+ Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 43 First ... 345678916 ... Last
  1. #126
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,700

    Default

    Giving building type, construction and occupancy are a given standard. - and again, going to 1205 Ocean Avenue in my town does not require someone to say what it is as everyone in the department already knows this. Why type up the radio with already known information?

    Standard method is to say something like ”establishing sofa store command, Chief 1 will be sofa store IC” - Standard for you. Not standard in my area. We are dispatched to the sofa store, why does someone need to say establishing sofa store command? We already know that's where we are going and that command will be there.

    Clear text is the standard. - Standard for who? I'm sure you'll get some NY and possibly Chicago guys to tell you it's not standard there.

    I never heard anyone (if predesignated by SOP’s) stage at a hydrant or given distance away. - and you won't hear us saying we are staging at hydrant. That's our SOP for 2nd due engine. 1st due we know will be laying in.

    How does that work in the SOP’s? First engine does this, second engine does that and first truck does something else? If functions were automatic and in SOP, I never heard anybody say anything about completing those tasks, i.e. “primary search done – all clear” or “ventilation complete” or “utilities shut off”, etc. - Engine 1's assignments are set and known. They get water supply and stretch lines. Truck 1's assignments are set and known. Officer and 2 guys go interior and search. 1 guy goes to roof. 1 guy goes for OV assignment. Engine 2, Truck 2, Engine 3, and Truck 3 are also set and known what they are to be doing.

    Another basic thing not done. Saying “roger” or “10-4” does not mean that you clearly heard and understand what was said. The only way to do this is to repeat the order or task, so the sender knows the receiver got the correct intent of the message or order. - Again, tasks/duties/assignments/functions are preassigned. I don't need Engine 1/Truck 1 to acknowledge their function as they know it before they arrive.

    If it was in the SOP’s, then they weren’t followed. (and yet, we don't know their SOP's)

    You are kidding, right? We got a mayday call, emergency button radio activation, 7 or 8 attempts to contact that crew (with no answer) and firefighter safety/accountability is not the priority? First thing is that ALL OPERATIONS should stop until everyone is accounted for during a situation like that. - No, not kidding. Engine 1's crew will continue putting water on the fire, they aren't going to back out of the building for a roll call. They can respond with their status and continue their job. Truck 1 interior team can continue searching and radio their status. I'd rather guys that respond with their status to continue their job. That fire they are putting water on just may be the fire that is burning the lost members.

    Unless the Safety Officer (I never heard one) could be inside and outside and all over at once, this has to be done on the radio. I never heard any type of count being done, or results given to anyone, including dispatch. - Incident of this size, we'd have multiple safety officers who would monitor regular fire channel, but also use their own. Can't speak for Charleston as again, don't know their procedure for this.

    The Chief specifically asked dispatch to find out who activated the emergency button. I never heard dispatch follow-up on that. - Got ya. Missed that part. My bad.

    -------------------------------------

    Again, the way things are done in your area can be different than how things work in another area. You may not agree with how others operate, and others may not agree with your way. Doesn't make either one the "right" way or "wrong" way as they may work very well in their respective areas. I don't know Charleston's way, so I can't say it's good/bad/otherwise. Did things go in a way that I entirely agree with? No. But that MAY be their way of operating for a reason. And they MAY not have followed their standard way of operating. Without knowing their way, can't say.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  2. #127
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-29-2007 at 12:09 AM.

  3. #128
    Forum Member
    BKDRAFT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bay Area, California
    Posts
    1,146

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Oh No, did I just find out that elevated master streams were being used to direct water through holes in the roof while FF's were still inside? Please don't tell me that's true. Hmmm. One of the most basic first things they teach you not to do.
    Now was that before or after the collapse?

  4. #129
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    Now was that before or after the collapse?
    Good question, however, the collapse didn't kill them, they died from burns and smoke inhalation. I do know the front of the building was ventilated while the fire fighters were between the fire and the vent.

  5. #130
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Giving building type, construction and occupancy are a given standard. - and again, going to 1205 Ocean Avenue in my town does not require someone to say what it is as everyone in the department already knows this. Why type up the radio with already known information?

    Standard method is to say something like ”establishing sofa store command, Chief 1 will be sofa store IC” - Standard for you. Not standard in my area. We are dispatched to the sofa store, why does someone need to say establishing sofa store command? We already know that's where we are going and that command will be there.

    Clear text is the standard. - Standard for who? I'm sure you'll get some NY and possibly Chicago guys to tell you it's not standard there.
    ...
    In our Area we are supposed to state that the Incident Command is being established and the location. Something like this "E811 establishing incident command at E811" This let's everyone know where to find the IC and also esablishes a place for accountability. We use the two tag system for that.

    I'm from NY and we use plain text as the standard for communications. In fact, 10 codes are not supposed to be used at all, although a few still say 10-4. It's hard to train some people. We also have standard SOPs that talk to which channels are to be used for communications. The county frequency is used to communicate with dispatch. We then have fire ground 2,3,and 4 which are to be used for fire ground operations.

  6. #131
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Taken from the July/August International Firefighter magazine:

    Safety measures and common-sense procedures endorsed by fire departments across the country and regulating bodies like the NFPA are ignored by those in command in many South Carolina cities. In Charleston, their cowboy chief endorsed, embraced and made standard unsafe tactics that most in our profession recognize as outdated decades ago.

    The deaths of the Charleston Nine are a clarion call that we must stand up and demand change. The remarks of Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas should send a shiver down the spine of every fire fighter and their families. “Our fire fighting techniques are not going to change in the city of Charleston Fire Department,” he said on June 27.

    I wonder if this chief has any idea that it wasn’t just bad luck that killed these nine brave men who were doing their jobs, as they were trained and as command directed. Command in Charleston isn’t the only thing in need of change. NFPA 1710 is nowhere on the radar screen in the state. It’s the only state in the nation to have a short-sighted regulation that only requires two-in, one-out, instead of the national standard two-in, two-out. Fire fighters and fire inspectors aren’t required to be certified
    .
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ChicagoFF and Bones42: I understand what you are trying to say, but the tapes don't support that. If there was a SOP for all those things, then either the SOP doesn't work or nobody followed it.

    Heard no proper size-up.
    - Can't argue that one, however, we have many places we respond to often that size up is not given since everyone knows the location well. Giving building type, construction and occupancy are a given standard.

    Heard no command being established.
    - Command is first officer on scene, no need to announce who it is as we don't care, just that someone answers when we call Command on the radio. Standard method is to say something like ”establishing sofa store command, Chief 1 will be sofa store IC”

    Heard no use of clear text only.
    - We can go back and forth over that. 10 codes work fine as does clear text. Clear text is the standard.

    Heard no command and tactical channel(s) assigned to fire. - Again, no need. Channels are pre assigned and not made up at the scene. I am not sure and could be wrong, but heard dispatch and tone outs and move ups on the same channel as the fireground tactical channel.

    Heard no order for primary or secondary vehicle staging.
    - In our SOP's so no need to transmit again over the radio. I never heard anyone (if predesignated by SOP’s) stage at a hydrant or given distance away.

    Heard nobody assigned a task/radio designator (interior, search & rescue, safety, ventilation, utilities, RIT, etc).
    Again, in SOP's so you won't hear any of that. How does that work in the SOP’s? First engine does this, second engine does that and first truck does something else? If functions were automatic and in SOP, I never heard anybody say anything about completing those tasks, i.e. “primary search done – all clear” or “ventilation complete” or “utilities shut off”, etc.

    Heard no primary or secondary search clear signal given.
    - That one you will commonly hear. Didn’t hear it this time. Rescue is the number one priority. Never heard anything on the tape until dispatch advised man trapped inside.

    Heard no repeating of or acknowledgement of tasks/assignments given. - Repeats won't be heard. Acknowledgement will be. Another basic thing not done. Saying “roger” or “10-4” does not mean that you clearly heard and understand what was said. The only way to do this is to repeat the order or task, so the sender knows the receiver got the correct intent of the message or order.

    Heard no orders for every incoming unit to standby/position at a hydrant or orders for everyone to lay their own water supply lines. - Again, SOP's so you won't hear it. If it was in the SOP’s, then they weren’t followed. Water supply was a critical problem. A single 2 ½” line to a ladder truck will not work. 1,000 gpm = minimum 3 or 4 lines. If additional preconnects are off that truck, even more water is needed. With smoke showing (for the first unit on scene) or working fire (all others) everybody can’t just go to the fire without their own supply line. I think it was the 3rd in engine that was the first to connect to a hydrant.

    Heard no order to stop all operations and conduct an accountability check after first mayday call.
    - Won't hear us stop everything while accountability is taken either. Firefighting tasks will continue during the process. You are kidding, right? We got a mayday call, emergency button radio activation, 7 or 8 attempts to contact that crew (with no answer) and firefighter safety/accountability is not the priority? First thing is that ALL OPERATIONS should stop until everyone is accounted for during a situation like that.

    Heard no accountability count actually being taken or results conveyed to the Chief. - Count will be given to Safety Officer who will verbally give to Chief. Unless the Safety Officer (I never heard one) could be inside and outside and all over at once, this has to be done on the radio. I never heard any type of count being done, or results given to anyone, including dispatch.

    Heard nothing from dispatch to units in field after Chief advised them by phone of emergency signal activation and asked them to inquire who activated it. - Our dispatch is not involved with on scene radio transmissions. The Chief specifically asked dispatch to find out who activated the emergency button. I never heard dispatch follow-up on that.

    Knight Dude: I believe you said to me;

    "How much more urine are you going to expel on their graves to get your point across you self serving mutt?"

    "I'm sure you can find something in those tragedies that doesn't meet the standards of your freakin left coast utopia"


    "and before you open anyone else's eyes or brain you need to pull the gourd that contains your own out of your smug, condescending backside"

    Personal opinions are one thing, attacks are another. Cool it, dude!
    When will it sink in, goofy. Just because you do something does not make it a "standard". What department are you on? Why don't you post your rube departments operations manual. I'm sure everyone would have a field day picking it apart. Nevermind. I'm sure you'll just keep posting articles and saying dumb things.

    Standard method is to say something like ”establishing sofa store command, Chief 1 will be sofa store IC”Where did this "standard" come from? The still chief will be in charge and of course he would be at the location of the fire. What kind of hillbillies need this spelled out on the radio?

    Clear text is the standard.
    Says who? And what is clear text? Everyone uses different terms for almost everything.

    I am not sure and could be wrong, but heard dispatch and tone outs and move ups on the same channel as the fireground tactical channel.Could it be that you heard a recording of a scanner picking up all channels?

    I never heard anyone (if predesignated by SOP’s) stage at a hydrant or given distance away.Nobody here stages at hydrants or gives distances. Why would we??? All engines get their own hydrants. If incoming rigs are going to be staged, an intersection is given.

    How does that work in the SOP’s? First engine does this, second engine does that and first truck does something else? If functions were automatic and in SOP, I never heard anybody say anything about completing those tasks, i.e. “primary search done – all clear” or “ventilation complete” or “utilities shut off”, etc.All initial tasks are known. With the exception of searches, you think every action on the fire ground needs to be reported over the radio? Yeah, good plan. Have everyone there stop working every 2 minutes to call the chief and tell him that they are doing their job.

    Another basic thing not done. Saying “roger” or “10-4” does not mean that you clearly heard and understand what was said. The only way to do this is to repeat the order or task, so the sender knows the receiver got the correct intent of the message or order.Another hillbilly request. You understand that guys might be busy but as professionals can be trusted to do their jobs without all your micky mouse bs, right? If I say "OK" or "got it" that means I got it.

    Basically, you are one of those ******bags that likes hearing himself sound important on a radio and, therefore, ties it up all the time with petty BS just to let the chief know you are there and "doin it" or gittin er done" or whatever hillbillies call it these days. You say you want all this to fit some mythological "national standard". I say it's because you are a suckhole that is overly impressed with himself and his job.

    Whatever. I'm sick of typing. Maybe I'll just start cutting and pasting like you. Post your operations manual and tell us all what department you are on.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 08-25-2007 at 10:56 AM.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  7. #132
    Forum Member
    KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Beautiful downtown Hortense, GA
    Posts
    745

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post

    Knight Dude: I believe you said to me;

    "How much more urine are you going to expel on their graves to get your point across you self serving mutt?"

    "I'm sure you can find something in those tragedies that doesn't meet the standards of your freakin left coast utopia"


    "and before you open anyone else's eyes or brain you need to pull the gourd that contains your own out of your smug, condescending backside"

    Personal opinions are one thing, attacks are another. Cool it, dude!
    No, YOU cool it: those are not attacks; that is me calling it like I see it. You are nothing more than an armchair fire chief that has an inflated opinion of his own knowledge and importance. You have tossed out the term "incompetent" and refereed to "Bubba and Vern" when describing this incident and this department as a whole and may I again remind you that includes the arnk and file survivors AND THOSE WHO DIED, and for that sir I consider you an insufferable ******bag. Don't like it? Report me to the webteam. There are issues with the Charleston Fire Department that definately need correcting but I will be damned if I'm going to sit idely by while you make your snide comments about "Bubba and Vern" in regards to my brothers and sisters in Charleston. And as others have said, who says all this bs you post is standard? Standard for your department maybe. Name the command? I'm dispatched to a fire at Walmart, and since we only have one in town I'm pretty sure everyone knows which one we're operating at I can counter all the other crap you posted, but ChicagoFF and Bones have already done so in pretty much the same answers I would give. And in closing let me make this perfectly clear: you need to STFU up on the self-righteous boasting about the moral superiority of your "department" ( if you ever on one and not some know-it-all whacker), let the brothers in SC grieve without you throwing stones at them, and get a friggin life. You think the way you do things is much better than the way they do things? Good for you for being so awesome. Hopefully death will never come calling on your department and prove to you that even the "perfect" plan devised by mortal human beings will never outwit the forces of nature.

    And again I'm not your frickin' "dude"

  8. #133
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default Note to devildog4

    Hey devildog4 Dude. I see you haven't been here very long. You will find out over time that there are no National Standards. That fires in NYC, Chicago, and other big cities are different, no two places will have the same kinds of fires. The USFA, NFPA, DHS, NIOSH, and OSHA have no idea about fire fighting and their reports, recommendations, standards etc. are useless organizations. You will also find that many of the people on these forums are far smarter and superior in knowledge than those in the afore mentioned organizations. They believe in doing the same things over and over and over, making the same mistakes. I believe it was Freud who used that as a definition.

    The sad part is that people in this professions keep getting killed on the job by making the same mistakes over and over. And in the case of CFD, the Union recognized the problems and wanted changes in 2002. Rusty stuck with his tradition and didn't change a thing. He lost 9 fire fighters and said he wouldn't change a thing (although he has since figured out that he does need to change and follow national standards).

    You will never get some of these guys to admit that plain text is the National Standard according to NIMS. Of course anyone who has gotten a federal grant is supposed to adopt and use NIMS, so I guess those departments that haven't done that need to send their money back.

    You aren't the first intelligent forward thinking person to come to these boards and try to change some opinions and methods. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, these gus would rather do it the same old way. Good Luck in your quest to make the fire service a better and safer place.

  9. #134
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Hey devildog4 Dude. I see you haven't been here very long. You will find out over time that there are no National Standards. That fires in NYC, Chicago, and other big cities are different, no two places will have the same kinds of fires. The USFA, NFPA, DHS, NIOSH, and OSHA have no idea about fire fighting and their reports, recommendations, standards etc. are useless organizations. You will also find that many of the people on these forums are far smarter and superior in knowledge than those in the afore mentioned organizations. They believe in doing the same things over and over and over, making the same mistakes. I believe it was Freud who used that as a definition.

    The sad part is that people in this professions keep getting killed on the job by making the same mistakes over and over. And in the case of CFD, the Union recognized the problems and wanted changes in 2002. Rusty stuck with his tradition and didn't change a thing. He lost 9 fire fighters and said he wouldn't change a thing (although he has since figured out that he does need to change and follow national standards).

    You will never get some of these guys to admit that plain text is the National Standard according to NIMS. Of course anyone who has gotten a federal grant is supposed to adopt and use NIMS, so I guess those departments that haven't done that need to send their money back.

    You aren't the first intelligent forward thinking person to come to these boards and try to change some opinions and methods. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, these gus would rather do it the same old way. Good Luck in your quest to make the fire service a better and safer place.
    Is this from the guy that said he never knew you were supposed to check the drop ceiling for fire.....
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  10. #135
    Forum Member
    KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Beautiful downtown Hortense, GA
    Posts
    745

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Is this from the guy that said he never knew you were supposed to check the drop ceiling for fire.....
    With similar blind, lockstep quoting of "standards", cutting and pasting, and smug cluelessness I'm starting to think devilmutt and Trotter are the same person...

  11. #136
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Is this from the guy that said he never knew you were supposed to check the drop ceiling for fire.....
    Yup, I never claimed to know it all. I just know that there are certain things we are supposed to do. Lacking any real industrial buildings we don't have many drp ceilings.

    What I do know is that the folks who write these reports, regulations, and standards know more about what needs to be done than the average FF. Many of these standards and regulations are written for a reason, to prevent LODD.

  12. #137
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor View Post
    With similar blind, lockstep quoting of "standards", cutting and pasting, and smug cluelessness I'm starting to think devilmutt and Trotter are the same person...
    Sorry to disappoint you, but it appears there is more than one person who has the eduction, has done the reading, and knows what is supposed to happen. Somehow the knowledge seems to get lost between the classroom and the field. Such looks to be the case in the CFD.

  13. #138
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,700

    Default

    You will never get some of these guys to admit that plain text is the National Standard according to NIMS. Of course anyone who has gotten a federal grant is supposed to adopt and use NIMS, so I guess those departments that haven't done that need to send their money back.
    HotTrotter, you may want to read your NIMS guidelines a bit more in detail. Clear Text (or plain english codes ) are not mandatory. They are recommended for operations involving multiple agencies.

    But you know that already.


    The USFA, NFPA, DHS, NIOSH, and OSHA have no idea about fire fighting and their reports, recommendations, standards etc. are useless organizations. You will also find that many of the people on these forums are far smarter and superior in knowledge than those in the afore mentioned organizations.
    Just curious, but do you honestly believe all the people in those organizations are smarter and superior in knowledge than you? In all those organizations, which one knows YOUR department the best?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #139
    Banned

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    HotTrotter, you may want to read your NIMS guidelines a bit more in detail. Clear Text (or plain english codes ) are not mandatory. They are recommended for operations involving multiple agencies.

    But you know that already.


    Just curious, but do you honestly believe all the people in those organizations are smarter and superior in knowledge than you? In all those organizations, which one knows YOUR department the best?
    Ahh it could be that they became recommended, I believe at one time they were supposed to be mandatory.

    I do know that those organizations have looked at more LODDs and investigated more near misses than we have. That is how they come up with the guidelines they have.

  15. #140
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    What I do know is that the folks who write these reports, regulations, and standards know more about what needs to be done than the average FF.
    I would like to see these "fire" experts fire ground experience listed. I seriously doubt that it would come anywhere near to the firefighting time and knowledge of the combined experience of the Chicago Fire Department chiefs. Our department has investigated 564 of our own line of duty deaths. Believe me, they have some knowledge of the process.

    My point in bringing up your short comings when it comes to fireground operations was to point out the obvious - you should learn the basics of your job before you come on here and climb on a soap box to preach to us about how things should be done. Maybe if people thought you had any real experience they would be more willing to tolerate your wildly delusional views about how things should be. Quoting ifsta, nfpa, nims, or any of the other geniuses won't win you much credibility....
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 08-25-2007 at 05:43 PM.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  16. #141
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    644

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post

    Heard no order to stop all operations and conduct an accountability check after first mayday call.
    - Won't hear us stop everything while accountability is taken either. Firefighting tasks will continue during the process. You are kidding, right? We got a mayday call, emergency button radio activation, 7 or 8 attempts to contact that crew (with no answer) and firefighter safety/accountability is not the priority? First thing is that ALL OPERATIONS should stop until everyone is accounted for during a situation like that.
    The last thing you want to do is STOP all operations while accountability is taken. You still want firefighters putting the wet stuff on the red stuff. What chance do missing firefighters have if you stop fighting the fire. I was always taught if you put the fire out you have solved most of the problem.

    We are trained not to stop operations during a mayday. Your actions may make the difference, finishing ventilation, put the fire out, finish your primary. That is when you send in your RIT and your "on deck" crews to manage the mayday. Yours is the textbook answer for the situation. If you stop operations then you have already written off the lost firefighters.

    I have never had a problem missing an ACT check as company officer, that's my job to answer the radio.

    Maybe when you more experience you'll learn the difference between the book and reality.

  17. #142
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Devildog...

    If you are a Marine...thanks for your service to our Country.

    That being said...if you are a solider you should probably stick to killing the enemy and leave the firefighting to the profesionals...God help our troops if they are depending on a guy like you to put out their fires.

    You've never heard of pre-assigned positions and duties???....well you sir haven't looked outside that Keystone Cop FD of yours recently.

    Here is some light reading.

    FDNY procedures

    The concept and ideas you are championing has been archaic thinking around here for almost a century!

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-26-2007 at 10:50 AM.

  18. #143
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-29-2007 at 12:05 AM.

  19. #144
    the 4-1-4
    Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,784

    Default


    We are trained not to stop operations during a mayday. Your actions may make the difference, finishing ventilation, put the fire out, finish your primary. That is when you send in your RIT and your "on deck" crews to manage the mayday. Yours is the textbook answer for the situation. If you stop operations then you have already written off the lost firefighters.

    That's the way I have always been taught, and that is how we teach it, and that is how it's done here. Hold in place and let RIT handle their business. You can also conduct a PAR while you're still doing your thing. A good company officer knows where his guys are anyhow, whether it be by radio, voice, or visual contact.
    The only chance a guy has who calls a mayday, is if the fire is still fought while your RIT perform.

  20. #145
    Forum Member
    KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Beautiful downtown Hortense, GA
    Posts
    745

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BTW Knight Dude, I never offered that I had an “inflated opinion of my own knowledge and importance” or “self-righteous boasting about the moral superiority of my department”. Myself, my engine crew and my dept have all made mistakes.

    We have national standards dude. Get over it. Your dept may or may not adapt them, but they are there for a reason. They save lives. They take you out of the stone age and put you in 2007.
    I will refresh your memory on your orginal post Devil******;

    "For those of you who have not heard these tapes here is the web link to listen to them. Remember, we are in a dangerous profession and listening to these audios, I AM PROUD TO BE A FIREFIGHTER IN THIS GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA which takes the incident command sysytem very seriously!

    As you listen you will hear this incident go into total chaos with no intial set up of IC, RIC, Accountablity, Interior Ops, Staging, etc, etc (kinda reminds me of Hanckinsack NJ Incident a few years back). '

    Sorry, but that is self-righteous boasting. And just for your info junior we don't have to adapt national standards, we are already practicing them, and I never said we didn't, you merely assumed because I take issue with your muttish attitude that we don't...as a matter of fact my career department was the lead fire and EMS agency for the G8 Conference on Sea Island, GA in 2004. I was an acting Battalion Chief for that event, and worked with GMAG units from all over the state as well as pretty much every federal law enforcement agency you can think of including the FBI and Secret Service. I worked as an Engine Boss at the Sweat Farm Rd/Big Turnaround Fire in the Okefenokee Swamp from April of this year until June, and we certainly used the ICS working with over 200 different fire departments from all over Georgia , Forestry units from at least 20 states, National Forest Service and private wildland contractors. So don't lecture me on ICS and national standards and how they work. And I'm still not your frickin dude..I would only let someone I liked call me that; you're nothing more than a West caost knock-off of Hot trotter.

  21. #146
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    434

    Default

    deleted by author
    Last edited by devildog4; 08-29-2007 at 12:05 AM.

  22. #147
    Forum Member
    BKDRAFT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bay Area, California
    Posts
    1,146

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Devildog...

    If you are a Marine...thanks for your service to our Country.

    That being said...if you are a solider you should probably stick to killing the enemy and leave the firefighting to the profesionals...God help our troops if they are depending on a guy like you to put out their fires.

    You've never heard of pre-assigned positions and duties???....well you sir haven't looked outside that Keystone Cop FD of yours recently.

    Here is some light reading.

    FDNY procedures

    The concept and ideas you are championing has been archaic thinking around here for almost a century!

    FTM-PTB
    Do you have anything else you could post up for me? I would appreciate it. Thanks.

  23. #148
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    “The investigation is a vital part of the process that allows us to learn from each negative experience, then identify and implement the necessary corrective actions to ensure that the experience isn’t repeated,” wrote Routley in a November 2005 article titled Detective Story.

    Not long after the (Sofa Superstore) fire, the media, former firefighters and safety experts began pointing to, what appeared to be, a lapse in command during the fire and a lack of proper protective equipment for some of the firefighters at the scene.

    The whispers irritated Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas and, when asked the rhetorical question, “If you had the chance to do it over, would you have done anything different?” Thomas emphatically said no.

    Two years before the fatal Charleston fire, in an eerily similar entry in his Detective Story article, Routley discussed the mindset behind that very statement.

    “The investigation of a line-of-duty death or a serious firefighter injury is among the most important and difficult tasks that any fire chief will ever have to face.”

    “The reflex reaction to such questions is often, “We did everything by the book. If we had it all to do over again, we wouldn’t do it any differently.” This response is comforting and possibly reassuring to those involved, but it’s also a denial of the very obvious fact that something must have gone seriously wrong or we wouldn’t have anything to talk about. This response also establishes a defensive posture for every subsequent question, conversation or revelation about what happened.

    “We should be saying, “We’re not sure what went wrong at this point, but we are going to conduct a very thorough investigation and make every effort to ensure it doesn’t happen again.” From the very beginning the emphasis has to be placed on determining what went wrong, what we can learn from the experience and how we can implement those lessons to prevent future occurrences. This process is seldom simple or easy, and it can be extremely painful, but it’s also essential to keep firefighters from being killed or injured in the future for the same reasons.

    “On the opposite side of the equation, in many cases there’s a reluctance to examine circumstances too closely in case they show that the victim was in some way negligent or contributed to the situation … it would be foolish and professionally negligent to ignore facts and fail to learn the lessons from any unfortunate situation. The protective reflex also could apply to shielding other individuals or the fire department itself from critical examination.”

    The lessons, even if they are embarrassing, are much too valuable to be hidden from view,” writes Routley about his investigative mission. “We owe it to our profession to let others learn from our experiences. The reports should be studied and their lessons should be implemented by every fire department.”

    Here are the panel’s recommendations:

    STAFFING: Create three new positions: a safety officer, an assistant to the chief and a public information officer. Have two emergency dispatchers on duty at all times. Staff all fire trucks with at least three firefighters and work toward a minimum of four firefighters per truck.

    COMMAND AND ACCOUNTABILITY: Follow national standards and use a formal command structure for managing all incidents. Have a specific officer monitor safety at fires. Quickly put in place a system for keeping track of all city workers at fire scenes.

    SAFETY: Insist firefighters wear full protective gear, use air masks and buckle seatbelts while riding in trucks. Follow federal standards requiring that two firefighters be stationed outside a burning building for every two who enter. Reinforce safety procedures for off-duty firefighters who respond to emergencies.

    TRAINING: Train all officers in incident-command procedures and ensure that all commanders are schooled in safety management. Raise minimum training standards for all new recruits.

    COMMUNICATIONS: Increase the number of fire crews and commanders automatically sent to structure fires. Have one engine crew at fire scenes on standby to rescue trapped or injured firefighters. Eliminate use of numbered codes in radio transmission in favor of plain language all can understand.

    EQUIPMENT: Use larger hose lines to supply trucks and firefighters with more water to douse blazes. Significantly reduce the use of small “booster” lines that have served as the primary hoses for attacking many fires.
    http://thegaggle.wordpress.com/2007/...ordon-routley/

  24. #149
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Knight Dude! You're back!

    Ya know, ya missed my point AGAIN! My first point was that the ICS system is taken very seriously here on the Westcoast. Invented here. Every dept must know and practice it. I am so glad to hear that YOUR dept practices it (and national standards). Too bad CFD does not.
    Created by a bunch of suburban Chiefs who had and problem of poorly disiplined companies and idiot company officers who came from all over your state to fight grass and tree fires. That is comendable, they created order where you had some problems. Good for you.

    That however doesn't mean your system will work everywhere or should be wholesale adopted by anyone who you think is beneath you. I've yet to see any rational thought or reasoning as to why this ICS would have prevented any deaths as you so claim.

    With your extensive wildland experience, you more than others should be all too familiar with the ICS system and it's importance. After you listened to the tape, you, more than others, should have heard and agree with "as you listen you will hear this incident go into total chaos with no intial set up of IC, RIC, Accountablity, Interior Ops, Staging, etc, etc" . If I am wrong, I will publicly apologize.
    I listened and heard it go into total chaos with no use of our procedures and policies either...does that mean they should blindly and without reservation completely adopt our system or should they adopt your made-up command system designed for grass fires? At least ours was developed over 140+ years of profesional firefighting (as I'm sure Chicagos system would also work as well) and has been proven in the heaviest fire duty this country has ever seen to date.

    If your argument is that they had little to no procedures or command system in place...then any command system will do, no?

    Their is nothing to say that your ideal world of ICS would have done anything for them, anymore than had they adopted my depts procedures things would have been different...you are making many assumptions on little factual information.

    Did you ever hear the word command or IC, or just Chief? It is a function, not a rank.
    Merely semantics.
    Did you ever hear the word RIC or RIT? Hear anything about a crew staging at the door ready to go?
    Do you know for sure that none of this was done or another similar measure wasn't taken? I haven't seen an offical report that states such...have you?
    Did you ever hear the word vent or ventilation? Hear (if it was pre-assigned) that it was done?
    Just like Chicago mentioned...around here we don't typically tell the chief every time we do our jobs...they assume the venting is being accomplished, and the 1st Due companies can tell when it is and isn't being done in the normal manner. We don't clutter the air with nonsense just to hear ourselves talk or sound important, if we incounter unexpected obstacles then and only they do we tell the Chief what the problem or delay is...perhaps that is what they were doing...I don't know because it isn't in a report and neither you nor anyone else has citied their Dept procedures as of yet.

    Did you ever hear interior group or sector? I heard crews by engine number.
    That is more or less what you will hear around here as well...if the 16th Battalion wants to speak to the officer of Engine Co. 71...he will state.."Battalion 1-6 to Engine 7-1." If he wants to speak to the roof man of Ladder 22 he will state..."Battalion 1-6 to 2-2 Roof." I don't know why you must insist on creating names and titles for companies that already have names and titles. Makes no sense to us...and further demonstrates your "national standard"....isn't national at all.

    You posted "And as others have said, who says all this bs you post is standard? Standard for your department maybe". OK, please tell me one thing that I mentioned as a standard was/is not a NFPA standard or an accepted ICS practice?
    Some of us have no idea and really could care less what NFPA, Firescope, ICS, Alan B. or what any other suburban nonsense you care to cite has to say about what is and isn't a "standard". The point is that this "standard" is in name only and for my department we do and buy what we want...if it happens to be NFPA compliant or whatever great...but that isn't our main concern.

    Fact are facts. The Command system was a huge problem at this fire. CFD guys tell you so. Expert panel tells you. IAFF tells you. I am telling you.
    I haven't seen any comprehensive report from anyone or any of the above.(the list of recomendations doesn't allow for your type of assumptions and statements) and until then or until their offical policy can be cited here...this discussion is not based on any relevant facts...just conjecture.

    As has been said before...perhaps there are some issues that need to be addressed in Charleston...but until the report comes out or you can cite dept procedures the discussion is without merit.

    I really don't like to keep posting on this topic, but as long as you continue to defend an archaic, antiquated, behind-the-times, unsafe system that may have contributed to this tragic loss, I will continue to try and educate you and others.
    If anyone is behind the times it is you. You've never heard of pre-assigned duties and thus I imagine that means you approach a fire like a pick-up football game and hand out assignments once you are at a fire based on little more than what one person thinks needs to be done at that time. That concept (where every fire was different and it is impossible to set out predetermined duties prior to the fire) was popular around here in the Early 1900s! Obviously we have learned this isn't the case and have adequately demonstrated that it can be done in the most urban city in this country for decades...when will you adopt our policies? Why aren't we setting the standard? Is it because you are unable or unwilling to meet it?

    While I am at it, can those of you that read this please post what State you are from and whether or not you practice the ICS system at a large working fire.
    New York...and ICS is only used here in planning meetings and high level strategic levels...as far as the operating forces in the field are concerned..we still fight fires the way our fathers and grandfathers did...with few exceptions.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-27-2007 at 10:46 AM.

  25. #150
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Dog,I don't know how to break this to ya,but ICS sure as hell was not "invented"on the left coast.I have to laugh at the new "Nims"way of thinking.It started as a refined version of what we on the East coast have been doing for years.Then Bruno renamed it "Fire Command"from there it went to "Incident Command" then "Incident Command System" then to the "new and improved" National Incident Command System.Now keep in mind this system has been in place for awhile.All four systems operate in the same basic format.Now riddle me this: How well did Nims work in New Orleans? I rest my case.If you don't implement it and use it,you might just as well not bother.The State/Feds preach it but I've yet to see them use it effectively,at least around our area.This so called National standard,while a noble undertaking,is a "working"myth.And as an unfunded concept,I don't see that REALLY changing anytime soon.I tend to side with chi-FF, Fred,Knight and a few of the others here.I've got a few of these book smart,street stupid wannabee Super ff's around here and THEY put my personnel in more danger than us NOT using every branch of the Nims tree.Fires have been around about as long as man,and fought using similar methods for a long time successfully.What HAS happened is the lack of PERSONAL accountability/responsibility and the dumbing down of America. T. C.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 43 First ... 345678916 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. New Nest for the Eagles & Condors !
    By RetJaxFF in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-29-2007, 09:44 PM
  2. F-16 crashes in Charleston, SC **pics**
    By sconfire in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-22-2005, 09:47 AM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 03-07-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-08-2005, 11:07 PM
  4. RFP's
    By D Littrell in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-08-2000, 07:36 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-06-1999, 11:13 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register