really should take a step back and think before you speak...here are some quick issues I find with your statements and I'm sure you won't be able to answer many of them with any logic or experience...just more insults and arogance.

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Let's look at each recommendation and see how they tie in to the June 18, 2007 fire that killed nine firefighters:

    Establish Fire Department Safety Officer position.

    A safety chief arriving on scene, properly trained, could have called for an immediate withdrawal of firefighters. In fact, the safety chief would have prevented the deployment of small handlines for safety reasons.
    Considering where some of these guys hail from and that one panel members own dept regulations state that fog tips are to be utilized when operating off standpipes for "safety reasons"(PFD) one really has to question who these guys are and how vaild are their suggestions considering the shortfalls of the CFD when their own depts are failing to keep up with modern practices.

    Without getting to involved here the tactics and techniques in practice in Phoneix and Shreveport aren't exactly up to speed with those of many of this countries largest cities that have infinately more expereince with fire duty than these suburban communities.

    Just by reading the comments on here from accross the country...many would use 1 3/4 lines at a fire such as this (with fog tips) and most use the very same off standpipes despite the "national standard" and best practice being 2 1/2 (or similar large line) with smoothbores....what in the world makes you think a safety chief would have prevented the use of smaller lines...that tactic if nothing else falls in line with what most depts out in this country do...even in Cali.

    Apply incident command procedures on all incidents (ICS – NIMS procedures)

    This is a no-brainer. Incident command wasn't in place at the Sofa Super Store fire. Had it been there would have been significant alterations to early fire actions. A proper size-up would have been conducted and transmitted. More importantly firefighters would have been accounted for allowing for a rapid assessment of who was missing.
    We've been told ad nauseum that ICS has nothing to do with tactics and yet you claim the "fire actions" would have been changed "signifigantly"...how is this so?

    Reinforce appropriate use of personal protective clothing and SCBA.

    Any questions?
    Yes how did this factor lead to these men's deaths?

    Initiate and complete Incident Command and tactical operations training for all officers.

    This directly related to the June 18 fire. Incident Command and tactics didn't come into existence in the last week. These are basic items in use nationwide. Had they been used on the Sofa Super Store it's likely a different outcome would have resulted.
    Once again what does ICS have to do with tactics...we've been told they aren't related. And furthermore what are the correct "tactics" in use nationwide. I'll bet if any 6 men from my dept, Chicago and Boston were to review Phoneix or Shreveport...we could create a laundry list of issues that dwarfs this list by longshot.

    Increase initial structure fire response to three engines and one ladder.

    Utilize the third engine as the Rapid Intervention Team (RIT)
    A number of us would say this is the wrong thing to do...as the companies needed on the inital alarm should be put to work to assist in control of the fire and until the arrival of the RIT or FAST team certain members (predetermined) of the first few companies should be assigned this task in additon to their assigned fireground duties.

    See how easy it is to find fault with even the suggestions of these so called experts? Yet you accept them as if they were handed down on stone tablets to Moses from God himself...

    Communications changes including the elimination of 10 codes and the use of the tactical radio channel for responses.

    These need no comments. Think about the volume of water being brought to bear early in the fire. Consider the poor communications during the entire fire where a mixture of 10 codes and using one channel taxed the entire operation.
    Not sure what the amount of water has to do with this topic and furthermore I don't know how their 10-codes work...but it was proven by myself and many of my brothers that the issue of 10 codes is misunderstood in many cases and the dislike of them is misplaced as well. Refer to the topic of Vehicle numbering systems to see that 10-codes aren't really as big an issue as people view it to be....there are many other "coded" issues that would have to be delt with first.

    Changes in water supply standard operating procedures with near-term transition to large diameter supply hose.

    Use of 1-1/2 inch hose, or larger, for interior attack as well as vehicle fires.

    Changes to standard nozzle configuration and flow for all handlines

    All of these items have been discussed in previous posts.
    And we are still waiting on an explanation from you or anyone else what all of this means and what their current operations consist of and why they contributed to these men's deaths.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-20-2007 at 02:04 PM.

  13. #38
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Here is a fire that killed nine heroes .... but I am amazed that some of you guys aren't standing up for them!

    Lets get basic here ok .... 2 Engines and a Ladder respond to a commercial structure fire .... do they ALL go to the fire building? Hell no! There has to be a pre-assignment to bring water to the fire building right? C'mon Fred! That's how its done right?!

    Units arrive on-scene and size-up a developing fire spreading into the structure. The potential fire load is massive.

    They have 3 hydrants within 500 feet of the building ....

    The chiefs are calling for attack lines inside the building ....

    They call additional units to report straight to the building ....

    Then they call one engine additional to run in a supply line!

    Meanwhile a number of firefighters have been deployed to interior attack using booster lines .... 1 1/2" and 2 1/2" lines. The hydrant is eventually located and water is pumped to an engine on-scene using 2 1/2". The water barely reaches the scene and the attack supply is running out. They are called to pump the line to 250psi to get water at the fire. Hose-lines start to burst.

    There is no ICS and no genuine inter-agency liaison. The traffic is driving over the 2 1/2" supply lines and affecting the flow. There is no call to the police to re-route the traffic.

    Hey we are only in the first ten minutes and yet the attack lines have run dry !

    C'mon you tell me this tragedy is down to 'gods will'!! You guys (I note some of you are Chiefs) need to get into the real world!
    I just asked some questions...much of what you wrote, I have yet to see published anywhere.

    This is the info that is needed to make any assement of the suggestions of this pannel. Perhaps that would be a better approach then what some have done in bashing anyone who isn't from the Left-Coast.

    Thats all.

    FTM-PTB

  14. #39
    Forum Member
    BFDNJFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Iraq
    Posts
    1,508

    Default

    Well said FFFRED.
    ******=================
    ******================
    ******=================
    ******================
    =======================
    =======================
    =======================

    ------GOD BLESS AMERICA ! ------

  15. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Just so it isn't lost in the prior discussion...I'll repeat my original questions...

    Can anyone tell me what the hell "seatbelts" have to do with these mens deaths?

    Also since everyone is up in arms about the LDH...what is their current Engine operations policy(actual wording would be nice)

    How is it ineffective and how did the lack of LDH play a role in these men's deaths?

    Is this the only possible option or are their other hose lays considered? (or are these "experts" inexpereinced with anything other than forward lays of LDH?)

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-20-2007 at 02:20 PM.

  16. #41
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,688

    Default

    FFFred, please don't let facts get in the way of a good lynching...I mean story.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #42
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I just asked some questions...much of what you wrote, I have yet to see published anywhere.

    FTM-PTB
    Fred, firstly I agree with much of what you are saying.

    Anyone can listen to the tapes .... look at the videos .... see the images .... its all out there. They originally called five engines and a ladder to the building and only one engine to lay a single 2 1/2"supply line to feed those five engines. This was changed in the first ten minutes to four engines in and two out on supply.

    This is where the 'first' problem lay and it's not about resourcing on-scene or tasking as needed, its about pre-assignment.

    There are a host of other issues that led to a 2007 fire being fought with a 1960s approach. This is what killed those guys and we should be standing alongside each other supporting them in this!

  18. #43
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:28 PM.

  19. #44
    MembersZone Subscriber
    mcaldwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Panorama, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    3,022

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chip2407 View Post
    I have seen or heard others say that maybe their water system can not handle L.D.H. My sincere question is , What facors would prevent you from bein able to us L.D.H. with a certain water system.
    The reason I ask is I have had this brought up before and can't find a legit reason for it.
    Thanks

    p.s Please don't take this a personal insult to anyone, just asking.

    As FFRED suggested, there is too little evidence to say LDH could or would have helped here, but for the sake of arguement....


    LDH can be counterproductive in a system that flows waaay too little water.

    For example, if your system only flows a few hundred gpms, A 1000 foot lay of 6 inch can take so long to fill, that the engine has taken up and goine home long before he saw drop one, let alone a decent residual. In that case, 3" would fill in 1/4 the time, and of course build a decent pressure faster too.

    If time is not important, you are better off filling the LDH for the longer lay, but sometimes less water applied sooner is the most effective.


    We do need to know more about Charleston before we can make any comments of value.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

  20. #45
    Forum Member
    frenchfireball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    lyon,france
    Posts
    1,033

    Default

    as i'm not firefighter but my relatives are,i can just understand what the families of the 9 fallen bros feel.i just think that the firefighters did their BEST on fireground for this fire and they use what they have for hoses.

    now the recommendations which are listed(in the preliminary panel) can help some fire departments maybe but this is very hard for every firefighters to read that now,too early.we need time to "accept" the situation(a fire claimed lives of 9 firefighters)and to be in mourning.

    god bless the 9 fallen firefighters.deepest thoughts to the families.
    "sauver ou périr"

    "courage et dévouement"

    2 french mottoes in french fire service.

  21. #46
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Wasn't my opinion. Came from the Charleston newspaper:

    http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/...t_change13370/
    Funny I could have sworn you offered plenty of your opinion in prior posts...I was just interested in the facts and reasoning that support that opinion.

    Until we see otherwise...are we to assume you aren't going to reply to any questions in regards to their or your statements?

    FTM-PTB

  22. #47
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:31 PM.

  23. #48
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:31 PM.

  24. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber
    swarmy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    115

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Just so it isn't lost in the prior discussion...I'll repeat my original questions...

    Can anyone tell me what the hell "seatbelts" have to do with these mens deaths?


    FTM-PTB
    FFFRED-

    I have your answer....it has nothing to do with the death of the 9 firefighters.

    HOWEVER...the mayor tasked this panel with making overall safety and policy recommendations. According to a press release, this is the format the panel is using:

    "The first phase, an analysis of procedure and practices, including media relations, should take about a month, and any recommendations for change could be implemented in the short term.

    Later, the review team will assemble reports from the various federal, state and local investigations being conducted and compile that information into one report from which the city can work. This could take four months or longer.

    Finally, the review team will draft a long-range strategic plan that will possibly chart a future course for the City of Charleston Fire Department. No time estimate was given for this phase of the review."

    The panel hasn't even started on the LODD fire yet. They are waiting for the official investigation to be completed. (Altough there has been quite a bit of confusion based on the way the Preliminary Recommendations were written.
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

  25. #50
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post
    As FFRED suggested, there is too little evidence to say LDH could or would have helped here,
    Mutual aid departments have been taking LDH into Charleston for sometime. They did it later in the fire and it gave effective water supply to aerial ladders. The Charleston grid is ISO 1 in many parts of the city areas! Stand alongside and support your brothers may they RIP.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. New Nest for the Eagles & Condors !
    By RetJaxFF in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-29-2007, 08:44 PM
  2. F-16 crashes in Charleston, SC **pics**
    By sconfire in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-22-2005, 08:47 AM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 03-07-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-08-2005, 10:07 PM
  4. RFP's
    By D Littrell in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-08-2000, 06:36 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-06-1999, 10:13 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register