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  1. #41
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    FFFred, please don't let facts get in the way of a good lynching...I mean story.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?


  2. #42
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I just asked some questions...much of what you wrote, I have yet to see published anywhere.

    FTM-PTB
    Fred, firstly I agree with much of what you are saying.

    Anyone can listen to the tapes .... look at the videos .... see the images .... its all out there. They originally called five engines and a ladder to the building and only one engine to lay a single 2 1/2"supply line to feed those five engines. This was changed in the first ten minutes to four engines in and two out on supply.

    This is where the 'first' problem lay and it's not about resourcing on-scene or tasking as needed, its about pre-assignment.

    There are a host of other issues that led to a 2007 fire being fought with a 1960s approach. This is what killed those guys and we should be standing alongside each other supporting them in this!

  3. #43
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    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:28 PM.

  4. #44
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip2407 View Post
    I have seen or heard others say that maybe their water system can not handle L.D.H. My sincere question is , What facors would prevent you from bein able to us L.D.H. with a certain water system.
    The reason I ask is I have had this brought up before and can't find a legit reason for it.
    Thanks

    p.s Please don't take this a personal insult to anyone, just asking.

    As FFRED suggested, there is too little evidence to say LDH could or would have helped here, but for the sake of arguement....


    LDH can be counterproductive in a system that flows waaay too little water.

    For example, if your system only flows a few hundred gpms, A 1000 foot lay of 6 inch can take so long to fill, that the engine has taken up and goine home long before he saw drop one, let alone a decent residual. In that case, 3" would fill in 1/4 the time, and of course build a decent pressure faster too.

    If time is not important, you are better off filling the LDH for the longer lay, but sometimes less water applied sooner is the most effective.


    We do need to know more about Charleston before we can make any comments of value.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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  5. #45
    Forum Member frenchfireball's Avatar
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    as i'm not firefighter but my relatives are,i can just understand what the families of the 9 fallen bros feel.i just think that the firefighters did their BEST on fireground for this fire and they use what they have for hoses.

    now the recommendations which are listed(in the preliminary panel) can help some fire departments maybe but this is very hard for every firefighters to read that now,too early.we need time to "accept" the situation(a fire claimed lives of 9 firefighters)and to be in mourning.

    god bless the 9 fallen firefighters.deepest thoughts to the families.
    "sauver ou périr"

    "courage et dévouement"

    2 french mottoes in french fire service.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Wasn't my opinion. Came from the Charleston newspaper:

    http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/...t_change13370/
    Funny I could have sworn you offered plenty of your opinion in prior posts...I was just interested in the facts and reasoning that support that opinion.

    Until we see otherwise...are we to assume you aren't going to reply to any questions in regards to their or your statements?

    FTM-PTB

  7. #47
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  8. #48
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    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:31 PM.

  9. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber swarmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Just so it isn't lost in the prior discussion...I'll repeat my original questions...

    Can anyone tell me what the hell "seatbelts" have to do with these mens deaths?


    FTM-PTB
    FFFRED-

    I have your answer....it has nothing to do with the death of the 9 firefighters.

    HOWEVER...the mayor tasked this panel with making overall safety and policy recommendations. According to a press release, this is the format the panel is using:

    "The first phase, an analysis of procedure and practices, including media relations, should take about a month, and any recommendations for change could be implemented in the short term.

    Later, the review team will assemble reports from the various federal, state and local investigations being conducted and compile that information into one report from which the city can work. This could take four months or longer.

    Finally, the review team will draft a long-range strategic plan that will possibly chart a future course for the City of Charleston Fire Department. No time estimate was given for this phase of the review."

    The panel hasn't even started on the LODD fire yet. They are waiting for the official investigation to be completed. (Altough there has been quite a bit of confusion based on the way the Preliminary Recommendations were written.
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

  10. #50
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post
    As FFRED suggested, there is too little evidence to say LDH could or would have helped here,
    Mutual aid departments have been taking LDH into Charleston for sometime. They did it later in the fire and it gave effective water supply to aerial ladders. The Charleston grid is ISO 1 in many parts of the city areas! Stand alongside and support your brothers may they RIP.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor View Post
    BRAVO-UNIFORM-LIMA-LIMA-SIERRA-HOTEL-INDIA-TANGO!!! You mean to tell me that a captain with 32 years of experience is going to be cowed and blindly follow the orders of a chief, even the chief of department, if it is something that he knows through those same years of experience is a deady situation waiting to happen??? You mean to tell me that a captain with that many years of experience isn't going to recognize the weakness in the system and devise tactics to work around them: ...
    That was funny, the Bravo thing that is, I will keep that one filed away.

    However, A captain of 32 years or 100 years, you follow the directions of the chief, it's called the chain of command and discipline. I do believe you aren't truly understanding what I am saying. You fight fires based on your training and SOPs. Included in training are your years of experience.

    Now just because you have always done something wrong and gotten away with it doesn't make it right. For instance, the guy who drinks and drives for 50 years but never gets caught. He gets away with it, but it isn't right. And that is what I ma saying here, the SOP and the training were flawed. Those are things you fix before the fire. At the scene, they did exactly what their department said they should do, which, doesn't make it right. How about the simple fact they don't follow the OSHA mandated 2 in/ 2 out rule? I suspect there will be fines as a result of that finding.

    I hope you can see that there is a difference between what happened the day of the incident vs the training, planning, and preparation for incidents. The latter is where the issue is.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by swarmy View Post
    FFFRED-

    I have your answer....it has nothing to do with the death of the 9 firefighters.

    HOWEVER...the mayor tasked this panel with making overall safety and policy recommendations. According to a press release, this is the format the panel is using:

    "The first phase, an analysis of procedure and practices, including media relations, should take about a month, and any recommendations for change could be implemented in the short term.

    Later, the review team will assemble reports from the various federal, state and local investigations being conducted and compile that information into one report from which the city can work. This could take four months or longer.

    Finally, the review team will draft a long-range strategic plan that will possibly chart a future course for the City of Charleston Fire Department. No time estimate was given for this phase of the review."

    The panel hasn't even started on the LODD fire yet. They are waiting for the official investigation to be completed. (Altough there has been quite a bit of confusion based on the way the Preliminary Recommendations were written.
    And if I understand correctly, this is separate from any NFPA, NIOSH, OSHA, law enforcement investigation. I wonder how many lawyers are following this and reading these reports.

    As for the LDH question, I don't know for sure, but I think that is in direct response to the water problem that existed. Lacking enough water to fight the fire the poor guys inside didn't have enough fire power to fight the fight.

  13. #53
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Mutual aid departments have been taking LDH into Charleston for sometime. They did it later in the fire and it gave effective water supply to aerial ladders. The Charleston grid is ISO 1 in many parts of the city areas! Stand alongside and support your brothers may they RIP.

    That's good to know, but I was trying to answer a generic question, outside the CH9 debate.

    The process for change has to be methodical and logical, not just a "do this because it works for someone else". I suspect LDH will come, but is has to come specifically because it will work for Charleston. When I first saw the ISO 1 comment, I immediately thought the same. "If they got the rating, they have the system." I can't comment from my little one horse town 5000 kms away though.


    As a related note, I think it is important to make sure these task forces focus on the real needs here. There have been comments made about the fluff or filler in the report (seatbelts/PIO's/Etc). While all have value there is a distinct process to be followed with these reccommendations.

    1. Compile the study/report/reccomendations.
    2. PRIORITIZE the needs.
    3. Formulate and action plan.
    4. Execute the plan.


    It is critical that the "general" stuff not take away from the message of the report. If SOG's/Tactics, and Training are the real problems, make sure that the powers that be don't get away with training a PIO, drafting a seatbelt plan, and buying a pretty command post kit and saying they completed 90% of the reccomendations.

    The staffing, LDH, or Handlines may be only 2-3 items, but the cost (and impact) is likely the greatest. The report, or follow-up plan must place the priority on the most IMPORTANT items, not the easiest to acheive. Too many items on the list make it easier for the important things to slip through the cracks.

    If Charleston is serious about undertaking any amount of operational reform, they have to make the plan realistic and acheivable. Too many items will only muddy the water, and overwhelm the planners.
    Last edited by mcaldwell; 08-20-2007 at 04:16 PM.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    However, A captain of 32 years or 100 years, you follow the directions of the chief, it's called the chain of command and discipline. I do believe you aren't truly understanding what I am saying. You fight fires based on your training and SOPs. Included in training are your years of experience.
    You are in the wrong here. Chain of command and discipline does not mean blindly following orders. There's a right and wrong way to do it, but you have a duty to question orders that have the potential to get someone killed or negatively effect the outcome of an incident. See also "Crew Resource Management." Sometimes, Trotter, it's painfully obvious that you're an amateur, and I wish you weren't on my side. You do more harm than good.

  15. #55
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Maybe I should add this? Might open your eyes some Knight Dude
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  16. #56
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    However, A captain of 32 years or 100 years, you follow the directions of the chief, it's called the chain of command and discipline.

    You really need to stop posting; every time you post you reveal just how much you don't know, or understand-about everything.

  17. #57
    Forum Member station75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    However, A captain of 32 years or 100 years, you follow the directions of the chief, it's called the chain of command and discipline. I do believe you aren't truly understanding what I am saying. You fight fires based on your training and SOPs. Included in training are your years of experience.
    As a CO, you are expected to follow the directions of a Senior Officer. However, blindly following an order you know to be flawed is not only foolish, but can be deadly. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you probably just phrased it wrong.

    After reading through this thread, I think that what you were trying to get at is the fact that given the way the fire was directed by the Fire Chief, you can assume that to the personnel of the Charleston FD, that would be the norm or SOP for the Dept. The CO's on the Company's that responded would, more than likely follow the Chief's lead and do what he normally does. I listened to a good part of the recordings and it seemed chaotic to say the least.

    In my Department, we regularly train on ICS, RIC/RIT operations, S&R, Division/Group Supervisor operations, etc. It is practiced at every incident that requires it. If you don't, you will get a talking to by your supervisor. We drum it in to all new personnel so it becomes second nature to them.

    After reading the recommendations made, it looks to me like they either had never implemented some of the recommendations, or never trained on them or used them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedAS View Post
    You are in the wrong here. Chain of command and discipline does not mean blindly following orders. There's a right and wrong way to do it, but you have a duty to question orders that have the potential to get someone killed or negatively effect the outcome of an incident. See also "Crew Resource Management." Sometimes, Trotter, it's painfully obvious that you're an amateur, and I wish you weren't on my side. You do more harm than good.
    Not to stick up for HT, but you speak too generically. Perhaps to you, me, and many others this is the way of the world, but do not be mistaken that chain of command and discipline do mean just that on some departments.

    At the same time, it doesn't take long for operations to go so wrong that someone ends up perishing. I believe there's a video that shows a living room fire starting with a Christmas tree. In about one minute it goes from an incipient fire to flashover. This was a sofa warehouse, full of fuel. No reason to believe it'd take more than a few seconds from the time you think "Oh *****" to get to the point that it's too late.

  19. #59
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFDNJFF View Post
    I will repeat what I said. What works for your town or city may not work in someone else's city or town. I used to live there and know that they are a ISO Class 1 rated and quality FD. LDH will not work for them.
    ISO takes into consideration the citys water supply system and as far as I know takes up a majority of there grading scale yet you state there system cannot handle LDH?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    ISO takes into consideration the citys water supply system and as far as I know takes up a majority of there grading scale yet you state there system cannot handle LDH?
    I"ll give you one good reason why the probably did not have it...BENJAMINS. It costs money to change to a new line. It is easy to say it does not cost that much, but it does when you are changing over a dozen trucks. Then you still have to convince the council that the new hose is better than the old. Remember fire departments do not live in a vacuum all by themselves with unlimited funding. We have to fight for money versus the police, sanitation, parks, streets, corrections, etc...

    Also Charleston being an older city the hydrants may not be able to handle LDH. How you ask? Maybe some only have two 2 1/2" discharges because at the time that was the standard. Maybe their water department has told them that using LDH would damage the system. We don't know.

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