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  1. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post

    Well documented that pulling boosterline is the past practice of CFD, and they had no pre-connects, so it is faster to pull the booster than pull out attack line from the bed and attach a nozzle.
    Why aren't your nozzles attached to your lines?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service


  2. #942
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    Default from today's news .............

    Second Set of Charleston Recommendations to be Released Soon
    Updated: 10-08-2007 11:54:39 AM
    SUSAN NICOL KYLE
    Firehouse.Com News

    The second set of recommendations for the Charleston Fire Department due to be released as early as this week will likely include additional steps to improve operations.

    While Gordon Routley, chairman of the task force reviewing the incident, would not elaborate on specifics, he said the document will provide more analysis of staffing, firefighter health and safety, training and equipment.

    The task force of fire service experts was selected to review the fire department following the deaths of nine firefighters.

    "To date, we've been looking at the fire department and fire protection in Charleston pre-June 18," Routley said Saturday during an interview in Maryland. "Now, we're ready to move to an in-depth investigation about the fire."

    Chief Rusty Thomas implemented the majority of the team's initial recommendations including changes to staffing and response to certain alarms.

    Thomas, who was in Maryland last week for incident command training, said he is committed to making the necessary changes to better his department.

    Other suggestions such as the hiring of additional personnel and equipment purchases will likely be phased in over the next two years.

    During a recent interview, Mayor Joe Riley said residents are willing to spend the money to improve their fire department.

    Routley believes the analysis is going well, and is impressed with the cooperation the group has received from the fire department, the city and Charleston citizens.

    "We have a highly motivated team that works well together. We're totally absorbed by it. We all understand why we're doing what we're doing."

    Routley said staying focused on the mission is paramount. "We know that everything we do or say is being commented on in blogs, by the news media and others. We're in the public spotlight."

    Although they are not in Charleston full time, the work doesn't stop when they leave town. There are still e-mails, phone calls, notes to review and reports to write.

    "It's so important to see this to the end. We need to know what occurred to make sure it's prevented from happening again."

    The group has poured over a multitude of photographs and watched many videos of the blaze. "We're interviewing every single firefighter who was there during that first hour. We want to know who was where and what they were doing."

    Routley said reconstructing that fateful evening is a vital part of the analysis. "We're not here to pick apart the actions of every single firefighter. We're doing this as one part of our review -- to get a timetable of events."

    "I think it's important for them to know why we are doing the interviews..."
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    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  3. #943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I found this amongst the "comments" of the recent water supply story on charleston.net...

    Assuming this guy is on CFD (as it sounds by his post) and knows what he's talking about, then they relay pump to their supply engines/trucks.

    He does go on in his post about the spaghetti mess and everything of the number of supply lines on the ground. However, apparently CFD does put down multiple lines and does not rely on the 2 1/2" from the hydrant. Is LDH more efficient? Sure. Can the job be done by relay pumping smaller hose? You bet, it just takes more hose to make up for the FL.

    Now, to me at least, the question is if they had enough lines on the ground off the supply engines to the attack engines. This is a prime example of why it's beneficial to know their guidelines before making assumptions.
    Interesting comments...this is by far the closest we've gotten to finding out what the relevant CFD Engine procedures were on that day.

    Can anyone provide futher citations or cut and paste CFD procedures that mention these Engine operations.

    This only further adds question to those who feel that their procedures were irrelevant:

    If they typically relay pump, was this followed at this fire? If not what role did it play in the lack of sufficent water supplies. How would the outcome been different?

    If their pump operators didn't understand the simple hydraulic concepts, shouldn't the focus be on training, not aquiring costly hose that will only be improperly pumped as the smaller stuff would.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-LDH isn't always as efficent as a reverse stretch(backstretch) as I have described many times, it ensures greater amount of water available, leaves the front of the building for the trucks and allows for an increase in manpower efficency in the early stages of a fire. I don't see how LDH provides any of that.

  4. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Interesting comments...this is by far the closest we've gotten to finding out what the relevant CFD Engine procedures were on that day.

    This only further adds question to those who feel that their procedures were irrelevant:

    FTM-PTB
    Welcome back Fred!

    But whooaa! How can you place any reliance on this 'cut n paste' information that is unsubstantiated? You of all people have been repeatedly flaming people for straying into 'hearsay' and unofficial reports.

    At least let's keep this to facts, or opinions dis-associated from the SSS fire sequence of events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Welcome back Fred!

    But whooaa! How can you place any reliance on this 'cut n paste' information that is unsubstantiated? You of all people have been repeatedly flaming people for straying into 'hearsay' and unofficial reports.

    At least let's keep this to facts, or opinions dis-associated from the SSS fire sequence of events.

    Cut and paste their procedures...Batt 18...keep up with the discussion as long as they are cited properly...they would be relevant. I'm still waiting for you or anyone to post the Charleston Fire Dept's Engine operations or at least those relevant to the issues at hand.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Cut and paste their procedures...Batt 18...keep up with the discussion as long as they are cited properly...they would be relevant. I'm still waiting for you or anyone to post the Charleston Fire Dept's Engine operations or at least those relevant to the issues at hand.

    FTM-PTB
    FFFred we don't have access to those documents! You would most likely need a court order to get hold of them! Citing comments from web blogs or public forum posts that cannot in any way be substantiated is hearsay. Let's stick with the facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    FFFred we don't have access to those documents! You would most likely need a court order to get hold of them! Citing comments from web blogs or public forum posts that cannot in any way be substantiated is hearsay. Let's stick with the facts.
    First, if you don't have all the relevant information how can you make any judgements? Why the rush?

    You have cited Chicago and FDNY procedures on these forums in the past. Right now we have an investigation on going into 2 LODD's and our procedures are easily obtainable...in fact our Document Control Unit will sell you or anyone a set of our books for about $250 US today. Every firehouse has a copy and at least 1/2 the job has their own personal copies.

    I find your suggestion that these documents are no longer public record or inaccessable to be without merit.

    A FOIL request would be the most effort one would need if they wanted to gain access for them at this time. I bet one could get it much easier by asking the city for a copy or through contacts in the CFD.

    I can't imagine that their entire set of SOPs was suspended and now is inaccessible for reference by members of the department or the public for that matter.

    You want to stick with the facts...many of the relevant facts are in those books.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 10-09-2007 at 09:19 AM.

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    These two comments are supposedly from CFD members who are answering questions regarding their supplyline SOPís.

    Split hose beds were never set up, we are instructed to lay a 2.5 and then hand jack the other 2.5 to the attack pumper, each engine has 2 preconnected 1.5's.

    The city's SOPs do not allow us to 'drop' the line at the hydrant and perform a forward lay--SOP in Charleston FD is reverse lay with two 2 1/2 supply lines now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    These two comments are supposedly from CFD members who are answering questions regarding their supplyline SOPís.

    Split hose beds were never set up, we are instructed to lay a 2.5 and then hand jack the other 2.5 to the attack pumper, each engine has 2 preconnected 1.5's.

    The city's SOPs do not allow us to 'drop' the line at the hydrant and perform a forward lay--SOP in Charleston FD is reverse lay with two 2 1/2 supply lines now.
    Key word: "supposedly".
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Gonzo, your constant cynical, sneering, detracting, sarcastic dribble is wearing on me...

    I put that caveat in there because I am not 100% sure of the author. Why canít you say ďwhy do they lay reverse lays as their standardĒ. You could have also said ďWhy did they change from single to dual reverse lays after the fireĒ.

    Instead, you have continued the cr*p you post at every opportunity, always criticizing others posts.

    I think in the end you will find I am right on this one.

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    Ah geeze,not this s**t again.I SUPPOSE I might hit the lottery one day but I'm not banking my retirement on it. SHOW me the Charleston Sog's and THEN I'll believe how the beds are set up and what's SUPPOSED to happen.Until then it's the same ol' he said,she said.I SUPPOSE I could ride down to Marlborough and show Gonzo how to fight fire.Better yet send the "City"boy to me and we'll see how he does in the land of limited hydrants.But either game would be fun.Charleston is NOT fun,nine brothers were lost and I, along with others, want to know why.But I want to know WHY based on FACTS, not gossip and speculation.I guarantee there is more to this saga than most on here KNOW.We can what if this forever,but without some pertinent information we DO NOT have,it is impossible to do more than speculate.For what it's worth,T.C.

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    Fred,help me out here.You lost me on the efficiency of LDH and backlays.Since this is something I've done a few times,I find it to be VERY effective.Back down the street/alley/goattrail and lay(LDH)to source and pump it.As you say,keeps the extra hardware out from underfoot and allows mucho dihydrogen monoxide to reach the attack piece.What did I miss? T.C.

  13. #953
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Gonzo, your constant cynical, sneering, detracting, sarcastic dribble is wearing on me...

    I put that caveat in there because I am not 100% sure of the author. Why canít you say ďwhy do they lay reverse lays as their standardĒ. You could have also said ďWhy did they change from single to dual reverse lays after the fireĒ.

    Instead, you have continued the cr*p you post at every opportunity, always criticizing others posts.

    I think in the end you will find I am right on this one.
    Frankly, I and a host of others are tired of your "holier than thou"condescending tone you post on this forum. You have erased posts in an effort to cover your inadequacies and errors.

    If you are such an "expert", then why weren't you a part of the "consulting" team that was hired by the Mayor of Charleston? Why aren't you in Charleston right now as part of the NIOSH team conducting the investigation?

    I tend to look at the entire photo album instead of pickig out a snapshot or two to form an opinion. I will wait for the official reports to come out.

    You treat the reports from the "media" like they are gospel.

    The media is only interested in one thing.. making money, either by selling newspapers or increasing ratings points. They have no interest in the truth, if they did, they would print retractions on Page 1 "above the fold" and make their lead newscast story "hey.. we were wrong" instead of putting a little blurb on the bottom of "lifestylkes" page or just before the closing creditrs roll.

    If you believe everything you see on the tube and read in the paper... I know of some potential oceanfront property in Arizona I can get you a deal on.

    Brother Tim... I don't know much about firefighting in your neck of the woods. My experience with tanker shuttles, drop tanks and long distance relays beyond the world of hydrants is limited to what I see and was taught at the Fire Academy, but I damn sure wouldn't use reports from the Portland Press Herald or the Bangor Daily News to shape my opinion of firefighting operations in Naples/Bridgeton area. Thanks for watching my six!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Gonzo Dude:

    Those quotes came from a website where former and current CFD members (as well as others) are posting. In fact, here are two more posts concerning water supply problems at the SSS fire. Seems pretty authentic to me. Seems like a legitimate source in my eyes.

    "We have master stream devices. On Engine 15 we got a topside mounted deluge gun(and yes some are in pieces to fit) and we got a interchangable 500 gpm fog nozzel on the rig as well. I believe engine 20 may have a topside gun,(so do all the old reserve MACKS-1970S) but everyone else its in the trucks compartment. Standard on Every other engine in the city is a deluge gun with 2 50ft sect. of 3 in hose. These are used, but not often".


    "I haven't written anything in a while because I wanted to read what everyone else had to say, so here is what is eating at my gut.Engine 11 was suppose to be first due in and was sent to the rear of the store,ok so I don't know what Chief Garvin had on his mind but Engine 11 followed what the chief told him to do.As Engine 11 proceeded back around to the front of the store,as the SOP's state,second due engine lays the supply line.What was the Acting Capt thinking?During the time it took Engine 11 to get around front Engine 10 became first in.So his first thought should have been(Lay # 10 a supply line)but something went wrong and Engine 11 ended up parked in front of the store.Who's getting water? from where? actually how long did it take before either Engine recieve a supply line?We have had big or bigger fires than the sss and as the engine co's were directed in they where told what was needed and were.It was left up to the Capt. to do what he was supposed to do.So what happened?The Chas.Museum fire downtown was big, low water pressure(always has been downtown)2 1/2 lines,deluge appliances,ladder trucks and that fire was brought under control. See what I'm getting at here?There was some mistakes made and 9 men died.We can have all the water in the world at our beck and call, it falls down to the Engine co's on how to use it.That day it wasn't used fully because Engine 11 created a situation that caused everything to spiral downward when they didn't lay a supply line to Engine 10.Some members in the Dept. have done far less and recieved 2 weeks off(without pay)Is not following our SOP's and causing a situation,that not until outlying co's got there did any engine co. recieve a supply line!So do you think LDH would have helped?(maybe!)We know how to use what we have and you need to follow on what you are trained to do.Do we put the blame on just one person? No! It does start at the top and works it's way down".


    It's not "holier than thou" or condescending to ask questions or comment on the apparant problems with CFD management that cost the lives of 9 Brother FF's. I know you don't bother to look, but the management there is 25 years behind the times, steep in tradition and don't like change.


    Just look at some of the quotes from the Chief:

    "Will I have trouble hiring nine people?" he said. "Not one bit."

    Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said Friday that he does not know whether his department's policies mirror federal and state guidelines for managing a fire scene. "I don't know," he said. "I know we have our own."

    "I'm just going to let you know we have our own incident command system. We have it written that the highest-ranking official is automatically in charge. I don't care how it is anyplace else."

    "Our firefighting techniques are not going to change in the city of Charleston Fire Department"

    "We're safe, we've got the best equipment, we've got the best people and that's the way we fight fires," he said.

    "That's the tradition that's been carried on in the city of Charleston Fire Department since time was time," Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said. "Are we going to let someone's property burn? No, sir."

    "We come from a long line of traditional firefighting, and we are never going to get away from that ó never," Thomas said. "You can't read out of a book how to put a fire out. You have to go out there and do it, and that's what we do."

    "The booster has its place in the Charleston Fire Department, and it's up to our captains on the truck to pull whatever size hose they think is needed to put the fire out," Thomas said. "That's the way we do it."

    Thomas said fire crews did not take any TIC cameras into Sofa Super Store that night. "I don't know why," he said. "We keep them on the front seat of the ladder trucks, so that when they get off and he (the captain) needs the camera, it's right there," Thomas said


    In one of the more idiotic comments to come out of the entire Sofa Super Store tragedy, a Captain named George Gardiner told Glenn Smith of the Post & Courier the following: He considers the expert panel's recommendations to be overly cautious "Yankee stuff."

    We won't go into the the CFD FF interviews on record voicing THEIR concerns(ID hidden), or Union requests concerning safety issues DENIED by the Chief and Mayor for years. We won't get into the panels recommendations, the SC OSHA violations. Just you waiting for the "official report".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Fred,help me out here.You lost me on the efficiency of LDH and backlays.Since this is something I've done a few times,I find it to be VERY effective.Back down the street/alley/goattrail and lay(LDH)to source and pump it.As you say,keeps the extra hardware out from underfoot and allows mucho dihydrogen monoxide to reach the attack piece.What did I miss? T.C.
    It has much to do with the ability to control the pressures on different size or length of lines with greater efficency in manpower and water usage and by not placing potential catastrophic failure points by using one large line to supply all lines or the majority of lines to an operation.

    Your operation isn't altogether bad as you are pumping from the source...it just creates some issues with needing an additional man at the manifold and the need to somehow provide the correct pressure to the lines comming off that mainifold. Placing all ones eggs in a single basket isn't something I'm comfortable with. Also keep in mind my comments are in regards to urban issues, you seem to be describing a rural senario which I can' understand as I've delt with similar lays, many years ago in a FD far, far away.

    Also remember I'm refering to the CFD which doesn't have 10,000s of feet of LDH and how it might have been more efficent for them to build a system around the evolutions they were familiar with and using the same hose they were already equiped with...this is in lieu of purchasing $10,000s worth of new hose affecting Engine design, operational as well as tactical issues. And yes this monumental change in Engine operations was arived upon in less than 1 business week by men who barely had enough time to learn how to get from their hotel to FD HQ let alone a comprehensive study of Charleston and their FDs needs!

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Gonzo Dude:

    Those quotes came from a website where former and current CFD members (as well as others) are posting. In fact, here are two more posts concerning water supply problems at the SSS fire. Seems pretty authentic to me. Seems like a legitimate source in my eyes.

    "We have master stream devices. On Engine 15 we got a topside mounted deluge gun(and yes some are in pieces to fit) and we got a interchangable 500 gpm fog nozzel on the rig as well. I believe engine 20 may have a topside gun,(so do all the old reserve MACKS-1970S) but everyone else its in the trucks compartment. Standard on Every other engine in the city is a deluge gun with 2 50ft sect. of 3 in hose. These are used, but not often".


    "I haven't written anything in a while because I wanted to read what everyone else had to say, so here is what is eating at my gut.Engine 11 was suppose to be first due in and was sent to the rear of the store,ok so I don't know what Chief Garvin had on his mind but Engine 11 followed what the chief told him to do.As Engine 11 proceeded back around to the front of the store,as the SOP's state,second due engine lays the supply line.What was the Acting Capt thinking?During the time it took Engine 11 to get around front Engine 10 became first in.So his first thought should have been(Lay # 10 a supply line)but something went wrong and Engine 11 ended up parked in front of the store.Who's getting water? from where? actually how long did it take before either Engine recieve a supply line?We have had big or bigger fires than the sss and as the engine co's were directed in they where told what was needed and were.It was left up to the Capt. to do what he was supposed to do.So what happened?The Chas.Museum fire downtown was big, low water pressure(always has been downtown)2 1/2 lines,deluge appliances,ladder trucks and that fire was brought under control. See what I'm getting at here?There was some mistakes made and 9 men died.We can have all the water in the world at our beck and call, it falls down to the Engine co's on how to use it.That day it wasn't used fully because Engine 11 created a situation that caused everything to spiral downward when they didn't lay a supply line to Engine 10.Some members in the Dept. have done far less and recieved 2 weeks off(without pay)Is not following our SOP's and causing a situation,that not until outlying co's got there did any engine co. recieve a supply line!So do you think LDH would have helped?(maybe!)We know how to use what we have and you need to follow on what you are trained to do.Do we put the blame on just one person? No! It does start at the top and works it's way down".
    First...lets remember only 15 YO f--otts in the Village address others by the title "dude" and it is usally while they are cruising for older men! Heard in context....(spoken with recent transplant hippy Californian accent) "Hey dude, I'm a submissive bottom looking for a power top...you game, dude?"

    Second if you read the comments that supposedly come from CFD firemen(for all you know I'm bipolar and I also post under my alter-ego which happens to be that of a Charleston Fireman!)...his statements support what you and other claim isn't required to pass judgement on this fire and Department. That is the SOPs in place (the ones you can't cite) were simply not followed and had they been, there might have been fewer problems. Why adopt a new system when the old system perhaps wasn't even broken...it just simply wasn't used!?!?!

    This man is making the argument that perhaps the proceedures that were in place were simply not followed and that complete overhaul and wholesale adoption of LDH isn't exactly what is needed most here. Perhaps a few more checks and ballances on who is responsible for water supply. Perhaps a greater focus on hydraulics for MPOs, perhaps some modifications on how or under what conditions their forward lay or In-line pumping evolutions are allowed to be utilized.

    This posting alone makes the case that without the supporting detalis and facts such as CFD Engine ops policy that nothing of worth can be discussed on these points. We will have to wait for a full comprehensive report that covers all the facts before making any judgements.

    Are you not going to answer any of the questions directed at you? You might be getting tired of everyone's attitude towards you...but I assure you we are more than tired of your cowardly avoidance of our questions and your continued arrogance despite your obvious inexperience and ignorance of the fire service.

    FTM-PTB

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    Gonzo Dude, it is a West Coust thing you obviously don't understand. You should feel honored in the name chnage!

    Pretty tame to the things I have been called here...Now this last post of yours listed 3 different places where you ask when am I going to answer your questions. Sure, bring them up, but I will not tell you the name of my work. It has no bearing here. In fact I have PM'd it to severals here, so they can see I do indeed have the required experience, I am not ignorance of procedures, and completely lack any arrogance..

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Gonzo Dude, it is a West Coust thing you obviously don't understand. You should feel honored in the name chnage!

    Pretty tame to the things I have been called here...Now this last post of yours listed 3 different places where you ask when am I going to answer your questions. Sure, bring them up, but I will not tell you the name of my work. It has no bearing here. In fact I have PM'd it to severals here, so they can see I do indeed have the required experience, I am not ignorance of procedures, and completely lack any arrogance..

    First of all.. you are so fracked you are answering FFFRed's post.

    You still come across as a "californicated" condescending, arrogant little *****.

    Until you can bring more factual information than "cut and paste" of snippets from the media and anonymous ranst from another forum to the discussion....

    Hasta la vista... "dude"
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Post taken from another website ....



    "I haven't written anything in a while because I wanted to read what everyone else had to say, so here is what is eating at my gut.Engine 11 was suppose to be first due in and was sent to the rear of the store,ok so I don't know what Chief Garvin had on his mind but Engine 11 followed what the chief told him to do.As Engine 11 proceeded back around to the front of the store,as the SOP's state,second due engine lays the supply line.What was the Acting Capt thinking?During the time it took Engine 11 to get around front Engine 10 became first in.So his first thought should have been(Lay # 10 a supply line)but something went wrong and Engine 11 ended up parked in front of the store.Who's getting water? from where? actually how long did it take before either Engine recieve a supply line?We have had big or bigger fires than the sss and as the engine co's were directed in they where told what was needed and were.It was left up to the Capt. to do what he was supposed to do.So what happened?The Chas.Museum fire downtown was big, low water pressure(always has been downtown)2 1/2 lines,deluge appliances,ladder trucks and that fire was brought under control. See what I'm getting at here?There was some mistakes made and 9 men died.We can have all the water in the world at our beck and call, it falls down to the Engine co's on how to use it.That day it wasn't used fully because Engine 11 created a situation that caused everything to spiral downward when they didn't lay a supply line to Engine 10.
    OK .... If this post is genuine CFD or not, this information has been reported by several sources elsewhere.

    Can you now see where I was going with my attempts to start some debate on such a situation occurring in your own response area? -
    • Which of your own engines would provide the initial supply?
    • Is it possible the first due can become the second due?
    • How do you deal with such a situation where the call to a 'structure' fire is called in by the first arriving BC as a 'trash' fire?
    • What is the psyche involved here?
    • Is it possible that the same circumstances could occur in your own backyard?

    You all seem self assured that this same set of circumstances could not arise? When prompted you all appeared confident that your initial responses to the same fire would ensure a supply line would be on the ground during the initial response.

    Well I am sure CFD would have said the same thing before the SSS fire but if this information is actually how things occurred .... then can you see .... it just might happen to you!

    Note: There is confirmation on the audio tapes that a Chief on scene was calling the second due (and possibly the first due) around the back of the store to deal with the 'trash'. There were at least two chiefs on scene as the initial response arrived. Who was in command? They were both giving directions to the initial response and secondary response and yet they were clearly not 'face to face' with each other, so contact between them had to be via radio. Under an ICS that was followed according to SOP, or a pre-assigned response, you would know who is/should be in command!

    Just because a senior rank is on-scene is not a reason to presume he/she is in command!
    • This is why ICS is critical
    • DevilDog..Yes I agree they are throwing abuse at you - stick with it dude!

    "californicated" condescending, arrogant little *****.
    Is that acceptable on the forum?!

  20. #960
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    So what you guys are saying is that if someone had been in charge, they would have directed Engine 11 to lay in thus providing water. I guess if you have one conductor you will have a well organized and orchestrated attack that provides a safe working environment. But then again, who wants that?

    I suspect the NIOSH report will be an interesting read for some of us, and FFFRed will find fault with it. He won't be able to accept it.

    Devildog, hang in there. Ignore the BS name calling and mud slinging, try to maintain a professional posture.

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