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  1. #121
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    I am guessing Camp Pendelton for the Marine Corps.


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  6. #126
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    Giving building type, construction and occupancy are a given standard. - and again, going to 1205 Ocean Avenue in my town does not require someone to say what it is as everyone in the department already knows this. Why type up the radio with already known information?

    Standard method is to say something like ”establishing sofa store command, Chief 1 will be sofa store IC” - Standard for you. Not standard in my area. We are dispatched to the sofa store, why does someone need to say establishing sofa store command? We already know that's where we are going and that command will be there.

    Clear text is the standard. - Standard for who? I'm sure you'll get some NY and possibly Chicago guys to tell you it's not standard there.

    I never heard anyone (if predesignated by SOP’s) stage at a hydrant or given distance away. - and you won't hear us saying we are staging at hydrant. That's our SOP for 2nd due engine. 1st due we know will be laying in.

    How does that work in the SOP’s? First engine does this, second engine does that and first truck does something else? If functions were automatic and in SOP, I never heard anybody say anything about completing those tasks, i.e. “primary search done – all clear” or “ventilation complete” or “utilities shut off”, etc. - Engine 1's assignments are set and known. They get water supply and stretch lines. Truck 1's assignments are set and known. Officer and 2 guys go interior and search. 1 guy goes to roof. 1 guy goes for OV assignment. Engine 2, Truck 2, Engine 3, and Truck 3 are also set and known what they are to be doing.

    Another basic thing not done. Saying “roger” or “10-4” does not mean that you clearly heard and understand what was said. The only way to do this is to repeat the order or task, so the sender knows the receiver got the correct intent of the message or order. - Again, tasks/duties/assignments/functions are preassigned. I don't need Engine 1/Truck 1 to acknowledge their function as they know it before they arrive.

    If it was in the SOP’s, then they weren’t followed. (and yet, we don't know their SOP's)

    You are kidding, right? We got a mayday call, emergency button radio activation, 7 or 8 attempts to contact that crew (with no answer) and firefighter safety/accountability is not the priority? First thing is that ALL OPERATIONS should stop until everyone is accounted for during a situation like that. - No, not kidding. Engine 1's crew will continue putting water on the fire, they aren't going to back out of the building for a roll call. They can respond with their status and continue their job. Truck 1 interior team can continue searching and radio their status. I'd rather guys that respond with their status to continue their job. That fire they are putting water on just may be the fire that is burning the lost members.

    Unless the Safety Officer (I never heard one) could be inside and outside and all over at once, this has to be done on the radio. I never heard any type of count being done, or results given to anyone, including dispatch. - Incident of this size, we'd have multiple safety officers who would monitor regular fire channel, but also use their own. Can't speak for Charleston as again, don't know their procedure for this.

    The Chief specifically asked dispatch to find out who activated the emergency button. I never heard dispatch follow-up on that. - Got ya. Missed that part. My bad.

    -------------------------------------

    Again, the way things are done in your area can be different than how things work in another area. You may not agree with how others operate, and others may not agree with your way. Doesn't make either one the "right" way or "wrong" way as they may work very well in their respective areas. I don't know Charleston's way, so I can't say it's good/bad/otherwise. Did things go in a way that I entirely agree with? No. But that MAY be their way of operating for a reason. And they MAY not have followed their standard way of operating. Without knowing their way, can't say.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Oh No, did I just find out that elevated master streams were being used to direct water through holes in the roof while FF's were still inside? Please don't tell me that's true. Hmmm. One of the most basic first things they teach you not to do.
    Now was that before or after the collapse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    Now was that before or after the collapse?
    Good question, however, the collapse didn't kill them, they died from burns and smoke inhalation. I do know the front of the building was ventilated while the fire fighters were between the fire and the vent.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Giving building type, construction and occupancy are a given standard. - and again, going to 1205 Ocean Avenue in my town does not require someone to say what it is as everyone in the department already knows this. Why type up the radio with already known information?

    Standard method is to say something like ”establishing sofa store command, Chief 1 will be sofa store IC” - Standard for you. Not standard in my area. We are dispatched to the sofa store, why does someone need to say establishing sofa store command? We already know that's where we are going and that command will be there.

    Clear text is the standard. - Standard for who? I'm sure you'll get some NY and possibly Chicago guys to tell you it's not standard there.
    ...
    In our Area we are supposed to state that the Incident Command is being established and the location. Something like this "E811 establishing incident command at E811" This let's everyone know where to find the IC and also esablishes a place for accountability. We use the two tag system for that.

    I'm from NY and we use plain text as the standard for communications. In fact, 10 codes are not supposed to be used at all, although a few still say 10-4. It's hard to train some people. We also have standard SOPs that talk to which channels are to be used for communications. The county frequency is used to communicate with dispatch. We then have fire ground 2,3,and 4 which are to be used for fire ground operations.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Taken from the July/August International Firefighter magazine:

    Safety measures and common-sense procedures endorsed by fire departments across the country and regulating bodies like the NFPA are ignored by those in command in many South Carolina cities. In Charleston, their cowboy chief endorsed, embraced and made standard unsafe tactics that most in our profession recognize as outdated decades ago.

    The deaths of the Charleston Nine are a clarion call that we must stand up and demand change. The remarks of Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas should send a shiver down the spine of every fire fighter and their families. “Our fire fighting techniques are not going to change in the city of Charleston Fire Department,” he said on June 27.

    I wonder if this chief has any idea that it wasn’t just bad luck that killed these nine brave men who were doing their jobs, as they were trained and as command directed. Command in Charleston isn’t the only thing in need of change. NFPA 1710 is nowhere on the radar screen in the state. It’s the only state in the nation to have a short-sighted regulation that only requires two-in, one-out, instead of the national standard two-in, two-out. Fire fighters and fire inspectors aren’t required to be certified
    .
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ChicagoFF and Bones42: I understand what you are trying to say, but the tapes don't support that. If there was a SOP for all those things, then either the SOP doesn't work or nobody followed it.

    Heard no proper size-up.
    - Can't argue that one, however, we have many places we respond to often that size up is not given since everyone knows the location well. Giving building type, construction and occupancy are a given standard.

    Heard no command being established.
    - Command is first officer on scene, no need to announce who it is as we don't care, just that someone answers when we call Command on the radio. Standard method is to say something like ”establishing sofa store command, Chief 1 will be sofa store IC”

    Heard no use of clear text only.
    - We can go back and forth over that. 10 codes work fine as does clear text. Clear text is the standard.

    Heard no command and tactical channel(s) assigned to fire. - Again, no need. Channels are pre assigned and not made up at the scene. I am not sure and could be wrong, but heard dispatch and tone outs and move ups on the same channel as the fireground tactical channel.

    Heard no order for primary or secondary vehicle staging.
    - In our SOP's so no need to transmit again over the radio. I never heard anyone (if predesignated by SOP’s) stage at a hydrant or given distance away.

    Heard nobody assigned a task/radio designator (interior, search & rescue, safety, ventilation, utilities, RIT, etc).
    Again, in SOP's so you won't hear any of that. How does that work in the SOP’s? First engine does this, second engine does that and first truck does something else? If functions were automatic and in SOP, I never heard anybody say anything about completing those tasks, i.e. “primary search done – all clear” or “ventilation complete” or “utilities shut off”, etc.

    Heard no primary or secondary search clear signal given.
    - That one you will commonly hear. Didn’t hear it this time. Rescue is the number one priority. Never heard anything on the tape until dispatch advised man trapped inside.

    Heard no repeating of or acknowledgement of tasks/assignments given. - Repeats won't be heard. Acknowledgement will be. Another basic thing not done. Saying “roger” or “10-4” does not mean that you clearly heard and understand what was said. The only way to do this is to repeat the order or task, so the sender knows the receiver got the correct intent of the message or order.

    Heard no orders for every incoming unit to standby/position at a hydrant or orders for everyone to lay their own water supply lines. - Again, SOP's so you won't hear it. If it was in the SOP’s, then they weren’t followed. Water supply was a critical problem. A single 2 ˝” line to a ladder truck will not work. 1,000 gpm = minimum 3 or 4 lines. If additional preconnects are off that truck, even more water is needed. With smoke showing (for the first unit on scene) or working fire (all others) everybody can’t just go to the fire without their own supply line. I think it was the 3rd in engine that was the first to connect to a hydrant.

    Heard no order to stop all operations and conduct an accountability check after first mayday call.
    - Won't hear us stop everything while accountability is taken either. Firefighting tasks will continue during the process. You are kidding, right? We got a mayday call, emergency button radio activation, 7 or 8 attempts to contact that crew (with no answer) and firefighter safety/accountability is not the priority? First thing is that ALL OPERATIONS should stop until everyone is accounted for during a situation like that.

    Heard no accountability count actually being taken or results conveyed to the Chief. - Count will be given to Safety Officer who will verbally give to Chief. Unless the Safety Officer (I never heard one) could be inside and outside and all over at once, this has to be done on the radio. I never heard any type of count being done, or results given to anyone, including dispatch.

    Heard nothing from dispatch to units in field after Chief advised them by phone of emergency signal activation and asked them to inquire who activated it. - Our dispatch is not involved with on scene radio transmissions. The Chief specifically asked dispatch to find out who activated the emergency button. I never heard dispatch follow-up on that.

    Knight Dude: I believe you said to me;

    "How much more urine are you going to expel on their graves to get your point across you self serving mutt?"

    "I'm sure you can find something in those tragedies that doesn't meet the standards of your freakin left coast utopia"


    "and before you open anyone else's eyes or brain you need to pull the gourd that contains your own out of your smug, condescending backside"

    Personal opinions are one thing, attacks are another. Cool it, dude!
    When will it sink in, goofy. Just because you do something does not make it a "standard". What department are you on? Why don't you post your rube departments operations manual. I'm sure everyone would have a field day picking it apart. Nevermind. I'm sure you'll just keep posting articles and saying dumb things.

    Standard method is to say something like ”establishing sofa store command, Chief 1 will be sofa store IC”Where did this "standard" come from? The still chief will be in charge and of course he would be at the location of the fire. What kind of hillbillies need this spelled out on the radio?

    Clear text is the standard.
    Says who? And what is clear text? Everyone uses different terms for almost everything.

    I am not sure and could be wrong, but heard dispatch and tone outs and move ups on the same channel as the fireground tactical channel.Could it be that you heard a recording of a scanner picking up all channels?

    I never heard anyone (if predesignated by SOP’s) stage at a hydrant or given distance away.Nobody here stages at hydrants or gives distances. Why would we??? All engines get their own hydrants. If incoming rigs are going to be staged, an intersection is given.

    How does that work in the SOP’s? First engine does this, second engine does that and first truck does something else? If functions were automatic and in SOP, I never heard anybody say anything about completing those tasks, i.e. “primary search done – all clear” or “ventilation complete” or “utilities shut off”, etc.All initial tasks are known. With the exception of searches, you think every action on the fire ground needs to be reported over the radio? Yeah, good plan. Have everyone there stop working every 2 minutes to call the chief and tell him that they are doing their job.

    Another basic thing not done. Saying “roger” or “10-4” does not mean that you clearly heard and understand what was said. The only way to do this is to repeat the order or task, so the sender knows the receiver got the correct intent of the message or order.Another hillbilly request. You understand that guys might be busy but as professionals can be trusted to do their jobs without all your micky mouse bs, right? If I say "OK" or "got it" that means I got it.

    Basically, you are one of those ******bags that likes hearing himself sound important on a radio and, therefore, ties it up all the time with petty BS just to let the chief know you are there and "doin it" or gittin er done" or whatever hillbillies call it these days. You say you want all this to fit some mythological "national standard". I say it's because you are a suckhole that is overly impressed with himself and his job.

    Whatever. I'm sick of typing. Maybe I'll just start cutting and pasting like you. Post your operations manual and tell us all what department you are on.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 08-25-2007 at 09:56 AM.
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  12. #132
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post

    Knight Dude: I believe you said to me;

    "How much more urine are you going to expel on their graves to get your point across you self serving mutt?"

    "I'm sure you can find something in those tragedies that doesn't meet the standards of your freakin left coast utopia"


    "and before you open anyone else's eyes or brain you need to pull the gourd that contains your own out of your smug, condescending backside"

    Personal opinions are one thing, attacks are another. Cool it, dude!
    No, YOU cool it: those are not attacks; that is me calling it like I see it. You are nothing more than an armchair fire chief that has an inflated opinion of his own knowledge and importance. You have tossed out the term "incompetent" and refereed to "Bubba and Vern" when describing this incident and this department as a whole and may I again remind you that includes the arnk and file survivors AND THOSE WHO DIED, and for that sir I consider you an insufferable ******bag. Don't like it? Report me to the webteam. There are issues with the Charleston Fire Department that definately need correcting but I will be damned if I'm going to sit idely by while you make your snide comments about "Bubba and Vern" in regards to my brothers and sisters in Charleston. And as others have said, who says all this bs you post is standard? Standard for your department maybe. Name the command? I'm dispatched to a fire at Walmart, and since we only have one in town I'm pretty sure everyone knows which one we're operating at I can counter all the other crap you posted, but ChicagoFF and Bones have already done so in pretty much the same answers I would give. And in closing let me make this perfectly clear: you need to STFU up on the self-righteous boasting about the moral superiority of your "department" ( if you ever on one and not some know-it-all whacker), let the brothers in SC grieve without you throwing stones at them, and get a friggin life. You think the way you do things is much better than the way they do things? Good for you for being so awesome. Hopefully death will never come calling on your department and prove to you that even the "perfect" plan devised by mortal human beings will never outwit the forces of nature.

    And again I'm not your frickin' "dude"

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    Hey devildog4 Dude. I see you haven't been here very long. You will find out over time that there are no National Standards. That fires in NYC, Chicago, and other big cities are different, no two places will have the same kinds of fires. The USFA, NFPA, DHS, NIOSH, and OSHA have no idea about fire fighting and their reports, recommendations, standards etc. are useless organizations. You will also find that many of the people on these forums are far smarter and superior in knowledge than those in the afore mentioned organizations. They believe in doing the same things over and over and over, making the same mistakes. I believe it was Freud who used that as a definition.

    The sad part is that people in this professions keep getting killed on the job by making the same mistakes over and over. And in the case of CFD, the Union recognized the problems and wanted changes in 2002. Rusty stuck with his tradition and didn't change a thing. He lost 9 fire fighters and said he wouldn't change a thing (although he has since figured out that he does need to change and follow national standards).

    You will never get some of these guys to admit that plain text is the National Standard according to NIMS. Of course anyone who has gotten a federal grant is supposed to adopt and use NIMS, so I guess those departments that haven't done that need to send their money back.

    You aren't the first intelligent forward thinking person to come to these boards and try to change some opinions and methods. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, these gus would rather do it the same old way. Good Luck in your quest to make the fire service a better and safer place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Hey devildog4 Dude. I see you haven't been here very long. You will find out over time that there are no National Standards. That fires in NYC, Chicago, and other big cities are different, no two places will have the same kinds of fires. The USFA, NFPA, DHS, NIOSH, and OSHA have no idea about fire fighting and their reports, recommendations, standards etc. are useless organizations. You will also find that many of the people on these forums are far smarter and superior in knowledge than those in the afore mentioned organizations. They believe in doing the same things over and over and over, making the same mistakes. I believe it was Freud who used that as a definition.

    The sad part is that people in this professions keep getting killed on the job by making the same mistakes over and over. And in the case of CFD, the Union recognized the problems and wanted changes in 2002. Rusty stuck with his tradition and didn't change a thing. He lost 9 fire fighters and said he wouldn't change a thing (although he has since figured out that he does need to change and follow national standards).

    You will never get some of these guys to admit that plain text is the National Standard according to NIMS. Of course anyone who has gotten a federal grant is supposed to adopt and use NIMS, so I guess those departments that haven't done that need to send their money back.

    You aren't the first intelligent forward thinking person to come to these boards and try to change some opinions and methods. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, these gus would rather do it the same old way. Good Luck in your quest to make the fire service a better and safer place.
    Is this from the guy that said he never knew you were supposed to check the drop ceiling for fire.....
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  15. #135
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Is this from the guy that said he never knew you were supposed to check the drop ceiling for fire.....
    With similar blind, lockstep quoting of "standards", cutting and pasting, and smug cluelessness I'm starting to think devilmutt and Trotter are the same person...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Is this from the guy that said he never knew you were supposed to check the drop ceiling for fire.....
    Yup, I never claimed to know it all. I just know that there are certain things we are supposed to do. Lacking any real industrial buildings we don't have many drp ceilings.

    What I do know is that the folks who write these reports, regulations, and standards know more about what needs to be done than the average FF. Many of these standards and regulations are written for a reason, to prevent LODD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor View Post
    With similar blind, lockstep quoting of "standards", cutting and pasting, and smug cluelessness I'm starting to think devilmutt and Trotter are the same person...
    Sorry to disappoint you, but it appears there is more than one person who has the eduction, has done the reading, and knows what is supposed to happen. Somehow the knowledge seems to get lost between the classroom and the field. Such looks to be the case in the CFD.

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    You will never get some of these guys to admit that plain text is the National Standard according to NIMS. Of course anyone who has gotten a federal grant is supposed to adopt and use NIMS, so I guess those departments that haven't done that need to send their money back.
    HotTrotter, you may want to read your NIMS guidelines a bit more in detail. Clear Text (or plain english codes ) are not mandatory. They are recommended for operations involving multiple agencies.

    But you know that already.


    The USFA, NFPA, DHS, NIOSH, and OSHA have no idea about fire fighting and their reports, recommendations, standards etc. are useless organizations. You will also find that many of the people on these forums are far smarter and superior in knowledge than those in the afore mentioned organizations.
    Just curious, but do you honestly believe all the people in those organizations are smarter and superior in knowledge than you? In all those organizations, which one knows YOUR department the best?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    HotTrotter, you may want to read your NIMS guidelines a bit more in detail. Clear Text (or plain english codes ) are not mandatory. They are recommended for operations involving multiple agencies.

    But you know that already.


    Just curious, but do you honestly believe all the people in those organizations are smarter and superior in knowledge than you? In all those organizations, which one knows YOUR department the best?
    Ahh it could be that they became recommended, I believe at one time they were supposed to be mandatory.

    I do know that those organizations have looked at more LODDs and investigated more near misses than we have. That is how they come up with the guidelines they have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    What I do know is that the folks who write these reports, regulations, and standards know more about what needs to be done than the average FF.
    I would like to see these "fire" experts fire ground experience listed. I seriously doubt that it would come anywhere near to the firefighting time and knowledge of the combined experience of the Chicago Fire Department chiefs. Our department has investigated 564 of our own line of duty deaths. Believe me, they have some knowledge of the process.

    My point in bringing up your short comings when it comes to fireground operations was to point out the obvious - you should learn the basics of your job before you come on here and climb on a soap box to preach to us about how things should be done. Maybe if people thought you had any real experience they would be more willing to tolerate your wildly delusional views about how things should be. Quoting ifsta, nfpa, nims, or any of the other geniuses won't win you much credibility....
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 08-25-2007 at 04:43 PM.
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