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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    FFFRED, please look again. Those specific comments came from post #31 NOT post #32. Again, those were cut & paste. Here is the link:

    http://www.firefighterhourly.com/fir...ire/index.html

    Look down at the article titled "Why The Panel Recomendations Tie In To The June 18th Fire", I think it is the 8th article from the top.
    So you posted some comments from someone's blog under your name? Presumably after reading what you have wrote, you agree with this man's assertions, no?

    Eitherway you or the guy you are a mouthpiece for are making some faulty assumptions and incorrect assertions based on what is supposedly the "standard" across the country.

    SWARMY, I think you are absolutely right, what I am saying comes across badlyto some. Point being is that if everyone thinks this fire was run properly and effectively and that no mistakes were made, THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN!

    To anyone with even an elementary knowledge of the profession, there were many critical mistakes made, most by the Chiefs and how they ran the fire. It resulted in the deaths of 9 firefighters. It could have been prevented. But people get defensive, and don't want to hear that.
    First I think an easy argument could be made that you don't even possess this "elementary knowledge"...second, No one is saying the fire was run perfectly...obviously there are some issues that need to be addressed, however your approach and obvious ignorance about the facts surounding these recomendations makes many of us to consider you and your comments (or cut and paste's) as nothing more than baseless conjecture and a self-agrandizing pat on ones own back.

    FTM-PTB


  2. #82
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    CFD's own members are posting on blogs that they have been trying to make these changes for years, but the Chief denied them. In fact here are posts from CFD firefighters on a blogsite:
    That's THEIR right, they earned. As I am not a Charleston firefighter, I choose not to throw stones at them, their organization, or their leadership. Especially before the official report comes out. When it does and there is information that is of value, I will take that and learn from it.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  3. #83
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    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:14 PM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    FFFD, our Lt's/Capt's go into one of 3 modes when they get on scene of a structure fire:

    1. Nothing showing investigating.
    2. Fast attack (they go in with hose and assume interior command, next unit
    on scene assumes incident command). Normally on rescue problem only,
    as we don't have sufficient manpower on one rig for 2 in- 2 out, RIT/RIC
    ventilation, utilities, etc.
    3. Command mode (wait for sufficient resources to direct as needed for
    functions/tasks.
    Go into Modes? What are you guys...Robocop? What does this have to do with the Charleston Fire or the inital recomendations? Interesting you don't have enough men to meet 2in-2out but this dept needs a complete overhaul and colonic because they don't meet your Californian high standards...but you guys fail to meet the most important "standard" of all.

    I never said I agreed to any blog postings assertations. I posted from newspaper and other sites, so readers can obtain a wide spread opinion of what went wrong at that fire.
    Do we need to revist your first posts on this subject? You clearly feel that they did many wrong things...and based on your statements and the opinions expressed in the postings you have coppied they didn't do what your dept thinks is best.

    I am making faulty assumptions and incorrect assertions based on what is supposedly the "standard" across the country? What does that mean? I'm wrong to say that the command system didn't work at that fire? What standard are you talking about? Clear text? Proper PPE? LDH?
    In short I'm refering to yours or the statements in your posts that refer to among other things, ICS and tactics and how the implementation of the former would influence the later when most would and have argued in these very forums that ICS has NOTHING to do with Tactics. (ie-a safety chief within ICS would have prevented the use of a certain size hose, Staging or some other abstract concept within ICS would have made this operation in SC or its outcome materially any different...etc.)

    BTW I've argued as many others have on here...that a "national standard" doesn't exist...perhaps a "national bare azz minimum level of competency" but not any standard that any of us has been able to establish...I've worked in 3 depts and vollied in a 4th in very different parts of the country...I assure you...there is nothing standard as my current depts standards would conflict my previous depts standards while being actually superior in form and practice, yet looked upon by others as reckless and completely unacceptable...there is nothing standard about that.

    Hell even the most ardent supporters of NFPA standards on these formums are probably the biggest violators of those very standards they champion...(1710, 14, 1500...etc.)

    What fact(s) surrounding the recommendations am I ignorant of?
    You don't appear to know what their current policy is in regards to obtaining positive water supply..what their hose beds are comprised of...their Engine Co. operations, who is assigned what duty...etc. Hard to discuss if these changes are positive or needed or even relevant to the circumstances unless we first know what they started with.

    And the smart money is on these "experts" completely overlooking many of these issues (some of which Batt 18 has touched on) because I know for a fact at least one of the departments represented in the panel believes in handing out fireground assignments like a pick-up football game and sees nothing wrong in it.

    And what was baseless conjecture?
    Unless you can cite what their policy was...what they did at the fire...and what the recomended changes are and why they are an improvement...then your statements (or those you posted from someone else) are nothing more than baseless conjecture.

    I've seen photos of off-duty guys in shorts, flip flops and tshirt handling hose at that fire.

    I've seen photos of someone (supposedly the FD mechanic) with no PPE on trying to gain entry into the building with an ax.

    I've seen photos with FF's with bunker pants on and no coat at a doorway directing water into the building.

    I've seen photos of the single 2 1/2" hoselay down the middle of the street.
    What does any of that have to do with ICS...or LDH...or any of the other recomendations that have been put forth? If you saw a photo of my Engine at a fire...depending on what is in the frame...you would also only see a 2 1/2handline down the middle of the street....without knowing what they were doing and where that line was going...one can't make that judgement.

    Again, to criticize the management of this fire and the lack of certain modern day standards is an attempt to open eyes and make sure this never happens again, NOT to bash the FF's. Those FF's died doing what they loved. May we all remember the sacrifice they gave.
    We've all seen video on here of fires and along with explanations of depts procedures and reasoning can contructive critisim be leveled and a discussion take place....I've yet to see a lengthy video or comprehensive report that allows for this and we have as of yet failed to learn what their operational policy is in regards to this or any other fire up until that date.

    SPFDRum: You are right, the official report is not out. But the preliminary results of the panels review is very troubling. Read it. To point out obviously blatant mistakes is not a bad thing. The observations/recomendations speak for themselves...
    They should have spoke for themselves because you certainly have done them no justice. Once again...you might have some valid points..however your approach and attitude is completely wrong and clouds the message you are trying to convey.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-21-2007 at 10:38 PM.

  5. #85
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Post Well......................

    Gentlemen......... Where the Hell do I start??......... I guess I'll start with agreeing with the Brother that said we need to see the WHOLE Report, and digest the information in it, before engaging in a bunch of Bychin back and forth at each other. My Department has ways of doing things, and I won't remotely suggest that we are Right. Or Wrong. I won't suggest that what we do will work for some other Department. It Might. Or, it might not. Here's some things that work FOR US, and a few thoughts from the back of my mind, some regarding items that I've noticed here.

    Water Supply. Our operations require the First Engine to go to Side 1, Side Alpha, The Front of the Building, or what ever you want to call it. That Engine WILL lay a Supply Line (3 inch) on the way in. The Second Engine WILL pick up that line and pump it from the Hydrant. Third Engine will lay to the rear, Fourth Engine WILL pump his line......... You get the Idea.

    I can't comment on Booster Lines, we haven't bought a Booster Reel (except the Brush Unit) since 1969.

    Does anyone think that a Hydrant only having Two 2.5 Outlets can exist on a ISO Class 1 Water System?? I don't.

    I've been in Command on a few Fires over the Years. I've used the Incident Command System since the 1970s, and I've NEVER found it necessary to appoint a Logistics Officer. Actually, there are a lot of Positions that I haven't filled on the Chart, BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T NEEDED ON THAT INCIDENT. ICS IS A GREAT TOOL. But it is composed of Subjective Guidelines. It is NOT set in Stone.

    When you are the Incident Commander, you ABSOLUTELY must have a better plan than the Fire has.

    When I am the Incident Commander I MUST be easily recognized as such, even by total strangers.

    Since the beginning of Civilization, Fire has been best extinguished by Water. LOTS of Water, the more you get, the better off you are.

    A Chief accomplishes more by coordinating the efforts of others, not doing it all by himself.

    We CAN stop repeating History, We just have to work harder.

    These are a few things that I put a lot of Faith in. If they work for you, fine. If not, make adjustments, adapt, and overcome. Stay Safe Out There.
    Last edited by hwoods; 08-22-2007 at 01:07 AM.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I agree what you mention is all good stuff to have...however I've been asking for and have yet to see printed what policies they have in place today or those in place on the day of the Sofa store fire.

    If we don't know what they are doing now...how can we even begin to have a discussion on what the proposed changes are if we don't even know what they stared with?

    FTM-PTB
    I suspect that those printed policies are going to be very difficult to get. Reasons 1. there is an ongoing investigation. 2. There could be potential legal issues, such as a law suit or criminal charges. If they exist I'm sure they are under close guard.

    Based on the recommendations we certainly know what they aren't doing.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    I suspect that those printed policies are going to be very difficult to get. Reasons 1. there is an ongoing investigation. 2. There could be potential legal issues, such as a law suit or criminal charges. If they exist I'm sure they are under close guard.

    Based on the recommendations we certainly know what they aren't doing.
    There are a copy of my FDs procedures in every company and at least 1/3 of the job have their own personal copy...they are public record and I can't imagine this not being the case in any other dept. I know the other depts I've worked for have the manuals distributed in every firehouse and I doubt Charleston is very different in that regard.

    Either way even if they are hard to come by...that too leads us to the conclusion that no one can make any rational statements about this issue without the proper context...and if the policies are locked up as you say...then we must wait for an offical report to understand the relevance of the suggestions.

    FTM-PTB

  8. #88
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    I'll agree, everyone should have a copy of the department procedures, how else would they know what to follow? Heck, we even have ours posted on our website.

    They are not supposed to be a secret.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #89
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    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:18 PM.

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    Last edited by devildog4; 08-28-2007 at 11:19 PM.

  11. #91
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Unbelievable! So now we need to see the CFD SOP’s before we can say that the command & control was incompetent,
    And again I will remind you that part of the command and control of that incident were three company officers and one acting officer that gave their lives in this fire....incompetent? How much more urine are you going to expel on their graves to get your point across you self serving mutt? You gonna start on the FDNY brothers next? How about Worcester? I'm sure you can find something in those tragedies that doesn't meet the standards of your freakin left caostr utopia...

  12. #92
    Forum Member MPVFD2046's Avatar
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    Default LDH, Seatbelts,and a lot of recs.

    Ok, the following is what I know from talking to several charleston firefighters several years ago:

    What I was told is that they used dual lines or sometimes just one 3inch line due to narrow streets and an older water system. That is all I know about water supply from the CFD. With that said my former department used dual 3inch lines because of narrow streets and a limited water supply in the area.

    As far as the seatbelt thing goes....I have no idea how a seatbelt was to be used inside a structure fire. (sorry FFFred).

    I will say this. In light of this tragedy I stand by the families of the fallen and hope to g-d that we can all learn from this and that a large loss of life can be prevented.

    -Stay safe and let us all learn something from this

  13. #93
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    I got so ******ed reading I had to say something.

    I am personally offended by you freakin "experts" claiming to have intimate knowledge, and say "they should have done this, they should have done that" to a department half way across the country! It always seems like the same people ranting about the same stuff.

    Stop your fingerpointing and wait for the official report. Read the official report and learn from it. Compare that with your own department. What works for one place, may not work for others. There is room for improvement in every department, why don't you worry about your own department.

    Let me refer you back up to Chief Harve's post.........That will explain it all.
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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I got so ******ed reading I had to say something.

    I am personally offended by you freakin "experts" claiming to have intimate knowledge, and say "they should have done this, they should have done that" to a department half way across the country! It always seems like the same people ranting about the same stuff.

    Stop your fingerpointing and wait for the official report. Read the official report and learn from it. Compare that with your own department. What works for one place, may not work for others. There is room for improvement in every department, why don't you worry about your own department.

    Let me refer you back up to Chief Harve's post.........That will explain it all.
    i think you are totally right.the official report will "explain" many things .
    "sauver ou périr"

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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor View Post
    And again I will remind you that part of the command and control of that incident were three company officers and one acting officer that gave their lives in this fire....incompetent? How much more urine are you going to expel on their graves to get your point across you self serving mutt? You gonna start on the FDNY brothers next? How about Worcester? I'm sure you can find something in those tragedies that doesn't meet the standards of your freakin left caostr utopia...
    I don't see any 'self serving mutts' expelling urine .... what I do see are different opinions on how far people can go at this stage in publicly voicing/debating the tapes; the images; the videos that are out there. I can see both sides of the argument, but lets get away from attacking those who express their views that there are issues here that may be influenced by public opinion and pressure.

    I have seen debates on this forum about how many of you totally disrespect the qualifications of those tasked with investigating this fire and yet, the very same people are crying ... 'wait for the reports'!

    Lets get it clear .. no attacks are being made on individuals but rather the systems that functioned at that fire. In effect, the 'individuals' are being supported by such views. The only person I can see who is accountable if those systems failed would be the one who has overall responsibility for putting those systems in place. If the systems failed through unforeseen circumstances then that is yet to be decided.

    Whichever way that goes, there are obvious lessons to learn here. I always assess the final reports but read between the lines. What the author writes is not necessarily gospel in my eyes and I will use my experience and knowledge to form practical conclusions.

    As FFFred states, not everyone agrees the third engine on-scene should be a RIT. So use your own experience and knowledge to form your own conclusions. I see no finger pointing or attacking of those individuals who made their own decisions under great duress. This thread is all about 'system failure' .. because that's what obviously occurred according to the mass of evidence for all to see. This system failure may have killed nine of Charleston's very bravest. If that can happen once it can happen again. Look closely at this fire .. debate it .. learn today what you can from it ... that is what the Captains and firefighters would have wanted us to do.

    I don't see anyone here disrespecting those that were so tragically lost.

  16. #96
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    ...I don't see anyone here disrespecting those that were so tragically lost.
    I guess you are the only one then.


    the command & control was incompetent, personnel accountability was lacking , water supply ineffective, proper PPE was not worn by everyone, etc, etc?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #97
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    Questions: Were they not initially called for a dumpster fire in the rear of the building?

    What was the first line they pulled for that dumpster?


    I keep seeing people talking about the booster line being pulled interior, yet reports I have seen say they were pulled later when off duty guys were showing up. Does anyone have the FACTS yet as to what lines were pulled when?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  18. #98
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    ILets get it clear .. no attacks are being made on individuals but rather the systems that functioned at that fire. In effect, the 'individuals' are being supported by such views. The only person I can see who is accountable if those systems failed would be the one who has overall responsibility for putting those systems in place. If the systems failed through unforeseen circumstances then that is yet to be decided.

    .
    Sorry Batt, but I must respectfully disagree: systems can fail, systems can be flawed, but systems CAN NOT be incompetent,but PEOPLE can, and one individual used that very term to describe the command of this fire, and I'm sorry but that is indeed attacking individuals who died and individuals who lived and will be haunted and scarred by this incident for the rest of their lives. Do I think CFD has problems that need correcting? Absolutely. But I am appaled at the vigor and the venom in whicg this department has been attacked since this has happened. Unfortunately there are new LODDs posted on Firehouse every week and lately it seems like every day...except for Lairdsville and Baltimore where is the outrage at those times? Where is the outcry for what was screwed up by the department involved in those instances?

  19. #99
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    FFFD,
    I've seen photos of off-duty guys in shorts, flip flops and tshirt handling hose at that fire.

    I've seen photos of someone (supposedly the FD mechanic) with no PPE on trying to gain entry into the building with an ax.

    .
    Let me ask you one question tough guy: in your department if the word got around via cell phone, scanner, and reports on the local radio station that there was a major fire in progress and brothers were missing, how many people in your department would have burned rubber to the scene and did EXACTLY what these off duty CFD guys did? How about you yourslf? How about anyone else on here?

  20. #100
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Knight - 'Incompetent' is not a word I would use and not a word I like in relation to the topic. However, it can be argued that any incompetency might be the result of failing or flawed systems and not directly that of any individual actions or inactions. There may have been incompetency by individuals but I am not (and I don't believe others here) are inferring this in any way.

    Bones uses a 'quote' above ....
    the command & control was incompetent, personnel accountability was lacking , water supply ineffective, proper PPE was not worn by everyone, etc, etc?
    These points are most apparent in the evidence but it is the systematic failings that allows these things to happen, the criticism is directed at the culture and systems not the individuals.

    BTW, people were on-scene in shorts & flip flops long before there were brothers trapped or missing. There were reportedly many self deployments at this fire and this must be discouraged and avoided through effective established procedure. I have no doubt that the guys were there with the very best intentions and I am sure many of us would have been also. However, this doesn't mean its right or safe practice. It must be avoided and controlled.

    Bones .. they were called to a possible structure fire. There are boosters deployed in early images, pre-flashover. Some of these were reportedly used as 'lifelines' in last ditch efforts to reach downed firefighters.
    Last edited by Batt18; 08-23-2007 at 11:07 AM.

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