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  1. #1021
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Trots,I think you'd make good foundation material or perhaps nuclear shielding."Always done this way"is NOT necessarily bad.Tradition is CERTAINLY not a bad thing."It works for us".My favorite because it does.New,state of the art,people intensive is NOT necessarily the best way.What works for us in our area may NOT in yours.Nor is there any way a "national"ruling or policy is going to make it so.As I've already explained,we are very comfortable(and effective)in our operations spanning towns,cities,counties,and statewde ops.Is it ICS? Yes. Is it yours and Dogs version of ICS? NO. Will it intergrate into Nims? Easily,if necessary.Could California use it? Doubtful,wrong mind set there. Point being: Different demographics and geographical jurisdictions will dictate a difference of opinion on how to get things done.No amount of governmental interference is ever going to make that completely go away.So fix your areas,get your neighbors to,and theirs. Then most of the "problems"will go away.I know this is Waaaay too simple but...... T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 10-22-2007 at 12:00 PM.


  2. #1022
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    You guys don't get it

    The PC will never be a viable business product
    Cars with internal combustion engines will never be better than the horse and carriage.
    Man will never fly.

    There are a whole bunch of people who know and realize that there is always room for improvement. Those who say it is working just fine right now need to step aside and let those of us who want to fix the problems move on and get the job done.

    I never said there was version of the ICS that is the best. I have said that there are always ways to do things better. GEEEE, I wonder if that is why NFPA is constantly changing their standards? And some of the NFPA standards do have teeth as OSHA points directly to the NFPA standards in their regulations.

    Show me one person who says they have the perfect fire department and I will show you a fool.

  3. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    You guys don't get it
    Actually, I think that you are being to general. It's not always that new things are better, it's not always that tradition is worthless.

    Better to stick to the topic and not speak in such generalities.

    Yes, cars are better than horse and buggy. But did you ever own a Gremlin?

    Not all things new are ideal, but all new things should be reviewed for their individual merit.

    I also don't hear anyone saying that their fire department is perfect. Well, except for that guy from California. LOL
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  4. #1024
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    WHO doesn't "get it"? Take a LONG look in the shiny glass for the correct answer.Experience (lots)tells me YOU are not always right.In fact.......... People with more fire experience in a month than you have in your LIFETIME have tried to point you in the right direction.Still you insist on following Dog off the cliff. Next time find a better cliff. Neither one of you has much active fire experience in my opinion.This is based on your writings which do not indicate the way a seasoned line "bull"would think or act. So live in your world,I'll continue to protect my citizens with KNOWN practices and procedures improved over countless hours of operation and time. T.C.

  5. #1025
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    150 years ago, most gentlemen put their pants on one leg a time. That's still working for most gentlemen. Do we need to find a better way?

    I will show you a fool.
    Emailing your picture around again?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #1026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    150 years ago, most gentlemen put their pants on one leg a time. That's still working for most gentlemen. Do we need to find a better way?
    150 years ago, a bunch of folks dressed in blue and grey wore wool year-round while fighting the enemy too. There's always room for improvement.

  7. #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    150 years ago, most gentlemen put their pants on one leg a time. That's still working for most gentlemen. Do we need to find a better way?

    Emailing your picture around again?
    Good point, they did however come up with better pants. And I'm working on that both legs at once routine. Once I get it perfected I will publish it.

  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Good point, they did however come up with better pants. And I'm working on that both legs at once routine. Once I get it perfected I will publish it.
    Sure, parachute pants.... oh wait, noone wears those anymore. Guess it wasn't better.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  9. #1029
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    ChicagoFF, you are doing it again. I asked a question relating to BA bottles, and you try and make me out like I don't know **** from shinola. Let me tell ya'll supin ya ken undrstan. Everbody we operate/run with auto aid/mutual aid all have the same 4500 bottle, same fittings, same RIT quick connect fittings. Whole County runs that way. So who exactly is wrong here?
    Who is wrong? You - for assuming that because your one engine department does something it must be some sort of "national standard".

    Old-school traditional 30's vs new more-advanced, lighter 45's
    200 years of tradition unhampered by progress.
    We use both so where does that put us? Old school - or no fire, small time, inexperienced - you know, like you.

    And BTW,the "great State of California" is a relative newcomer to the game.
    you are right about that.
    You are absolutely right,however we kinda went from black rubber coats to yellow nomex.
    When did you ever wear a "black rubber coat" to a fire? I did last December. And quite a few times before that. It's in my locker right now. How about you? What does the color have to do with anything? Yellow??? Whatever.
    From 3/4 boots to bunker pants.
    Have you ever worn 3/4 boots to a fire? Never, right? So yet another opinion with no experience to back it up. By the way, When did your department go to bunker gear? I'll bet you Chicago was in pants long before your department. We tried them, found them to be wanting, and got rid of them. Now here we go again...
    Refined ICS procedure to help make it a National Standard.
    National standard. Keep dreaming. I have never heard a guy make having a recently developed plan such a point of pride. What did you do before? Run around like nitwits? You think having sop's is some sort of new idea? What other newly aquired talents do you have? Peeing standing up? Everyone else already does it so don't try and claim you invented that too.
    Made accountability tags and passports for our area.
    OOOh, you made tags? Real name tags? Wow, cool. Whats next for you go getters?

    You know what might impress everyone even more than all this Bu!!*****? If anyone thought you had any real expeience to back it all up. Lets us know when you get your first fire so we can all congratulate you....

    Last edited by webteam : Today at 04:53 PM. Reason: Name calling
    I appreciate the thought, webteam, but I would prefer for you to just put his posts in the explorer section where they belong - if you feel the need to intervene. Getting called an idiot by a small time fire fan doesn't bother me a bit.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 10-23-2007 at 10:55 PM.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Old-school traditional 30's vs new more-advanced, lighter 45's
    200 years of tradition unhampered by progress.
    We use the new state of the art 30 minute cylinders that are lighter and have a small size than the new 45's. Don't even have to perform a reduced profile to get between the studs. 45's just give you more time to get in deeper and get into trouble. It comes down to air management. No matter what you use (ever use the old steel bottles dog?) they all work the same. You have to know the SCBA's limitations and your own. I'll put money down I can use a pack that is 20 years old (Scott IIa) and do the same job I am today with my Scott 50.

  11. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post
    We use the new state of the art 30 minute cylinders that are lighter and have a small size than the new 45's. Don't even have to perform a reduced profile to get between the studs. 45's just give you more time to get in deeper and get into trouble. It comes down to air management. No matter what you use (ever use the old steel bottles dog?) they all work the same. You have to know the SCBA's limitations and your own. I'll put money down I can use a pack that is 20 years old (Scott IIa) and do the same job I am today with my Scott 50.
    In my case, that 1/2 inch difference in diameter isn't going to make the difference between doing a reduced profile or not. Hell, I barely fit through with out any turnout gear and SCBA. The biggest benefit to the larger bottle is you get more working time, more time after 25%, and less tiem wasted getting in and out. The 45 minute and 60 minute bottles are safer and more efficient.

  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    In my case, that 1/2 inch difference in diameter isn't going to make the difference between doing a reduced profile or not. Hell, I barely fit through with out any turnout gear and SCBA. The biggest benefit to the larger bottle is you get more working time, more time after 25%, and less tiem wasted getting in and out. The 45 minute and 60 minute bottles are safer and more efficient.
    How are they safer....if one knows they have more time to get out after their low air alarm sounds...could this not lead to people staying longer due to the knowledge that they have a greater cushion?

    What if the increased weight and fewer opportunities for rehab make personel unavaiable for redeployment back into the fire building thus requiring more alarms transmitted to provide for the personell?

    This was and continues to be an issue with us since the switch to 45 min cylinders. Increasing the weight and slight increase duty time does result in a need for more personell and increased rotation.

    Just because you say they are safer or more efficent doesn't make it so.

    FTM-PTB

  13. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    In my case, that 1/2 inch difference in diameter isn't going to make the difference between doing a reduced profile or not. Hell, I barely fit through with out any turnout gear and SCBA. The biggest benefit to the larger bottle is you get more working time, more time after 25%, and less tiem wasted getting in and out. The 45 minute and 60 minute bottles are safer and more efficient.
    What good is more working time if you are wiped out after the first ten minutes of heavy labor?

    I agree with FFFRED. I did exactly what he said last nite. My company (Rescue Engine (think Squad)) uses 45s. Everyone else uses 30s. We were second due and had back-up. We were in the fire apartment even after the first due engine and ladder worked down their first bottles, rehabbed and came back in. It kind of messed up the company rotations into the structure. Bad on my part yup. (It was even worst when we had 60s. We went down in size to be more productive, the 60s were just to dang big to get into small spaces.)

    Proper training on air management is the key no matter what size you use. A 45 or 60 just gives you more time to get in real deep.

  14. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    In my case, that 1/2 inch difference in diameter isn't going to make the difference between doing a reduced profile or not. Hell, I barely fit through with out any turnout gear and SCBA. The biggest benefit to the larger bottle is you get more working time, more time after 25%, and less tiem wasted getting in and out. The 45 minute and 60 minute bottles are safer and more efficient.
    Whoa... there.

    What kills more firefighters? Asphyxia or heart attacks?

    The bottles themselves are safe no matter how big, so I don't get your point.

    However, a firefighter performing 30 minutes of work versus 60 minutes of work with no break cannot be safer knowing what we know about LODD.

    Look, you want 45 or 60 minute bottles, go for it. But don't claim they are "safer".

    You have no evidence at all on that point.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  15. #1035
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    I doubt Trots has ever worn a 1 hour bottle in training, let alone an incident.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    I doubt Trots has ever worn a 1 hour bottle in training, let alone an incident.
    You are right, we use 45 minute bottles.

    The key is strict enforcement. When the alarm goes off you get out, no questions asked. In the words of a highly wise man 'Get er Done!"

    To show that one is more efficient take a fire fighting time of 1 hour 30 minutes. That will result in 2 ea 45 minute bottles, 3 ea 30 minute bottles. You lose 25% right off the top taking you too 34 minutes and 23 minutes. which means you have 11 minutes and 7 minutes to get out. The 45 minute bottle gives you an extra 4 minutes to exit. And, during the 1.5 hours in question, you get 68 minutes and 69 minutes of useful time. Seems like a wash right. Wrong. With that useful time you have consider the amount of time used to get into the fire (where the work is) if that is 5 minutes then with the 45 minute bottles you have two trip or 10 minutes and the 30 minute bottles will use up 15 minutes.

    So it isn't me saying it is safer and more efficient, the numbers say it is so.

  17. #1037
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    You are right, we use 45 minute bottles.

    The key is strict enforcement. When the alarm goes off you get out, no questions asked. In the words of a highly wise man 'Get er Done!"
    Quoting Larry the Cable Guy proves your intelligence level...

    To show that one is more efficient take a fire fighting time of 1 hour 30 minutes. That will result in 2 ea 45 minute bottles, 3 ea 30 minute bottles. You lose 25% right off the top taking you too 34 minutes and 23 minutes. which means you have 11 minutes and 7 minutes to get out. The 45 minute bottle gives you an extra 4 minutes to exit. And, during the 1.5 hours in question, you get 68 minutes and 69 minutes of useful time. Seems like a wash right. Wrong. With that useful time you have consider the amount of time used to get into the fire (where the work is) if that is 5 minutes then with the 45 minute bottles you have two trip or 10 minutes and the 30 minute bottles will use up 15 minutes.

    So it isn't me saying it is safer and more efficient, the numbers say it is so.
    Where do you come up with this crock of crap?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  18. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    You are right, we use 45 minute bottles.

    The key is strict enforcement. When the alarm goes off you get out, no questions asked. In the words of a highly wise man 'Get er Done!"

    To show that one is more efficient take a fire fighting time of 1 hour 30 minutes. That will result in 2 ea 45 minute bottles, 3 ea 30 minute bottles. You lose 25% right off the top taking you too 34 minutes and 23 minutes. which means you have 11 minutes and 7 minutes to get out. The 45 minute bottle gives you an extra 4 minutes to exit. And, during the 1.5 hours in question, you get 68 minutes and 69 minutes of useful time. Seems like a wash right. Wrong. With that useful time you have consider the amount of time used to get into the fire (where the work is) if that is 5 minutes then with the 45 minute bottles you have two trip or 10 minutes and the 30 minute bottles will use up 15 minutes.

    So it isn't me saying it is safer and more efficient, the numbers say it is so.
    If we used computers and calculators to fight fires you'd be right.

    We don't, we use firefighters. They need breaks, they need to come out and re-orient...

    They also don't need to keel over from a heart attack.

    You sound like someone who never fought a fire...what the heck man?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  19. #1039
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Quoting Larry the Cable Guy proves your intelligence level...



    Where do you come up with this crock of crap?
    It's called Science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    If we used computers and calculators to fight fires you'd be right.

    We don't, we use firefighters. They need breaks, they need to come out and re-orient...

    They also don't need to keel over from a heart attack.

    You sound like someone who never fought a fire...what the heck man?
    That is correct as well, I forgot that part. Working 30 minutes is not a big deal. If you can't go 30 minutes without needing a break you might need to consider a career change. Realize, you only get 30 minutes of working time on a 45 minute bottle. And in our case we go in and come out in teams of two. So the amount of working time is dictated by the FF who uses the most air.

    And actually, I was stationed outside a window one night just knocking down fire when it would flare up inside this room. I was able to go over 2 hours because we use ISI packs and I could easily go onto air and off of air.

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