Charleston Listens to Preliminary Panel Recommendations

[SPFDRum]

BTW, people were on-scene in shorts & flip flops long before there were brothers trapped or missing. There were reportedly many self deployments at this fire and this must be discouraged and avoided through effective established procedure.

I'm tossing the BS flag- it was about 20 minutes from on-scene to the first mayday. A short time frame for people coming from home in shorts and flip flops to arrive.

[KnightnPBIArmor]

I'm tossing the BS flag- it was about 20 minutes from on-scene to the first mayday. A short time frame for people coming from home in shorts and flip flops to arrive.

Thank you, SP, you beat me to it...

[Batt18]

I'm tossing the BS flag- it was about 20 minutes from on-scene to the first mayday. A short time frame for people coming from home in shorts and flip flops to arrive.

Where did I ever suggest they were responding from their homes?! They weren't.

[Bones42]

At about 7:41 p.m., the showroom and its contents explode into flames.
Nearing the front door, Beasley steals a backward glance as tendrils of fire leap from one couch to the next in succession. Pop! Pop! Pop! A tidal wave of flame roars through the room and belches from the front windows.
Bilton and Beasley tumble from the store into the parking lot. Steam pours from Beasley's singed gear as he looks around. The firefighter they were trying to save is gone, lost somewhere in the inferno.
'I want everybody out of the building!' Thomas shouts again. 'We still can't find the captain of 15!'

Firefighters keep arriving, parking wherever they can. They scurry about, using whatever hose they can get their hands on to spray water on the fire.
Some even try to hold back flames with small, red hoses normally reserved for tiny trash fires.

Some firefighters wander close to the flames with no helmets, air packs, or protective gear. Off-duty men in shorts and sandals cart hoses. Voices step all over one another on the radio.

[nuthead]

This is my first post here. As such, I'm coming into this "discussion" without any bias toward any of the posters here.

To start with, I live about 2.5 hours away from Charleston. I know many of the fireman in that area and knew one of the great guys that lost his life. That being said, it entitles me to precisely nothing. Sure, I've probably heard more details and gossip about what went on, but I've learned never to put a whole lot of value in "he said/she said". I can also say that after 20+ years in the fire service, the media _NEVER_ get it completely right. You might also expect that a lot of what gets reported is a lot of ***-covering from some people.

We have 9 dead firemen - obviously, something screwed up somewhere. Who, what, when and where will get sorted out in time. I see another tragedy as a result of that fire. Brothers (and sisters) arguing about what happened, who must have done what, and "oh they shoulda, coulda". I'm all for learning from the mistakes that occurred in Charleston, but let's use some sense about it. There's a lot we don't know - and don't know means just that. Does anyone here think those (or any) fallen heros would want this arguing and personal jabs between brothers? I don't.

I'm usually a very opinionated person and can make points about most of what everyone here has said, but I'm also (at times) long-winded, so I think I'll shut up now.

Oh yeah....forgive me if I come across as "preaching", that is not my intent.

[SPFDRum]

Firefighters keep arriving, parking wherever they can. They scurry about, using whatever hose they can get their hands on to spray water on the fire.
Some even try to hold back flames with small, red hoses normally reserved for tiny trash fires.

Bones, you can highlight all the media crap you want, but bottom line-there where not the numbers there prior to the mayday as Batt18 is alluding to.
Batt18, maybe where you are at you have a bunch of wackers, but here, you couldn't get most to walk across the street off duty for a dumpster fire...(and that is what it was dispatched as) So, again I ask, how do you know they all got there prior too the mayday?

[Bones42]

SPFDRum, I included the time in the post to show when they were arriving at the scene. The intial call was around 7:08pm if I remember correctly from the posted article.

I agree, these guys were not there initially and did respond from off duty locations.

[Batt18]

Batt18, maybe where you are at you have a bunch of wackers, but here, you couldn't get most to walk across the street off duty for a dumpster fire...(and that is what it was dispatched as)

No, that's incorrect information .. The dispatch of the first assignment was to a 'possible structure fire'.

[Nine3Probie]

Not going to get involved...other than to mention Batt18 is correct in one point. It was dispatched as a possible structure at 1909 hrs. I thought it was dispatched as dumpster too, until I just went back and listened to broadcast. Here's the audio link...

http://www.charleston.net/audioclips/16/

[devildog4]

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[swarmy]

DevilDick- You're still here?!!! I'd figure you'd be busy assisting NIOSH with their report. Facts is... you don't have all the facts. You don't have CFD's SOPs. You didn't interview any firefighters who were there. You didn't read the incident report. And you, by no means, don't have ANY creditbility.

We're all willing to admit that mistakes were made, but most of us are waiting for some official information from someone who has more inclusive knowledge before we comment. You're very quick to pass judgement on our lost brothers with very little knowledge of the events. If you hope to get any level of respect from the brothers on this forum, I suggest you SHUT THE HELL UP!!!

GO AWAY YOU TROLL!!!

[devildog4]

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[devildog4]

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[devildog4]

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[Rescue101]

I'm usually amused by a left coaster telling an East coaster how to fight fire.Aren't you the same guys that after moving to the left coast(which happened LONG after most East coast depts were established)ALLOWED people to build CEDAR SHAKED buildings amid "gas brush"in KNOWN fire canyon chimneys and then you want to tell us how to run a fire?Don't take this the wrong way but there have been FF's killed in CA by command screwups too so I think you're still a ways from a foolproof command structure. Were there errors made in Charleston? I'm sure there were some.Many of us make errors everyday but are fortunate enough no-one gets hurt.The smarter of us learn from the tragedies of others so we don't fall into the same trap.I wasn't in Charleston,I don't know specfically what happened.I DO,however,KNOW this.9 brothers aren't coming home.The Chief is rerunning every part of that fire,over and over in his head every moment he is concious.He's hurting,his officers and his dept are hurting.In time,causal factors will be made known.Instead of beating up this Dept EVERY ONE of us should be ready to take the findings from this fire and apply the causal element factors to OUR own depts to prevent this from happening again.As Fred and Harve have alluded,some elements of our operations are common,some are not.And some,despite everyones best intentions,won't ever be.As a Chief,I know how it feels to have a member injured.I cannot imagine the pain of ever losing ONE much less nine. I'm not going to be part of the "stoning"crowd,but I WILL take the lessons learned and apply them in the right place. T.C.

[devildog4]

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[Bones42]

Not for nothing, but you won't hear most of this on our radios either if you ever listened to one of our calls. Reason being, there is no need, in our way of operating, for most of this to be said on the radio.

Heard no proper size-up.
- Can't argue that one, however, we have many places we respond to often that size up is not given since everyone knows the location well.

Heard no command being established.
- Command is first officer on scene, no need to announce who it is as we don't care, just that someone answers when we call Command on the radio.

Heard no use of clear text only.
- We can go back and forth over that. 10 codes work fine as does clear text.

Heard no command and tactical channel(s) assigned to fire.
- Again, no need. Channels are pre assigned and not made up at the scene.

Heard no order for primary or secondary vehicle staging.
- In our SOP's so no need to transmit again over the radio.

Heard nobody assigned a task/radio designator (interior, search & rescue, safety, ventilation, utilities, RIT, etc).
- Again, in SOP's so you won't hear any of that.

Heard no primary or secondary search clear signal given.
- That one you will commonly hear.

Heard no repeating of or acknowledgement of tasks/assignments given.
- Repeats won't be heard. Acknowledgement will be.

Heard no orders for every incoming units to standby/position at a hydrant or orders for everyone to lay their own water supply lines.
- Again, SOP's so you won't hear it.

Heard no calm, confident, composed and professional voice from the Chief on scene.
- No comment.

Heard no order to stop all operations and conduct an accountability check after first mayday call.
- Won't hear us stop everything while accountability is taken either. Firefighting tasks will continue during the process.

Heard no accountability count actually being taken or results conveyed to the Chief.
- Count will be given to Safety Officer who will verbally give to Chief.

Heard nothing from dispatch to units in field after Chief advised them by phone of emergency signal activation and asked them to inquire who activated it.
- Our dispatch is not involved with on scene radio transmissions.

------------------------------------------
Now, having replied to what you did not hear...is my Department in the wrong? Our SOP's cover most of the items you listed without adding radio traffic, but without you knowing that, we appear as "faulted" as Charleston.

I believe, that is exactly FFFred and others' points.

[KnightnPBIArmor]

You can't do that when you train (and use) "Hey Bubba, ya'll seen Vern?" on a fire.

My comments are unpopular and by some accounts, insensitive. My purpose is to open eyes (and brains) to modern acceptable standards that we all should be using in this day and age. Feel free to disagree.

Those that think I am attacking our fallen Brothers who gave their lives are foolishly mistaken and in all reality are probably incapable of understanding what it is I am trying to convey.

When you use stereotypes like your "Bubba" crack you most certainly come across as insensitive, you do come across as attacking the fallen brothers, and before you open anyone else's eyes or brain you need to pull the gourd that contains your own out of your smug, condescending backside...Hottrotter II

[Batt18]

Now, having replied to what you did not hear...is my Department in the wrong? Our SOP's cover most of the items you listed without adding radio traffic, but without you knowing that, we appear as "faulted" as Charleston.

I believe, that is exactly FFFred and others' points.

Bones makes some good points although I would question one or two of them as written. I do think it is inappropriate and quite wrong to dissect the radio traffic this way. This would be for the investigators to comment on. What I would say is this .. there are much clearer conclusions and lessons to be drawn at this early stage that are relevant in such a way as to prompt us all to look at our SOPs and fire scene operations .. what situations might occur that would put our firefighters at such a distinct disadvantage?; and can our documented procedures and systems of work, in their current form, cope with such catastrophic failings? Chief Thomas took control within five minutes of the first alarm assignment arriving on-scene but by that time the task of recovering the spiraling situation was clearly beyond him (or anyone). However, we must ask what immediate actions would/could/should YOU take under those circumstances to protect YOUR firefighters? Further, what aspects; procedures or equipment can be improved in our own situation (if any) to prevent such system failures in the first place? We can do this based on the evidence available. We are not hurling stones at anyone by doing so. We are protecting our own.

[ChicagoFF]

Not for nothing, but you won't hear most of this on our radios either if you ever listened to one of our calls. Reason being, there is no need, in our way of operating, for most of this to be said on the radio.

Heard no proper size-up.
- Can't argue that one, however, we have many places we respond to often that size up is not given since everyone knows the location well.

Heard no command being established.
- Command is first officer on scene, no need to announce who it is as we don't care, just that someone answers when we call Command on the radio.

Heard no use of clear text only.
- We can go back and forth over that. 10 codes work fine as does clear text.

Heard no command and tactical channel(s) assigned to fire.
- Again, no need. Channels are pre assigned and not made up at the scene.

Heard no order for primary or secondary vehicle staging.
- In our SOP's so no need to transmit again over the radio.

Heard nobody assigned a task/radio designator (interior, search & rescue, safety, ventilation, utilities, RIT, etc).
- Again, in SOP's so you won't hear any of that.

Heard no primary or secondary search clear signal given.
- That one you will commonly hear.

Heard no repeating of or acknowledgement of tasks/assignments given.
- Repeats won't be heard. Acknowledgement will be.

Heard no orders for every incoming units to standby/position at a hydrant or orders for everyone to lay their own water supply lines.
- Again, SOP's so you won't hear it.

Heard no calm, confident, composed and professional voice from the Chief on scene.
- No comment.

Heard no order to stop all operations and conduct an accountability check after first mayday call.
- Won't hear us stop everything while accountability is taken either. Firefighting tasks will continue during the process.

Heard no accountability count actually being taken or results conveyed to the Chief.
- Count will be given to Safety Officer who will verbally give to Chief.

Heard nothing from dispatch to units in field after Chief advised them by phone of emergency signal activation and asked them to inquire who activated it.
- Our dispatch is not involved with on scene radio transmissions.

------------------------------------------
Now, having replied to what you did not hear...is my Department in the wrong? Our SOP's cover most of the items you listed without adding radio traffic, but without you knowing that, we appear as "faulted" as Charleston.

I believe, that is exactly FFFred and others' points.

You beat me to the punch. Just because your (devildog4) department makes it all up as you go does not mean that is the right way. SOP's here determine what everyone will be doing and where they go. It is so small minded of you to assume that everyone should operate the way you do at your department. Chicago had a fire department before California was a state. Is there even a slight chance we might know how to do things? Maybe you should try to learn from experience instead of guessing how to do things. What city do you work for?