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  1. #981
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    FFFred:

    I found these posted to you from FyredUp on another thread. My point exactly: You seem to have this habit of forcing your opinion upon others taking no concessions or yielding. FDNY all or nothing.

    "It is pointless to try and talk to you about this. I will concede nothing to you on this topic. What WE do works for us. What you do works for you. I will not tell you to do what we do. Yet you insist if I am not doing it the FDNY way I am wrong. Just shaking my head at the absolute closed mindedness of this".


    "I am not attacking your choice of hose line or nozzle because you can justify it...I would wish you would open your mind to the possibility that what others do has been as equally well thought out".

    Here's an isea for you...LEAVE ME OUT OF YOUR ARGUMENT WITH THESE GUYS. I don't believe I had even posted in this topic so why drag me into it?

    As for the post you chose to copy and paste...FFFRED and I have disagreed on many things over the years. Doesn't mean I don't respect him, just means in my opinion, using my circumstances he is not always right. he is however always right about what the FDNY does.

    In the future leave me out of YOUR battles.

    Thanks,

    FyredUp


  2. #982
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    You forgot to tell him to have a nice day !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  3. #983
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    It's been released, the Phase 1 Report. Part 2 of "the Panel's" report to the City of Charleston.

  4. #984
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    Did anyone else find the wording of the apparatus suggestions a bit odd?

    Am I reading it correctly that they recomend LDH but it would seem that Charleston has the option of switching to "forward lays" thus implying that they used reverse or backstretches routinely??? Perhaps I missed something but it would seem the recomendations fly in the face of current practices and procedures. If I am reading them correctly(Reverse stretches) are among the best models and practiced by some of the busiest and most expereinced FDs around the country. I'm sure there might have been some room for change or improvement...but a reconfiguration and purchase of 1000s of yards of 4 inch or 5 inch hose despite operational needs that utilize 2 1/2" hose in a different manner?

    Why would an apparatus committee be asked to suggest recomendations for what is clearly an operational issue not a equipment issue?(ie.-plan for attack lines, nozzles, configuration..etc.)

    What kind of amature effort is this?

    Does the CFD currently utilize a reverse stretch as a SOP at many if not most of their fires? Anyone with any facts?

    Anyone else get the feeling that this committee of experts cheated the citizens and firemen of Charleston?

    FTM-PTB

  5. #985
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    Page 32, first point. Upgrade 1 1/2" lines to 1 3/4" lines with fixed gallonage or automatic nozzles.

    second point...install jump lines with 100 or 150' of 1 1/2" line.


    and then, on page 35, under priority C (the lowest priority)...
    "install sprinklers and alarms" - thanks for giving the guys some priority.



    Overall, an interesting read in my opinion.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #986
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    FFFred, are you refering to the bullet on page 32?

    In the event that the Charleston Fire Department chooses to utilize a
    forward hose lay for supply lines, purchase hydrant valves (Humat or
    similar) for all front line and reserve engine companies.
    I just took it as them covering their bases. If CFD opts to go to forward lays (which I know a number of departments do with LDH), they should consider the hydrant valves to another engine can boost hydrant pressure.

    I do like the looks of this report a lot more than I do the preliminary report. However, I think it has a lot to be desired. I'm sure it makes sense to the CFD people who are familiar with their protocols, policies, etc. However, if one isn't fully familiar (like myself), it'd be nice to see where the basis of their recommendations come from. Why should they go to this or that, what reasoning the change is based on, and what the old way of doing it is.

    It looks to me like they hired a group to tell them what everyone else is doing and what NFPA recommends. Which, I guess is the role of a consulting firm (maybe I'm in the wrong job ). I'll be curious to see what else comes out of them. I'm even more curious to see some reports on the actual fire.

  7. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Interesting.

    Page 32, first point. Upgrade 1 1/2" lines to 1 3/4" lines with fixed gallonage or automatic nozzles.

    second point...install jump lines with 100 or 150' of 1 1/2" line.


    and then, on page 35, under priority C (the lowest priority)...
    "install sprinklers and alarms" - thanks for giving the guys some priority.



    Overall, an interesting read in my opinion.
    I noticed that, too. The installation of the exhaust capture systems I thought was a bit higher priority than a lot of "Priority A" items as well. To me, there's a lot of scewed priorities in there.

  8. #988
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    To me, there's a lot of scewed priorities in there.
    Depends on who's priorities your are working on.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Depends on who's priorities your are working on.
    Ahh, how true.

  10. #990
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    I'm a little confused about this:

    "Opportunities for company officer and command officer training should also be
    prioritized, particularly National Fire Academy classes and programs hosted by other fire departments. The Charleston Fire Department should also take advantage of opportunities to visit other fire departments and observe their established systems, such as the recent visits to Montgomery County, Maryland to observe their command officer training program."


    Are they saying the state programs ( http://www.scfa.state.sc.us/PDF%20Fi...um_Catalog.pdf ) are no good or that the city hasn't been using them? They have some apparently good training available. See Page 22 in the posted link.

    I know of places where municipalities use a state facility to augment their in-house initial training programs and it seems to work pretty well.
    I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

  11. #991
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    I browsed over the report, then I read it. i need to read it again to really understand and comprehend what is being said. I do believe that implementing everything in this report will make CFD a model department. It also looks like a very good guide and starting point for any FD wishing to be the best that they can be.

    The one thing that jumped out at me was .
    • Upgrade the current recruit training program to a 14-week curriculum based on NFPA 1001 requirements to achieve Firefighter I and II IFSAC compliant certification program, including hazardous materials awareness and operations levels.
    I found it hard to believe that professional department was not following the established training for new recruits.

    I also noticed references to several other national standards as well, NFPA 1403, NFPA 1500, and a couple of others.

    There also appears to be some serious under staffing issues as well. For those I blame the chief and the mayor.

  12. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    FFFred, are you refering to the bullet on page 32?

    I just took it as them covering their bases. If CFD opts to go to forward lays (which I know a number of departments do with LDH), they should consider the hydrant valves to another engine can boost hydrant pressure.

    I do like the looks of this report a lot more than I do the preliminary report. However, I think it has a lot to be desired. I'm sure it makes sense to the CFD people who are familiar with their protocols, policies, etc. However, if one isn't fully familiar (like myself), it'd be nice to see where the basis of their recommendations come from. Why should they go to this or that, what reasoning the change is based on, and what the old way of doing it is.

    It looks to me like they hired a group to tell them what everyone else is doing and what NFPA recommends. Which, I guess is the role of a consulting firm (maybe I'm in the wrong job ). I'll be curious to see what else comes out of them. I'm even more curious to see some reports on the actual fire.
    That was the bullet I was refering to.

    And my take is that if it was the predominant method of stretching at a fire they would have simply made it a recomendation like all the other suggestions in this report.

    However they specifically mentioned (paraphrase)"if they choose to utilize a forward strech" and thus placed qualifing conditions upon that suggestion for a hydrant valve of some sort(I'm not familiar with Humat Valves).

    Which brings me back to my original question...does the CFD predominantly use backstreches(reverse lays) for their handlines from the Engines at fires? Can anyone cite CFD procedures? Why else would they have made this statement?

    Did they make suggestions without proper assement of the operational practices and needs of the CFD? Was it partially because they established conclusions after 4 days on the job in an unfamiliar city in which none of these men ever worked?

    Furthermore I still wonder why an apparatus committee would be tasked with operational issues such as the number of hose lines and lengths. This only futhers my belief that this was a half-azzed attempt of a report by a handful of amatures that would probably be very wary of a review of their Fire Departments and their practices.

    Then again...remember who was paying their salaries.

    Best of Luck to the brothers in Charleston.

    FTM-PTB

  13. #993
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    Drafts and portions of the consultant's report on the Charleston Fire Department were provided to Mayor Joe Riley and other city officials a month before the city publicly released the final report Wednesday. City officials were allowed to suggest changes as the final document was crafted.

    Sections from a draft of the report were first shared with city officials about a month ago, and the panel began sharing full drafts with the city about two weeks ago.

    But a copy of an earlier draft of the report differs from the final version released Wednesday. While the recommendations that make up the bulk of the report don't appear to have been changed substantially, the final report has a softer tone.

    For example, a draft version recommended that Thomas meet regularly with representatives of the local firefighters' union. But the city asked that this recommendation be changed from "union" to "organizations" because state right-to-work laws bar the city from engaging in collective bargaining.

    One earlier section stated that "the Charleston Fire Department should establish a goal of developing a safety-based organizational structure." That was changed to: "The recommendations presented in this report place a strong emphasis on firefighter health and safety." "Weaknesses" in the department was changed to "concerns."

    Another section that referred to "the need for training and education at every level of the Charleston Fire Department" was changed to indicate that the review team placed "a high priority" on training.

    Another draft section read: "Implementation of a Health and Safety Program will be a major effort requiring numerous changes throughout the Charleston Fire Department." The final report states only that "commitment" would be required.

    In another section, the panel trimmed a sentence that was critical of "the piecemeal fashion" in which the fire department sends additional resources to an emergency scene.

    City Councilman Henry Fishburne said he was impressed by the panel's recommendations but disappointed to learn that the process wasn't "completely hands off. That takes away from the credibility of the process, and we don't need that. This is just too important," he said. "If we are really trying to do what we need to do in the right way, we need to do it honestly and openly and with the help of disinterested third parties, with no involvement from the mayor, the fire chief or city attorneys."

  14. #994
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    Air tank policy gets attention
    The Post and Courier
    Thursday, October 18, 2007

    Recommendations address size, storage and number of units

    Charleston firefighters wading through darkness and thick, black smoke at the Sofa Super Store fire on June 18 trusted their lives to the air flowing from tanks strapped to their backs.

    Aside from an adequate supply of water, the Self Contained Breathing Apparatus, or SCBA, is among the most important tools in firefighting.

    Yet, the city's fire department lacks adequate polices for maintaining, storing and testing this crucial piece of equipment, according to a report from a panel of consultants recommending ways to improve the department.

    All nine of the firefighters killed at the sofa store died from smoke inhalation and severe burns. An air tank was found with each body inside the store and investigators are examining the condition of those tanks. No determination has been made.

    Of the report's nearly 200 recommendations, several deal with these air tanks.


    Mayor Joe Riley said Wednesday that the fire department has issued a new policy on storing the tanks full. "Gee, thanks Mayor!, I never would have thought of keeping the SCBA bottles full"

    The report also recommends that the department upgrade its hodgepodge of different brands of SCBA units to a single brand that meets all current national standards.

    When looking to buy this new equipment, the city should consider purchasing larger-capacity air tanks that could provide up to 45 minutes of air, the panel recommends. Riley said Wednesday that the city intends to purchase the larger-capacity tanks.

    The city now uses 30-minute air tanks, which may actually provide less air in real world conditions where firefighters are stressed and breathing heavily. "I thought most FD's use 45's?"

    Firefighters also should be provided with individual face masks to deliver the air, the report says. Firefighters working different shifts now share these face masks, a practice that some health experts warn against because it can communicate diseases. "Again, I thought most FD's issue personal masks to each individual".

    Other SCBA-related recommendations include purchasing a mobile air compressor to refill expired air tanks at fire scenes. At the sofa store blaze, some firefighters had to ask around for fresh tanks of air after they used up their first ones.

    The state office of Occupational Safety and Health Administration recently cited the city for four violations stemming from the fire department's handling of the sofa store blaze. Among the violations, the state fined the city a total of $525 for four instances in which firefighters exposed to smoke and toxic substances did not wear air packs.

    Burning sofas can emit dangerous fumes because they contain polyurethane foam, a highly combustible material that some fire protection experts liken to solid gasoline.

    The city has appealed the state's findings and is awaiting a formal hearing.

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    For all those proposing that we should wait to pass judgement until the report was here, it’s here!

    Asked what he thinks the report says about the state of the fire department before the sofa store fire, Chief Riley said: "To me it says that we have a very good fire department. We were meeting standards and requirements but there are opportunities for the achievement of national-best practices." Business as usual ...ONLY in Charleston, SC . WTF? 9 of his guys were killed due to his incompetence!

    How can the Chief be "excited" about a report that screams utter incompetence? It's like he has opened his book of politically-correct responses for this report .. using snippets like "excited" and "..to allow our excellent fire department to move to a new level of achievement" .. as if the department is now moving from "excellent" to "stellar" instead of from "incompetent" to "just acceptable".

    His remaining in his position is nothing short of an insult to the CFD FF’s. Make him the poster boy for sadistic incompetence...

    Charleston Firefighters have complained for years; area fire departments have complained for years; the local union has complained and filed law suits for years. Now Fire House Magazine writers are condemning; Fire Engineer Magazine articles are condemning; Fire Chief Magazines are condemning; The International Firefighters Association are condemning; SC OSHA and Charleston's own handpicked panel of experts are condemning and still we have a few on here that aren't listening. They even question the report…

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    Just thought you would be interested

    http://www.charlestoncity.info/lists/contacts.aspx


    Don't forget to say hi to the mayor.
    Last edited by Geinandputitout; 10-18-2007 at 11:45 PM.

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    After the report was publicly issued, the CFD Chief said "Our priorities are safety, firefighter accountability and incident command". WTF? Does that mean those were NOT a priority before? It took the report to figure that out?

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    Updated: 10-18-2007 08:39:02 PM
    HARRY R. CARTER
    Firehouse.Com Contributor

    My friends, the time has come to take off the gloves with regard to the situation in Charleston, S.C. I am simply amazed that Mayor Joe Riley does not get it. He has attempted to put more moves on us than anyone I have ever seen on that mediocre television show, "Dancing with the Stars." He kind of reminds me of the episode I saw with Emmit Smith last season.

    Mr. Mayor, you cannot have it both ways. You either have a fire department which is functional or you do not. You either come into the 21st Century or remain stuck in the early 20th. Mayor Riley has apparently missed the entire point of the Phase 1 report that the Routley Committee delivered this week.

    These fine and dedicated professionals have delivered a template for success. I believe that Harold Schaitberger, General President of the International Association of Firefighters spoke for many of us when he stated that, "Mayor Joe Riley's characterization of this report as a "management review" minimizes the significance of the June 18 tragedy, the loss of nine dedicated lives, and the need for immediate and real change."

    Let me go Mr. Schaitberger one better. I think that Mayor Riley expected that a coat of white-wash would be made available for him to liberally paint over the problems in his fire department. Sorry Mr. Mayor, you picked the wrong people for a white-wash festival. I have known all of the members of the committee for a long time. They are all knowledgeable professionals. They know that the rest of us out here would be watching them closely. They have done well.

    They came in, met with the troops, kept good notes and made what many of us in the fire service consider to be good, solid recommendations. They had a job to do and they did it. Their report covers the salient points which are necessary if the future course of the Charleston Fire Department is to be redirected toward the far shore of firefighter safety.

    Mr. Schaitberger has struck the nail directly on the head. He went on to state that, "this is a landmark report that highlights hundreds of problems and failures in a fire department whose policies and procedures contributed significantly to the deaths of nine fire fighters. The findings of the independent panel are significant because this is the group that Mayor Riley hand-picked to investigate the June 18 tragedy. The Mayor's own panel is recommending that the fire department be completely rebuilt from the ground up."

    I have often written that loyalty is a good thing. It is, up to a point. That point is the moment when loyalty trumps safety.

    Mr. Schaitberger points this out for all to see when he states that, "the mayor's hand-picked chief developed the dangerous policies and programs implemented over the last 15 years in CFD -- the very policies that have been identified by OSHA as willful and seriously negligent violations. Clearly, with this as his legacy, the mayor and his chief are not qualified to rebuild CFD."

    The question is: How could this mayor let the leadership of CFD get so far out of control that an independent panel would find hundreds of failures with the policies and procedures of the department? Was this the same chief who said that he would not change the policies because they were just fine? Just fine my Aunt Patootie.

    I am sickened by the repeated claims of Mayor Riley that a new day and a new era have arrived. Nonsense, my friends, that is just so much fluff and window dressing. If the City of Charleston is going to truly move on they must do so under a new leader. Like I said, loyalty is an admirable trait, however in many instances it is misplaced indeed.

    Like Mr. Schaitberger said, this "is the third official condemnation of the way the Charleston Fire Department has been built and is run, and the report provides over 200 reasons for new, fresh, qualified leadership at the top." I agree. At what point will the mayor come to realize that he and his chief are wrong and that their day in the sun has passed.

    I have received literally scores of emails and photographs from people who may well be in the Charleston Fire Department. In many cases they asked me to keep their confidence and not release their names. Many did not include a name. As I have followed this matter from afar I can see why they were afraid to go public. This was a fire department run in the old way, and I do not mean that in a positive, good-old days sort of way.

    I understand this problem. As one who spent a great many years in a similar environment I know their pain. Many of my best years were spent in a place where fear, intimidation and retribution were the management tools of choice. For that reason the names of these folks will never leave my lips, nor see the light of day in any fashion.

    If you will recall, I wrote about the Charleston battalion chief who tried to pick a fight with me in Atlanta. He took issue with my "Booster Lines, Bullies, and Buffoons" article. Needless to say I did not take the bait. Guess what my friends, I was right. They used booster lines for structural firefighting.

    The day after this interaction Mr. Routley made a presentation at the General Meeting of the American Branch of the Institution of Fire Engineers. He covered the preliminary report which had just been released at that time and spoke first of the issue of booster line firefighting. Any fire department that is using booster lines (or worse yet high-pressure booster lines) for structural firefighting in the 21st Century deserves to be drummed out of the League of Effective and Efficient Firefighters.

    I am afraid that the mayor and the fire chief in Charleston have failed to understand that the changes recommended in the Routley Report are more than just a car wash, oil change, and tire rotation. You cannot jump from being patently unsafe one day to being a champion of safety over coffee one morning.

    There are a number of issues which will require new equipment, intensive training, and a top-down commitment to change. Sorry Charley, I do not see that happening anytime soon. Of course I could be wrong. Perhaps the Safety Fairy will fly over Charleston and sprinkle his special "safety dust" over the entire city.

    Now here comes the real warning. Charleston got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. How many fire departments in North America are still operating just like Charleston? How many have skated on thin ice for so long that they would not know how to operate with real 8-inch February ice from Minnesota.

    I know of one fire department in Pennsylvania who acquired a new pumper. That unit came in equipped with two booster lines and a high-pressure pump. What in the hell are they doing out there, spraying fruit as a fund-raiser for their department? These things were rendered obsolete two decades ago or more. Like I said Charleston got caught. Are you equally at fault? I detest do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do people.

    Until we notice something of substance occur I would suggest that the mayor continue practicing his steps and hoping for a spot on an upcoming "Dancing with the Stars" show. Mayor Riley, put away the brush because the white-wash delivery never arrived.

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    "I thought most FD's use 45's?"
    No.

    "Again, I thought most FD's issue personal masks to each individual".
    Again, No.

    I hope the guys that made these recommendations have more knowledge/experience than you do.


    And don't try to use blowhard Harry as a credible idea of what the fire service should be today.

    Any fire department that is using booster lines (or worse yet high-pressure booster lines) for structural firefighting in the 21st Century deserves to be drummed out of the League of Effective and Efficient Firefighters.
    I believe there are lots of these in use in England every day...and it's still standing.
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    Wow!!! Somebody woke up the sleeping dog.

    The comment on 45 minute bottles. I know many around here went with the 30 minute bottle. There have been departments that upgraded their packs and went with 30 minute bottles as well. I wrote a grant a few years back and we got new air packs with 45 minute air bottles as well as 2 RIT bags with 60 minute bottles. In addition we got a spare bottle for each pack and 4 more 60 minute bottles. There were the old-timers who said we don't need the 45 minute air bottles because you get tired enough working wit ha 30 minute, Once the 30 is out you need to take a break they would say. Back then it was 2 bottles then rehab. Hard to enforce to say the least. Now it is 1 bottle then rehab. Also, we have more air left at 25% with the bigger bottles. It was a hard sell but I broke the tradition and got er done.

    And no, not everyone has their own face piece either. Although, I wrote that into our grant as well, so we have our own face pieces. Some departments just aren't as forward thinking.

    But as a whole, I have read the report, and there were many times I had to re-read things and say to myself, you have to be kidding me, this was supposed to be a professional department. Our little department out here in rural Mayberry was farther ahead with our volunteers than these guys were. BTW, I don't blame the Fire Fighters, I blame the leadership. Chiefs and Captains to be specific. These are the guys who are supposed to know better, be more educated, and be the guiding light. I think they got stuck in the rut, "it works for us".

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