1. #1001
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    Oh yea, the booster line thing. No brainer here, I would rather have too much water than not enough. But that is how we think in the 21st century, we don't use bucket brigades anymore.

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    I guess ol' urban Harry doesn't realize booster line,even high pressure ones,have a purpose OUTSIDE of structural firefighting.We specced one Engine one time without one.Never again.And they ARE NOT used on structure fires.But they sure are handy on grass and light brush,matress fires once they are outside and a myriad of little odd jobs while using less water than an 1.75. T.C.

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    Our latests rigs,Pierce Contenders, all came with booster lines. We are 80% rural. The only time these lines are pulled are for brush fires. Mostly for initial attack depending on fire size,and hot spot clean-up and are flexible enough to weave around rough terrain. If someone were to pull a booster at a structure we would probably look at him as if he showed up naked. Thankfully neither has happened.
    The stuff going on that appeared screwy in the initial videos has only been reinforced to be just that by subsequent study and reporting. I was not surprised to not see Chief Thomas at the SC Firefighters Convention in July. He should simply have taken the blame and moved on. That is what being the man is all about.

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    I guess that's the difference between "dinos"and you 21st Century FF's.While the 21st century ff's are consulting the "rulebook"to see what size line they need and if they have enough "tenders"to supply it the "dinos"have already selected the proper line,put the fire out and gone home.While I don't object to some 21st century ideas,I find that what I learned from FOG'S(freakin' old guys)when I first joined holds a LOT more relevance that all the BS I've been taught lately.Let's use the Q formula for friction loss as an example.Anybody memorize it? Well,the "old"formula taught to me in the early years was 30# per 100' small line,15#per 100' big line.Which is easier to remember at 2AM? And you know what? IT STILL WORKS. Oh,with the new hose,it's overkill but you'll never lack for water.So much for modern thinking and calculators.And I STILL don't need a 1.75 to extingush an outside mattress fire. A lil' 30 gpm hose works just fine.And it's a LOT easier to pick up,just push a button. T.C.

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    Can someone please clarify for me? I thought that SCBA masks had to be given to each individual. What do you do, have a S,M,& L mask with each BA?

    And what about fit-testing? I thought that was a NIOSH or something requirement?

    How can you share masks (and spit and sweat and lung butter) with others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Can someone please clarify for me? I thought that SCBA masks had to be given to each individual. What do you do, have a S,M,& L mask with each BA?

    And what about fit-testing? I thought that was a NIOSH or something requirement?

    How can you share masks (and spit and sweat and lung butter) with others?
    No, you do not "have" to provide each individual a mask. It is recommended, and personally I like the idea of doing so. However, at $250+ per mask, it can be pretty costly.

    Yes, fit testing is required by OSHA and NFPA.

    Sharing masks is simple. You clean the freaking thing at the start of your shift. I don't know about the other manufacturers, but Scott makes a cleaning solution and disinfectant for their equipment. We clean ours after each use. Don't you clean yours regularly? Most departments I know do.

    I've also got something for you to think about in regards to your comment on keeping the SCBA bottles full. There's an old addage, "the best rules are those which don't have to be written." Common sense says that you would keep the SCBA bottles full. However, what's full? I know guys that say 4,000 psi on a 4,500 psi tank is full. I know some that will call it full at 3,800 psi. Is that close enough? After all, the "full" line is at 4,000 psi. Is it worth it to start the compressor for 100-200 lbs?

    Now, if we had it in writing that "X,XXX psi is considered full" then there wouldn't be any question, would there? We constantly shoot ourselves in the foot because of our own laziness. At the same time, we have to take personal responsibility to make sure the equipment we'll be wearing is ready to go. If I ran out of air because I didn't make sure my bottle was full, is that my chief's fault? My mayors? No, it's mine and all mine.

    By the way, this is not the "final" report. It's the second of three, if I recall correctly, from this consulting group. There's still a NIOSH report pending and a couple of others, I believe. At the same time, the consulting firm has yet to "report" on anything specifically in regards to the deaths of the 9 men. They are there to make recommendations to improve the department as a whole, not investigate their deaths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Can someone please clarify for me? I thought that SCBA masks had to be given to each individual. What do you do, have a S,M,& L mask with each BA?

    And what about fit-testing? I thought that was a NIOSH or something requirement?

    How can you share masks (and spit and sweat and lung butter) with others?
    Members are fit tested with a mask and the correct size for them is used. Of my membership, 1 uses a small, 2 use a large, the rest use medium. Those 3 members have their own masks (and there is an extra small and large) on each of my apparatus. Rest of the guys, we have a medium mask for each SCBA and 3 extras on each apparatus.

    As stated above, you clean the mask after each use, just like it's inspected after each use.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bones I agree with you more then you realize on quite a few issues. I cant for the life of me see why you and a few others seem to be defending this chief.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    Bones I agree with you more then you realize on quite a few issues. I cant for the life of me see why you and a few others seem to be defending this chief.
    You're not mistaking being against a lynching based on half of the information with defending the chief, are you?

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    Catch,Around here State law says 10%.So that's 2000 and change for a 2216 or 4150 on a 4.5.Common sense would tell you to keep them full.Figuring 100 psi a minute 10% is two minutes.Since we have air in house there is NO excuse for bottles that aren't full. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    You're not mistaking being against a lynching based on half of the information with defending the chief, are you?
    Nope, but I wouldnt mind seeing the rope replaced with a boot... Right out the door for Chief Thomas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Can someone please clarify for me? I thought that SCBA masks had to be given to each individual. What do you do, have a S,M,& L mask with each BA?

    And what about fit-testing? I thought that was a NIOSH or something requirement?

    How can you share masks (and spit and sweat and lung butter) with others?
    90% of the fire fighters will wear the same mask. We had a couple of people in our department that needed the small mask. You wear what you fit test with.

    As for the hygiene issue, we have ISI mask that can be completely submersed in a cleaning solution and then used immediately. Makes cleaning them and passing them around a lot easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Members are fit tested with a mask and the correct size for them is used. Of my membership, 1 uses a small, 2 use a large, the rest use medium. Those 3 members have their own masks (and there is an extra small and large) on each of my apparatus. Rest of the guys, we have a medium mask for each SCBA and 3 extras on each apparatus.

    As stated above, you clean the mask after each use, just like it's inspected after each use.
    This is the same with my department. We keep medium's with the packs. But have 2-3 extras on the trucks. The firefighters that wear a small, I believe 3 of them they have thier own issued to them. We are working towards having enough for all to have thier own.

    Our SOG's state that if a bottle is at 4100 or below it will be filled. The only time this will not be done is if it is only 1 or 2 bottles. Then they will be placed at the bottom of the rack so it will be the last used. And if it is between the hours of 2200 to 0600 and only have a couple of bottles to fill we will hold off untill after 0600. This is because we have to take them to the city station to fill. Don't get me wrong, if the bottles (more than 2) need filled we will wake them up and get them filled. They have been very helpfull and understanding when we need our bottles filled.

    T.J.

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    "I thought most FD's use 45's?"
    Devildog4 - everytime you post something you show just how little you really know about the fire service. Again, just because your 2 engine (or is it one?) department does something - THAT'S NOT WHAT EVERYONE ELSE DOES! You may be able to learn a few things here if you would loose the superior attitude and realize that there is a big world out there and "the great state of california" is a relative newcomer to the game.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    Bones I agree with you more then you realize on quite a few issues. I cant for the life of me see why you and a few others seem to be defending this chief.
    Can't say I'm defending anyone, or at least not trying to. Just trying to get down to the basics of their operations. I've watched the videos, listened to the tapes, read the reports. Still some unanswered questions for me. Did the SSS fire go badly? Absolutely. Was the problem bad procedures, no procedures at all, or procedures that simple weren't followed?

    I have no ill will towards anyone here. Just disagreeing with some guys assessments. Like I said many posts ago, you'd hear very little with my radio communications, and that would make many "here" think things were going badly/wrong/incompetently. It's all good.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    ChicagoFF, you are doing it again. I asked a question relating to BA bottles, and you try and make me out like I don't know **** from shinola. Let me tell ya'll supin ya ken undrstan. Everbody we operate/run with auto aid/mutual aid all have the same 4500 bottle, same fittings, same RIT quick connect fittings. Whole County runs that way. So who exactly is wrong here?

    Old-school traditional 30's vs new more-advanced, lighter 45's
    200 years of tradition unhampered by progress.

    And BTW,the "great State of California" is a relative newcomer to the game.
    You are absolutely right,however we kinda went from black rubber coats to yellow nomex. From 3/4 boots to bunker pants. Refined ICS procedure to help make it a National Standard. Made 2-in/2-out a mandatory function for our area. Made RIT/RIC a mandatory function for our area. Made accountability tags and passports for our area. We don't use hardlines. So slam all ya want.
    I can repost the truth
    Last edited by webteam; 10-23-2007 at 05:53 PM. Reason: Name calling

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    Dog,see post 1004.Maybe YOU don't use hardline but it's used all over the GREAT state of Ca.As far as your quantum leaps in technology,spare me.You're still killing FF's and civilians alike.So it looks like there is still room for improvement in the great state.Oh yeah,aren't you dipsticks still allowing cedar shake siding and roofs? A lot of us figured out that was a bad idea a long time ago. By the way,we don't use 45's either.Never needed 'em.Got HOUR bottles if I want to work that long.Like I've said many times on this thread,time to get your head out of the dark spot and do a little traveling.You haven't found the "key" yet and you damn sure haven't shown some of us much aptitude for the trade.Let's think back,where was the jump off point for Kalifornia? Hmmn,..........CHICAGO! How soon we forget. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    And BTW,the "great State of California" is a relative newcomer to the game.
    You are absolutely right,however we kinda went from black rubber coats to yellow nomex. From 3/4 boots to bunker pants. Refined ICS procedure to help make it a National Standard. Made 2-in/2-out a mandatory function for our area. Made RIT/RIC a mandatory function for our area. Made accountability tags and passports for our area. We don't use hardlines. So slam all ya want.
    I can repost the truth
    So what?

    I've always felt that Maryland was one of the states that was innovative and at times took a leadership role in the fire service (not being sarcastic here).

    I don't hear them crowing about it.

    This is really a juvenile argument. My dad can beat up your dad thing, or my tricycle is faster than yours.

    Good for California, but c'mon... you didn't invent everything. Also, I don't understand how *you* can take credit for those things. You happen to live in a state that collects a lot of tax revenues and can afford to make some of these changes.

    If you really want to compete, then how about a competition where the state that *wins* is the state that has no LODD's.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Dog,see post 1004.Maybe YOU don't use hardline but it's used all over the GREAT state of Ca.As far as your quantum leaps in technology,spare me.You're still killing FF's and civilians alike.So it looks like there is still room for improvement in the great state.Oh yeah,aren't you dipsticks still allowing cedar shake siding and roofs? A lot of us figured out that was a bad idea a long time ago. By the way,we don't use 45's either.Never needed 'em.Got HOUR bottles if I want to work that long.Like I've said many times on this thread,time to get your head out of the dark spot and do a little traveling.You haven't found the "key" yet and you damn sure haven't shown some of us much aptitude for the trade.Let's think back,where was the jump off point for Kalifornia? Hmmn,..........CHICAGO! How soon we forget. T.C.
    All the BS aside, there is room for improvement in every department out there. And the process improvement cycle never ends. It is always on going and has no place for terms like - "We have always done it this way", "It works for us", or my favorite "It's Tradition". You have to be progressive and receptive of change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    All the BS aside, there is room for improvement in every department out there. And the process improvement cycle never ends. It is always on going and has no place for terms like - "We have always done it this way", "It works for us", or my favorite "It's Tradition". You have to be progressive and receptive of change.
    UGH ! you just know how to hop one someone's last nerve ............
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    Trots,I think you'd make good foundation material or perhaps nuclear shielding."Always done this way"is NOT necessarily bad.Tradition is CERTAINLY not a bad thing."It works for us".My favorite because it does.New,state of the art,people intensive is NOT necessarily the best way.What works for us in our area may NOT in yours.Nor is there any way a "national"ruling or policy is going to make it so.As I've already explained,we are very comfortable(and effective)in our operations spanning towns,cities,counties,and statewde ops.Is it ICS? Yes. Is it yours and Dogs version of ICS? NO. Will it intergrate into Nims? Easily,if necessary.Could California use it? Doubtful,wrong mind set there. Point being: Different demographics and geographical jurisdictions will dictate a difference of opinion on how to get things done.No amount of governmental interference is ever going to make that completely go away.So fix your areas,get your neighbors to,and theirs. Then most of the "problems"will go away.I know this is Waaaay too simple but...... T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 10-22-2007 at 12:00 PM.

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    You guys don't get it

    The PC will never be a viable business product
    Cars with internal combustion engines will never be better than the horse and carriage.
    Man will never fly.

    There are a whole bunch of people who know and realize that there is always room for improvement. Those who say it is working just fine right now need to step aside and let those of us who want to fix the problems move on and get the job done.

    I never said there was version of the ICS that is the best. I have said that there are always ways to do things better. GEEEE, I wonder if that is why NFPA is constantly changing their standards? And some of the NFPA standards do have teeth as OSHA points directly to the NFPA standards in their regulations.

    Show me one person who says they have the perfect fire department and I will show you a fool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    You guys don't get it
    Actually, I think that you are being to general. It's not always that new things are better, it's not always that tradition is worthless.

    Better to stick to the topic and not speak in such generalities.

    Yes, cars are better than horse and buggy. But did you ever own a Gremlin?

    Not all things new are ideal, but all new things should be reviewed for their individual merit.

    I also don't hear anyone saying that their fire department is perfect. Well, except for that guy from California. LOL
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    WHO doesn't "get it"? Take a LONG look in the shiny glass for the correct answer.Experience (lots)tells me YOU are not always right.In fact.......... People with more fire experience in a month than you have in your LIFETIME have tried to point you in the right direction.Still you insist on following Dog off the cliff. Next time find a better cliff. Neither one of you has much active fire experience in my opinion.This is based on your writings which do not indicate the way a seasoned line "bull"would think or act. So live in your world,I'll continue to protect my citizens with KNOWN practices and procedures improved over countless hours of operation and time. T.C.

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    150 years ago, most gentlemen put their pants on one leg a time. That's still working for most gentlemen. Do we need to find a better way?

    I will show you a fool.
    Emailing your picture around again?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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