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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Dog,I don't know how to break this to ya,but ICS sure as hell was not "invented"on the left coast.I have to laugh at the new "Nims"way of thinking.It started as a refined version of what we on the East coast have been doing for years.Then Bruno renamed it "Fire Command"from there it went to "Incident Command" then "Incident Command System" then to the "new and improved" National Incident Command System.Now keep in mind this system has been in place for awhile.All four systems operate in the same basic format.Now riddle me this: How well did Nims work in New Orleans? I rest my case.If you don't implement it and use it,you might just as well not bother.The State/Feds preach it but I've yet to see them use it effectively,at least around our area.This so called National standard,while a noble undertaking,is a "working"myth.And as an unfunded concept,I don't see that REALLY changing anytime soon.I tend to side with chi-FF, Fred,Knight and a few of the others here.I've got a few of these book smart,street stupid wannabee Super ff's around here and THEY put my personnel in more danger than us NOT using every branch of the Nims tree.Fires have been around about as long as man,and fought using similar methods for a long time successfully.What HAS happened is the lack of PERSONAL accountability/responsibility and the dumbing down of America. T. C.

    You bring up a great point 101, one that I mentioned during a lengthy debate we had in regards to NIMS and ICS within the past year on these forums.

    I found it simply amazing that this system that was created...essentially worked the same as our existing procedures. (at least that was what I was told) It made no sense to me that we needed to adopt an entire system that only added beuracracy and terms to what procedures, terms and polices we already had in place!

    I suppose it would be bad form to call AB a Plagiarist?
    (light fuse...run away.)

    FTM-PTB

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    Call me crazy but I was all ways under the impression that when there is a LODD whether it be 1 or 343 the first and foremost thing we do is honor our brother(s). In any LODD we all need to look at the circumstances surrounding it and see if need to make any changes to the way we operate; 1. on a personal level, 2. on a company level, 3. on a departmental level, and finally to the fire service as a whole. I know that I have reviewed the videos, tapes, and have read accounts of what happened in Charleston and in doing so I have seen some places where I need to improve my skills and knowledge. I have also noticed there are areas that my company and department can improve on. What I have not done is make any assumptions about what anybody else needs to do and neither should anyone one else.

    No matter what you think you know could have done different in Charleston its not your job to get on a soapbox and preach about what should have been done and how "great" and "right" you are. Its your job, your DUTY to learn from this tragedy and make any necessary changes to YOUR operations to help prevent it from happening to YOU.

    Devildog you need to get off your soapbox and understand that whether or not you're right is not the issue anymore. The issue isn't what was done or not done in Charleston. The issue at hand is simple, it is your seemingly lack of respect for not only the dead but the living. The brothers in Charleston don't need some self righteous *** rubbing their nose in the deaths of their brothers. They need our prayers and our support and IMHO if you can't give either then take a hike and shut your yap you self pretentious, holier than though, we do no wrong, conceited mutt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    [
    Did you ever hear the word RIC or RIT? Hear anything about a crew staging at the door ready to go?
    Did you ever hear the word vent or ventilation? Hear (if it was pre-assigned) that it was done?
    Did you ever hear interior group or sector? I heard crews by engine number.
    As FFFRED has already said just because you did not hear it on the radio does not mean that function was not done. On SFD when my company finishes a task I advise the IC face to face that way I know the message got through. We also stage near the IC. That way if he has another task we are there to do it. He doesn't have to get on the radio and try to find someone he just looks over and calls for my company, no radio use there.

    Even on larger structures the same is true, but instead of the IC we report to the sector officer.

    As for ICS we use it on every run, even the EMS ones. First company officer or acting officer in is command. LFD, Lexington, KY.

  4. #154
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    FFFRED; ICS is used by FDNY in both practice and planning and whilst this may not be obviously apparent to you on the fire-ground, it is a major objective of your city's strategic plan to widen the scope and use of ICS.

    The FDNY uses the ICS on a daily basis. Just take a close look at your high-rise procedure that implements all the basics.

    From the FDNY strategic plan ....

    NIMS is rooted in the ICS that is currently part of FDNY training manuals and
    its implementation is required for the City to receive Federal preparedness assistance through grants, contracts and other sources.

    Following City, State and Federal mandates, as well as the best practices developed by the fire service, emergency medical service and other emergency responders, the FDNY has committed to using the ICS as the means of managing incidents and the resources necessary to carry out emergency response. ICS principles dictate that all Officers be sufficiently trained and capable of effectively performing any assigned role at a variety of incidents. However, for complex, large-scale incidents, it is also beneficial to deploy personnel who are highly trained and specialized in the specific functions required of Incident Management, such as operations, planning and logistics.
    Last edited by Batt18; 08-27-2007 at 10:19 AM.

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    Devildog-- You do realize, your great state of Cali did not actually create ICS, don't you? The wildland group took what military leaders have been using for centuries and adapted it to the fire service. While beneficial and certainly useful, it's not a situation where everyone can use the same system.

    NIMS is only an attempt to standardize that system in a fashion where if there's a major incident involving mulitple agencies, they are on the same page. If you look at the basic NIMS package, it's the same system many departments have been using for decades.

    Have you ever been on a fire involving an LODD? Let me tell you from personal experience, things go to hell in a handbag in a hurry, no matter how good of a department you've got. Unless you have been in that situation before, you cannot assume what you'll do. It takes a lot of discipline and training for just that kind of incident to follow procedures and not rush in to do what you can to help. Take that LODD and add 8 more, and you've got a helluva mess. Hell, I would have went to the scene in flip-flops and shorts and drug hose or done what I could with the clothes on my back, just so someone who did have the gear wouldn't have to do the piddly stuff taking them away from rescue ops.

    For you to attempt to come to determinations in regards to this incident before a final investigation is compelete is not only inappropriate and wreckless, but disgusting. The information you keep citing is partial, at best. The recommendations that IC be established, LDH used, etc. are only preliminary recommendations for department improvement, not necessarily what went wrong with this incident.

    How about you lay off these guys until ALL of the information is gathered by people who do so for a living and a final determination has been released. If you want to criticize points of the final investigation, go for it. Until that point, how about you respect Charleston FD and the 9 and quit assuming you have all the info just because you read in the op-ed page and the IAFF rag with what Schaitberger puts in it for his agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    FFFRED; ICS is used by FDNY in both practice and planning and whilst this may not be obviously apparent to you on the fire-ground, it is a major objective of your city's strategic plan to widen the scope and use of ICS.

    The FDNY uses the ICS on a daily basis. Just take a close look at your high-rise procedure that implements all the basics.

    I think Fred's point was that FDNY has been using their form of ICS for years, with their own terminology, language, and methods. In doing so, they have been able to successfully do their job.
    Now, the Feds are mandating that everyone in the country use the same wording and terminology, no matter where you are working. Which is basically instituting change just for the sake of change. Which does not make a lot of sense to me.

    If I'm mistaken Fred, I apologize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    FFFRED; ICS is used by FDNY in both practice and planning and whilst this may not be obviously apparent to you on the fire-ground, it is a major objective of your city's strategic plan to widen the scope and use of ICS.

    The FDNY uses the ICS on a daily basis. Just take a close look at your high-rise procedure that implements all the basics.
    Hey buddy...I know what our polices are and what they aren't...and I know what our strategic plan is and what it isn't. Did you know that much of it is a wish list that never comes to fruition? Or do you believe everything you read from city governments?

    Outside of a few useless changes in terms for about 3 companies at certain fires...the ICS is being used at top levels only...nothing has changed in how we approach or fight a fire. Outside of a few improvements and tweeking...FAST Trucks..etc. the senior men in my house approach fires much like they did when they were probies well over 20 years ago.

    I find it highly Ironic that this system does everything that we have done for decades...did someone copy it to sell books and fill seminar seats??? Who knows. And furthermore if our procedures do exactly what ICS says...why would we ever need to adopt your system.

    If anything the attempts to use this new ICS sillyness has brought us away from the KISS principle and closer to problems with an overly beuracratic and cumbersome system that while practical for drawn out week long forest fires doesn't always lend itself to dynamic quickly changing building fires in urban cities.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- Many of these things boy wonder from the land of fruits and nuts cites at part of ICS we don't do...

    We don't announce command.
    First officer doesn't assume comand at a comand post and stay there.
    We don't offer a comprehensive size up until a chiefs aide gives(to a dispatcher) it usually about 5 mintues into a fire...give or take.
    We refer to our members by company...not some made up overlay title that only complicates issues and serves no purpose other than to create beuracracy....

    The list goes on and on...if we practice ICS...it isn't in any form you've ever seen and certain doesn't meet this brain trust's ideal "national standard".
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-27-2007 at 10:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    I think Fred's point was that FDNY has been using their form of ICS for years, with their own terminology, language, and methods. In doing so, they have been able to successfully do their job.
    Now, the Feds are mandating that everyone in the country use the same wording and terminology, no matter where you are working. Which is basically instituting change just for the sake of change. Which does not make a lot of sense to me.

    If I'm mistaken Fred, I apologize.
    You are echoing what we were saying in the last great debate over NIMS...we do what we do regardless of what "national standards" are...sometimes we meet them, other times we don't. The Strategic plan this guy cites has its purpose and some of it has more to do with satisfing poltical needs than fireground needs....similar to how we have a 2in-2out policy that in practice isn't exactly what Batt18 thinks it is.

    But I'll keep finding amusement at others who tell us what our policies and procedures are and what they aren't.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Now, the Feds are mandating that everyone in the country use the same wording and terminology, no matter where you are working. .
    And therein lies my problem with the whole thing. After 20 years of taking ICS, NIMS or whatever it's called this week, the terminology changes with almost every new class I take on the subject. If a "national" standard is to be implemented, certainly the terminology should remain constant - we have enough other stuff to train on besides what terminology the feds are using for "truck duty" this month.

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    Fred... Please dont tell me you think with the information provided, you believe the chief ran a good fire scene. This isnt about New York, California, or Georgia. It is making sure that something like this dosent happen again.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    Fred... Please dont tell me you think with the information provided, you believe the chief ran a good fire scene. This isnt about New York, California, or Georgia. It is making sure that something like this dosent happen again.
    Mikey,

    I never said that...the point I've been making all along is not one person has citied offical CFD policy or procedure for Engines or Ladders on here nor have they cited where if this policy existed they strayed from it.

    I've only seen the preliminary list of issues which deals with more than just this fire and it would appear some certain peoples agendas. Until we see anything offical that states some relevant facts...these proclimations from devil dog are grossly premature and are with little to no merit.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Hey buddy...I know what our polices are and what they aren't...and I know what our strategic plan is and what it isn't.

    I find it highly Ironic that this system does everything that we have done for decades...did someone copy it to sell books and fill seminar seats??? Who knows. And furthermore if our procedures do exactly what ICS says...why would we ever need to adopt your system.

    FTM-PTB
    Hey 'buddy' ... Firstly FDNY do utilize ICS ok. Like I said, your high-rise procedure is based on the soundest of ICS principles. Secondly, I won't argue with who 'invented' ICS but your comment above suggests that your own system does everything ICS does and you have followed these principles for decades.

    Further FFFred ... I didn't mention anything about '2 in/2 out'.

    Let's just be clear here ... the official reports are not out yet but even so, there are clear lessons to be learned by all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Mikey,

    I never said that...the point I've been making all along is not one person has citied offical CFD policy or procedure for Engines or Ladders on here nor have they cited where if this policy existed they strayed from it.

    I've only seen the preliminary list of issues which deals with more than just this fire and it would appear some certain peoples agendas. Until we see anything offical that states some relevant facts...these proclimations from devil dog are grossly premature and are with little to no merit.

    FTM-PTB
    FFFred is absolutely correct!!! This is the point that I have been trying to make from the get-go. There has yet to be a report that includes information that is specific to the CFD LODD. WE DON"T KNOW THEIR POLICIES AND WE DON"T KNOW THE FACTS.

    The only report that has been released is the preliminary recommendations. This preliminary report is very general and is aimed at overall CFD dept operations and policies. The Union backs the report and I am backing my Union brothers. By backing I mean... supporting them in THEIR quest. It's not OUR quest, and we were not hired to provide a report. WE DON"T KNOW THEIR POLICIES AND WE DON"T KNOW THE FACTS.

    That being said. If you can learn something to make youself better from reading the articles or listening to the tapes... GREAT. But those of you who act like god's gift to the fire service, and constantly **** on the graves of our fallen brothers... go to HELL!
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Let's just be clear here ... the official reports are not out yet but even so, there are clear lessons to be learned by all.
    You are correct... there are lessons to be learned by all. The lessons will be learned best when we have ALL of the facts. They will be learned best when we read the reports and learn our own lessons. I certainly don't need any of you telling me what I need to learn!!!
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

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    The only report that has been released is the preliminary recommendations.
    And what is the credibility of those when they add BS like a PIO, seat belt usage, and eliminating 10 codes?
    Even with out the official report, it's evident that none of these had anything to do with the tragedy.
    With that said, I will refrain from posting anymore on the subject until the official report is released. Though I do hope that we can all enjoy the utopia that some federal fire buff enjoys in the eden of kalifornia. Ah, the days of error free firefighting in where you can crucify other's.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Hey 'buddy' ... Firstly FDNY do utilize ICS ok. Like I said, your high-rise procedure is based on the soundest of ICS principles. Secondly, I won't argue with who 'invented' ICS but your comment above suggests that your own system does everything ICS does and you have followed these principles for decades.

    Further FFFred ... I didn't mention anything about '2 in/2 out'.

    Let's just be clear here ... the official reports are not out yet but even so, there are clear lessons to be learned by all.

    Our high-rise procedures are based on fighting fires in High-rise buildings...not on ICS principles or anything else. They've been developed over decades...and long before ICS came along. My point is just because someone plagerized our operational procedures and call them by a different name and essentially define it's structure with new superfoulous terms doesn't mean we use ICS. I formerly worked in a dept that was within a county where every dept used ICS in a form you are most familiar with I'm sure. I know what it is suppose to run like and we don't even begin to come close to it on the fireground...perhaps at staff Chief meetings downtown or at large complex week long operations (such as this g*ddamned Bank building fire downtown) but not at our typical fires.

    Which came first the chicken or the egg? Did Firescope or AB plagiarize the Older and wiser East Coast departments to propell his career and pad his wallet? Or did we somehow magicly decades before the creation of this ICS predict what these wise old suburban chiefs would come up with and place that in our procedures?

    The vast majority of our procedures pre-date any substancial FDNY involvement in ICS...look at the writings of Chief Dunn or any of our other Chiefs, officers or members...for the most part one could conduct a drill on those writtings from Fire Engineering from the 80s or WNYF or even before and not have to change any of the information contained within.

    My point is guy Devildog is claiming that these men's deaths are attributible to not following any number of "national standards" or ICS rules and thus the justification for the complete overhaul of the Charleston FD....my Dept doesn't jump through most of those amature football game rules and concepts and neither do a few others on here...Chicago notably. Which begs of the question...do we need a complete overhaul because we don't follow his arbitrary rules made up by some suburban Chiefs, so that they could bring order to undisiplined and poorly commanded companies years ago at grass fires? Does Chicago, Boston...etc...who all use predetermined assigments and still refer to companies as who they are and not what they are technically doing at that very moment....need this overhaul as well?

    If we don't need an overhaul based on his assertions I can't see how one could make the case for CFD to do so as well. Their might be justification for an overhaul...however that needs to be based on fact and I've yet to see that in print anywhere.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- the 2in-2out was an example that what you may read isn't what it really is in reality and you would have no clue otherwise. I know what our policy and procedures are based on...you clearly don't.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-27-2007 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Our high-rise procedures are based on fighting fires in High-rise buildings...not on ICS principles or anything else. They've been developed over decades...and long before ICS came along.

    PS- the 2in-2out was an example that what you may read isn't what it really is in reality and you would have no clue otherwise. I know what our policy and procedures are based on...you clearly don't.
    Well FFFRED maybe you should take a look back at your SOPs in the 1970s/80s/90s etc because there is clear language and terminology that develops throughout that is mirrored by the ICS structure. Command posts; Staging; etc etc. I won't argue which came first ok but my point is, your procedures in High-rise specific mirror ICS. Any high-rise SOP should have the basics of effective incident management (ICS) incorporated within it and FDNY does.

    You talk of other inner city departments such as Chicago and Boston who, like FDNY, don't need to follow such national 'standards' as ICS, and yet Chicago were publicly slammed for their failings in ICS during a high-rise tragedy back in 2003 that led to the deaths of several occupants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Fact are facts. The Command system was a huge problem at this fire. CFD guys tell you so. Expert panel tells you. IAFF tells you. I am telling you.
    One more time.... What department do you work for? What city or municipality do you protect? What kind of structures make up your still district? How many runs does your company run? Fire and ems or just fire?

    Why can't you just answer these simple questions?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    d dog --- my Grandmother use to say " before you criticize others -- make sure your own front porch is swept. " I bet your little engine company would have a few flaws if put under the microscope. Espically if they encountered a situation such as Charleston faced. And by the way , I have fought fires all over the country including your little utopia, and ICS is not a "cure all/ end all"
    In fact I have seen it used as an excuse for every thing from laziness to outright cowardness.
    ICS should not be used as a subsuitite for clear thinking and sound judgment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Well FFFRED maybe you should take a look back at your SOPs in the 1970s/80s/90s etc because there is clear language and terminology that develops throughout that is mirrored by the ICS structure. Command posts; Staging; etc etc. I won't argue which came first ok but my point is, your procedures in High-rise specific mirror ICS. Any high-rise SOP should have the basics of effective incident management (ICS) incorporated within it and FDNY does.
    I have...we have a dept library where just about everything can be researched...many of our members going back to the begining of profesional firefighting have written books and articles on this very subject matter. I've read many of these offerings...how many have you read?

    Do our proceedures mirror ICS...or does ICS mirrior us? We've had highrises and highrise procedures for longer than ICS has been around....figure that one out. Did the Chicken come before the egg? Who plagerized whom?

    You talk of other inner city departments such as Chicago and Boston who, like FDNY, don't need to follow such national 'standards' as ICS, and yet Chicago were publicly slammed for their failings in ICS during a high-rise tragedy back in 2003 that led to the deaths of several occupants.
    As I said...I could hold your little burb dept up to our standards and you would fail to meet most if not all of them. Some people out west plagerized procedures and policies from other Departments, add new material and levels of beuracracy that they feel is neccessary to keep tabs on their poorly disiplined units and then hold others accountable to those standards.

    This topic isn't about Chicago or Boston. The point was Devildog claims that because among other things they didnt' meet these silly paternalistic rules that his FD (still not sure which one that is) has that this is why these men died and what needs to change...and all without knowing one policy or procedure employed by the CFD and if those policies were even followed.

    Are you claiming as Devil dog is among other things that failure to use function/assingment desinations on the radio in lieu company assignments cost those peoples lives in Chicago and the 9 brothers in Charleston?

    FTM-PTB

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    FFFRED - Answers in bold text ....

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I have...we have a dept library where just about everything can be researched...many of our members going back to the begining of profesional firefighting have written books and articles on this very subject matter. I've read many of these offerings...how many have you read?

    Yes I have read a lot of books FFFred and studied your SOPs back to the 1970s.

    Do our proceedures mirror ICS...or does ICS mirrior us? We've had highrises and highrise procedures for longer than ICS has been around....figure that one out. Did the Chicken come before the egg? Who plagerized whom?

    That's another debate and a good one! Point is, both mirror each other and as your earlier quotes suggest, you agree with the principles of a structured incident command.

    As I said...I could hold your little burb dept ??? up to our standards and you would fail to meet most if not all of them. Some people out west plagerized procedures and policies from other Departments, add new material and levels of beuracracy that they feel is neccessary to keep tabs on their poorly disiplined units and then hold others accountable to those standards.

    This topic isn't about Chicago or Boston. The point was Devildog claims that because among other things they didnt' meet these silly paternalistic rules that his FD (still not sure which one that is) has that this is why these men died and what needs to change...and all without knowing one policy or procedure employed by the CFD and if those policies were even followed.

    Are you claiming as Devil dog is among other things that failure to use function/assingment desinations on the radio in lieu company assignments cost those peoples lives in Chicago and the 9 brothers in Charleston?

    FFFred I have seen you post here before condemning 'micro managed firegrounds'. That's what this was in Charleston ... a 'micro managed Fire'.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    and yet Chicago were publicly slammed for their failings in ICS during a high-rise tragedy back in 2003 that led to the deaths of several occupants.
    Whats your point? I know what caused the problem at 69 W. Washington and it had nothing to do with ics. Do you? Don't think you know the answer because i gaurantee you will be wrong. The problem was not with our high rise order...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Whats your point? I know what caused the problem at 69 W. Washington and it had nothing to do with ics. Do you? Don't think you know the answer because i gaurantee you will be wrong. The problem was not with our high rise order...
    My point to Fred was to demonstrate how important ICS is on the fireground and that there have been breakdowns in ICS prior to Charleston that have created problems. Don't take offense or become defensive here Chicago because I have the greatest respect for Chicago FD and the ability of its firefighters, but the 2003 fire was a typical example of ICS failures (amongst others) (and we all have them)!.

    Inadequate incident command procedures that did not allow for effective fire ground management and poor allocation of resources to address life safety demands
    (Witt Report).

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    You believe what you want about that fire and I'll stick with what I know.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    You believe what you want about that fire and I'll stick with what I know.
    Not only do these guys have all the answers about what presumably needs to be fixed in Charleston...but in Chicago as well! I can't wait until these guys waving the ICS flags come second guessing us again!

    FTM-PTB

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