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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post

    Heard no order to stop all operations and conduct an accountability check after first mayday call.
    - Won't hear us stop everything while accountability is taken either. Firefighting tasks will continue during the process. You are kidding, right? We got a mayday call, emergency button radio activation, 7 or 8 attempts to contact that crew (with no answer) and firefighter safety/accountability is not the priority? First thing is that ALL OPERATIONS should stop until everyone is accounted for during a situation like that.
    The last thing you want to do is STOP all operations while accountability is taken. You still want firefighters putting the wet stuff on the red stuff. What chance do missing firefighters have if you stop fighting the fire. I was always taught if you put the fire out you have solved most of the problem.

    We are trained not to stop operations during a mayday. Your actions may make the difference, finishing ventilation, put the fire out, finish your primary. That is when you send in your RIT and your "on deck" crews to manage the mayday. Yours is the textbook answer for the situation. If you stop operations then you have already written off the lost firefighters.

    I have never had a problem missing an ACT check as company officer, that's my job to answer the radio.

    Maybe when you more experience you'll learn the difference between the book and reality.


  2. #142
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    Devildog...

    If you are a Marine...thanks for your service to our Country.

    That being said...if you are a solider you should probably stick to killing the enemy and leave the firefighting to the profesionals...God help our troops if they are depending on a guy like you to put out their fires.

    You've never heard of pre-assigned positions and duties???....well you sir haven't looked outside that Keystone Cop FD of yours recently.

    Here is some light reading.

    FDNY procedures

    The concept and ideas you are championing has been archaic thinking around here for almost a century!

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-26-2007 at 09:50 AM.

  3. #143
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  4. #144
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    We are trained not to stop operations during a mayday. Your actions may make the difference, finishing ventilation, put the fire out, finish your primary. That is when you send in your RIT and your "on deck" crews to manage the mayday. Yours is the textbook answer for the situation. If you stop operations then you have already written off the lost firefighters.

    That's the way I have always been taught, and that is how we teach it, and that is how it's done here. Hold in place and let RIT handle their business. You can also conduct a PAR while you're still doing your thing. A good company officer knows where his guys are anyhow, whether it be by radio, voice, or visual contact.
    The only chance a guy has who calls a mayday, is if the fire is still fought while your RIT perform.

  5. #145
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BTW Knight Dude, I never offered that I had an “inflated opinion of my own knowledge and importance” or “self-righteous boasting about the moral superiority of my department”. Myself, my engine crew and my dept have all made mistakes.

    We have national standards dude. Get over it. Your dept may or may not adapt them, but they are there for a reason. They save lives. They take you out of the stone age and put you in 2007.
    I will refresh your memory on your orginal post Devil******;

    "For those of you who have not heard these tapes here is the web link to listen to them. Remember, we are in a dangerous profession and listening to these audios, I AM PROUD TO BE A FIREFIGHTER IN THIS GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA which takes the incident command sysytem very seriously!

    As you listen you will hear this incident go into total chaos with no intial set up of IC, RIC, Accountablity, Interior Ops, Staging, etc, etc (kinda reminds me of Hanckinsack NJ Incident a few years back). '

    Sorry, but that is self-righteous boasting. And just for your info junior we don't have to adapt national standards, we are already practicing them, and I never said we didn't, you merely assumed because I take issue with your muttish attitude that we don't...as a matter of fact my career department was the lead fire and EMS agency for the G8 Conference on Sea Island, GA in 2004. I was an acting Battalion Chief for that event, and worked with GMAG units from all over the state as well as pretty much every federal law enforcement agency you can think of including the FBI and Secret Service. I worked as an Engine Boss at the Sweat Farm Rd/Big Turnaround Fire in the Okefenokee Swamp from April of this year until June, and we certainly used the ICS working with over 200 different fire departments from all over Georgia , Forestry units from at least 20 states, National Forest Service and private wildland contractors. So don't lecture me on ICS and national standards and how they work. And I'm still not your frickin dude..I would only let someone I liked call me that; you're nothing more than a West caost knock-off of Hot trotter.

  6. #146
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  7. #147
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Devildog...

    If you are a Marine...thanks for your service to our Country.

    That being said...if you are a solider you should probably stick to killing the enemy and leave the firefighting to the profesionals...God help our troops if they are depending on a guy like you to put out their fires.

    You've never heard of pre-assigned positions and duties???....well you sir haven't looked outside that Keystone Cop FD of yours recently.

    Here is some light reading.

    FDNY procedures

    The concept and ideas you are championing has been archaic thinking around here for almost a century!

    FTM-PTB
    Do you have anything else you could post up for me? I would appreciate it. Thanks.

  8. #148
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    “The investigation is a vital part of the process that allows us to learn from each negative experience, then identify and implement the necessary corrective actions to ensure that the experience isn’t repeated,” wrote Routley in a November 2005 article titled Detective Story.

    Not long after the (Sofa Superstore) fire, the media, former firefighters and safety experts began pointing to, what appeared to be, a lapse in command during the fire and a lack of proper protective equipment for some of the firefighters at the scene.

    The whispers irritated Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas and, when asked the rhetorical question, “If you had the chance to do it over, would you have done anything different?” Thomas emphatically said no.

    Two years before the fatal Charleston fire, in an eerily similar entry in his Detective Story article, Routley discussed the mindset behind that very statement.

    “The investigation of a line-of-duty death or a serious firefighter injury is among the most important and difficult tasks that any fire chief will ever have to face.”

    “The reflex reaction to such questions is often, “We did everything by the book. If we had it all to do over again, we wouldn’t do it any differently.” This response is comforting and possibly reassuring to those involved, but it’s also a denial of the very obvious fact that something must have gone seriously wrong or we wouldn’t have anything to talk about. This response also establishes a defensive posture for every subsequent question, conversation or revelation about what happened.

    “We should be saying, “We’re not sure what went wrong at this point, but we are going to conduct a very thorough investigation and make every effort to ensure it doesn’t happen again.” From the very beginning the emphasis has to be placed on determining what went wrong, what we can learn from the experience and how we can implement those lessons to prevent future occurrences. This process is seldom simple or easy, and it can be extremely painful, but it’s also essential to keep firefighters from being killed or injured in the future for the same reasons.

    “On the opposite side of the equation, in many cases there’s a reluctance to examine circumstances too closely in case they show that the victim was in some way negligent or contributed to the situation … it would be foolish and professionally negligent to ignore facts and fail to learn the lessons from any unfortunate situation. The protective reflex also could apply to shielding other individuals or the fire department itself from critical examination.”

    The lessons, even if they are embarrassing, are much too valuable to be hidden from view,” writes Routley about his investigative mission. “We owe it to our profession to let others learn from our experiences. The reports should be studied and their lessons should be implemented by every fire department.”

    Here are the panel’s recommendations:

    STAFFING: Create three new positions: a safety officer, an assistant to the chief and a public information officer. Have two emergency dispatchers on duty at all times. Staff all fire trucks with at least three firefighters and work toward a minimum of four firefighters per truck.

    COMMAND AND ACCOUNTABILITY: Follow national standards and use a formal command structure for managing all incidents. Have a specific officer monitor safety at fires. Quickly put in place a system for keeping track of all city workers at fire scenes.

    SAFETY: Insist firefighters wear full protective gear, use air masks and buckle seatbelts while riding in trucks. Follow federal standards requiring that two firefighters be stationed outside a burning building for every two who enter. Reinforce safety procedures for off-duty firefighters who respond to emergencies.

    TRAINING: Train all officers in incident-command procedures and ensure that all commanders are schooled in safety management. Raise minimum training standards for all new recruits.

    COMMUNICATIONS: Increase the number of fire crews and commanders automatically sent to structure fires. Have one engine crew at fire scenes on standby to rescue trapped or injured firefighters. Eliminate use of numbered codes in radio transmission in favor of plain language all can understand.

    EQUIPMENT: Use larger hose lines to supply trucks and firefighters with more water to douse blazes. Significantly reduce the use of small “booster” lines that have served as the primary hoses for attacking many fires.
    http://thegaggle.wordpress.com/2007/...ordon-routley/

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Knight Dude! You're back!

    Ya know, ya missed my point AGAIN! My first point was that the ICS system is taken very seriously here on the Westcoast. Invented here. Every dept must know and practice it. I am so glad to hear that YOUR dept practices it (and national standards). Too bad CFD does not.
    Created by a bunch of suburban Chiefs who had and problem of poorly disiplined companies and idiot company officers who came from all over your state to fight grass and tree fires. That is comendable, they created order where you had some problems. Good for you.

    That however doesn't mean your system will work everywhere or should be wholesale adopted by anyone who you think is beneath you. I've yet to see any rational thought or reasoning as to why this ICS would have prevented any deaths as you so claim.

    With your extensive wildland experience, you more than others should be all too familiar with the ICS system and it's importance. After you listened to the tape, you, more than others, should have heard and agree with "as you listen you will hear this incident go into total chaos with no intial set up of IC, RIC, Accountablity, Interior Ops, Staging, etc, etc" . If I am wrong, I will publicly apologize.
    I listened and heard it go into total chaos with no use of our procedures and policies either...does that mean they should blindly and without reservation completely adopt our system or should they adopt your made-up command system designed for grass fires? At least ours was developed over 140+ years of profesional firefighting (as I'm sure Chicagos system would also work as well) and has been proven in the heaviest fire duty this country has ever seen to date.

    If your argument is that they had little to no procedures or command system in place...then any command system will do, no?

    Their is nothing to say that your ideal world of ICS would have done anything for them, anymore than had they adopted my depts procedures things would have been different...you are making many assumptions on little factual information.

    Did you ever hear the word command or IC, or just Chief? It is a function, not a rank.
    Merely semantics.
    Did you ever hear the word RIC or RIT? Hear anything about a crew staging at the door ready to go?
    Do you know for sure that none of this was done or another similar measure wasn't taken? I haven't seen an offical report that states such...have you?
    Did you ever hear the word vent or ventilation? Hear (if it was pre-assigned) that it was done?
    Just like Chicago mentioned...around here we don't typically tell the chief every time we do our jobs...they assume the venting is being accomplished, and the 1st Due companies can tell when it is and isn't being done in the normal manner. We don't clutter the air with nonsense just to hear ourselves talk or sound important, if we incounter unexpected obstacles then and only they do we tell the Chief what the problem or delay is...perhaps that is what they were doing...I don't know because it isn't in a report and neither you nor anyone else has citied their Dept procedures as of yet.

    Did you ever hear interior group or sector? I heard crews by engine number.
    That is more or less what you will hear around here as well...if the 16th Battalion wants to speak to the officer of Engine Co. 71...he will state.."Battalion 1-6 to Engine 7-1." If he wants to speak to the roof man of Ladder 22 he will state..."Battalion 1-6 to 2-2 Roof." I don't know why you must insist on creating names and titles for companies that already have names and titles. Makes no sense to us...and further demonstrates your "national standard"....isn't national at all.

    You posted "And as others have said, who says all this bs you post is standard? Standard for your department maybe". OK, please tell me one thing that I mentioned as a standard was/is not a NFPA standard or an accepted ICS practice?
    Some of us have no idea and really could care less what NFPA, Firescope, ICS, Alan B. or what any other suburban nonsense you care to cite has to say about what is and isn't a "standard". The point is that this "standard" is in name only and for my department we do and buy what we want...if it happens to be NFPA compliant or whatever great...but that isn't our main concern.

    Fact are facts. The Command system was a huge problem at this fire. CFD guys tell you so. Expert panel tells you. IAFF tells you. I am telling you.
    I haven't seen any comprehensive report from anyone or any of the above.(the list of recomendations doesn't allow for your type of assumptions and statements) and until then or until their offical policy can be cited here...this discussion is not based on any relevant facts...just conjecture.

    As has been said before...perhaps there are some issues that need to be addressed in Charleston...but until the report comes out or you can cite dept procedures the discussion is without merit.

    I really don't like to keep posting on this topic, but as long as you continue to defend an archaic, antiquated, behind-the-times, unsafe system that may have contributed to this tragic loss, I will continue to try and educate you and others.
    If anyone is behind the times it is you. You've never heard of pre-assigned duties and thus I imagine that means you approach a fire like a pick-up football game and hand out assignments once you are at a fire based on little more than what one person thinks needs to be done at that time. That concept (where every fire was different and it is impossible to set out predetermined duties prior to the fire) was popular around here in the Early 1900s! Obviously we have learned this isn't the case and have adequately demonstrated that it can be done in the most urban city in this country for decades...when will you adopt our policies? Why aren't we setting the standard? Is it because you are unable or unwilling to meet it?

    While I am at it, can those of you that read this please post what State you are from and whether or not you practice the ICS system at a large working fire.
    New York...and ICS is only used here in planning meetings and high level strategic levels...as far as the operating forces in the field are concerned..we still fight fires the way our fathers and grandfathers did...with few exceptions.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-27-2007 at 09:46 AM.

  10. #150
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    Dog,I don't know how to break this to ya,but ICS sure as hell was not "invented"on the left coast.I have to laugh at the new "Nims"way of thinking.It started as a refined version of what we on the East coast have been doing for years.Then Bruno renamed it "Fire Command"from there it went to "Incident Command" then "Incident Command System" then to the "new and improved" National Incident Command System.Now keep in mind this system has been in place for awhile.All four systems operate in the same basic format.Now riddle me this: How well did Nims work in New Orleans? I rest my case.If you don't implement it and use it,you might just as well not bother.The State/Feds preach it but I've yet to see them use it effectively,at least around our area.This so called National standard,while a noble undertaking,is a "working"myth.And as an unfunded concept,I don't see that REALLY changing anytime soon.I tend to side with chi-FF, Fred,Knight and a few of the others here.I've got a few of these book smart,street stupid wannabee Super ff's around here and THEY put my personnel in more danger than us NOT using every branch of the Nims tree.Fires have been around about as long as man,and fought using similar methods for a long time successfully.What HAS happened is the lack of PERSONAL accountability/responsibility and the dumbing down of America. T. C.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Dog,I don't know how to break this to ya,but ICS sure as hell was not "invented"on the left coast.I have to laugh at the new "Nims"way of thinking.It started as a refined version of what we on the East coast have been doing for years.Then Bruno renamed it "Fire Command"from there it went to "Incident Command" then "Incident Command System" then to the "new and improved" National Incident Command System.Now keep in mind this system has been in place for awhile.All four systems operate in the same basic format.Now riddle me this: How well did Nims work in New Orleans? I rest my case.If you don't implement it and use it,you might just as well not bother.The State/Feds preach it but I've yet to see them use it effectively,at least around our area.This so called National standard,while a noble undertaking,is a "working"myth.And as an unfunded concept,I don't see that REALLY changing anytime soon.I tend to side with chi-FF, Fred,Knight and a few of the others here.I've got a few of these book smart,street stupid wannabee Super ff's around here and THEY put my personnel in more danger than us NOT using every branch of the Nims tree.Fires have been around about as long as man,and fought using similar methods for a long time successfully.What HAS happened is the lack of PERSONAL accountability/responsibility and the dumbing down of America. T. C.

    You bring up a great point 101, one that I mentioned during a lengthy debate we had in regards to NIMS and ICS within the past year on these forums.

    I found it simply amazing that this system that was created...essentially worked the same as our existing procedures. (at least that was what I was told) It made no sense to me that we needed to adopt an entire system that only added beuracracy and terms to what procedures, terms and polices we already had in place!

    I suppose it would be bad form to call AB a Plagiarist?
    (light fuse...run away.)

    FTM-PTB

  12. #152
    Forum Member jlcooke3's Avatar
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    Call me crazy but I was all ways under the impression that when there is a LODD whether it be 1 or 343 the first and foremost thing we do is honor our brother(s). In any LODD we all need to look at the circumstances surrounding it and see if need to make any changes to the way we operate; 1. on a personal level, 2. on a company level, 3. on a departmental level, and finally to the fire service as a whole. I know that I have reviewed the videos, tapes, and have read accounts of what happened in Charleston and in doing so I have seen some places where I need to improve my skills and knowledge. I have also noticed there are areas that my company and department can improve on. What I have not done is make any assumptions about what anybody else needs to do and neither should anyone one else.

    No matter what you think you know could have done different in Charleston its not your job to get on a soapbox and preach about what should have been done and how "great" and "right" you are. Its your job, your DUTY to learn from this tragedy and make any necessary changes to YOUR operations to help prevent it from happening to YOU.

    Devildog you need to get off your soapbox and understand that whether or not you're right is not the issue anymore. The issue isn't what was done or not done in Charleston. The issue at hand is simple, it is your seemingly lack of respect for not only the dead but the living. The brothers in Charleston don't need some self righteous *** rubbing their nose in the deaths of their brothers. They need our prayers and our support and IMHO if you can't give either then take a hike and shut your yap you self pretentious, holier than though, we do no wrong, conceited mutt.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    [
    Did you ever hear the word RIC or RIT? Hear anything about a crew staging at the door ready to go?
    Did you ever hear the word vent or ventilation? Hear (if it was pre-assigned) that it was done?
    Did you ever hear interior group or sector? I heard crews by engine number.
    As FFFRED has already said just because you did not hear it on the radio does not mean that function was not done. On SFD when my company finishes a task I advise the IC face to face that way I know the message got through. We also stage near the IC. That way if he has another task we are there to do it. He doesn't have to get on the radio and try to find someone he just looks over and calls for my company, no radio use there.

    Even on larger structures the same is true, but instead of the IC we report to the sector officer.

    As for ICS we use it on every run, even the EMS ones. First company officer or acting officer in is command. LFD, Lexington, KY.

  14. #154
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    FFFRED; ICS is used by FDNY in both practice and planning and whilst this may not be obviously apparent to you on the fire-ground, it is a major objective of your city's strategic plan to widen the scope and use of ICS.

    The FDNY uses the ICS on a daily basis. Just take a close look at your high-rise procedure that implements all the basics.

    From the FDNY strategic plan ....

    NIMS is rooted in the ICS that is currently part of FDNY training manuals and
    its implementation is required for the City to receive Federal preparedness assistance through grants, contracts and other sources.

    Following City, State and Federal mandates, as well as the best practices developed by the fire service, emergency medical service and other emergency responders, the FDNY has committed to using the ICS as the means of managing incidents and the resources necessary to carry out emergency response. ICS principles dictate that all Officers be sufficiently trained and capable of effectively performing any assigned role at a variety of incidents. However, for complex, large-scale incidents, it is also beneficial to deploy personnel who are highly trained and specialized in the specific functions required of Incident Management, such as operations, planning and logistics.
    Last edited by Batt18; 08-27-2007 at 10:19 AM.

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    Devildog-- You do realize, your great state of Cali did not actually create ICS, don't you? The wildland group took what military leaders have been using for centuries and adapted it to the fire service. While beneficial and certainly useful, it's not a situation where everyone can use the same system.

    NIMS is only an attempt to standardize that system in a fashion where if there's a major incident involving mulitple agencies, they are on the same page. If you look at the basic NIMS package, it's the same system many departments have been using for decades.

    Have you ever been on a fire involving an LODD? Let me tell you from personal experience, things go to hell in a handbag in a hurry, no matter how good of a department you've got. Unless you have been in that situation before, you cannot assume what you'll do. It takes a lot of discipline and training for just that kind of incident to follow procedures and not rush in to do what you can to help. Take that LODD and add 8 more, and you've got a helluva mess. Hell, I would have went to the scene in flip-flops and shorts and drug hose or done what I could with the clothes on my back, just so someone who did have the gear wouldn't have to do the piddly stuff taking them away from rescue ops.

    For you to attempt to come to determinations in regards to this incident before a final investigation is compelete is not only inappropriate and wreckless, but disgusting. The information you keep citing is partial, at best. The recommendations that IC be established, LDH used, etc. are only preliminary recommendations for department improvement, not necessarily what went wrong with this incident.

    How about you lay off these guys until ALL of the information is gathered by people who do so for a living and a final determination has been released. If you want to criticize points of the final investigation, go for it. Until that point, how about you respect Charleston FD and the 9 and quit assuming you have all the info just because you read in the op-ed page and the IAFF rag with what Schaitberger puts in it for his agenda.

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    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    FFFRED; ICS is used by FDNY in both practice and planning and whilst this may not be obviously apparent to you on the fire-ground, it is a major objective of your city's strategic plan to widen the scope and use of ICS.

    The FDNY uses the ICS on a daily basis. Just take a close look at your high-rise procedure that implements all the basics.

    I think Fred's point was that FDNY has been using their form of ICS for years, with their own terminology, language, and methods. In doing so, they have been able to successfully do their job.
    Now, the Feds are mandating that everyone in the country use the same wording and terminology, no matter where you are working. Which is basically instituting change just for the sake of change. Which does not make a lot of sense to me.

    If I'm mistaken Fred, I apologize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    FFFRED; ICS is used by FDNY in both practice and planning and whilst this may not be obviously apparent to you on the fire-ground, it is a major objective of your city's strategic plan to widen the scope and use of ICS.

    The FDNY uses the ICS on a daily basis. Just take a close look at your high-rise procedure that implements all the basics.
    Hey buddy...I know what our polices are and what they aren't...and I know what our strategic plan is and what it isn't. Did you know that much of it is a wish list that never comes to fruition? Or do you believe everything you read from city governments?

    Outside of a few useless changes in terms for about 3 companies at certain fires...the ICS is being used at top levels only...nothing has changed in how we approach or fight a fire. Outside of a few improvements and tweeking...FAST Trucks..etc. the senior men in my house approach fires much like they did when they were probies well over 20 years ago.

    I find it highly Ironic that this system does everything that we have done for decades...did someone copy it to sell books and fill seminar seats??? Who knows. And furthermore if our procedures do exactly what ICS says...why would we ever need to adopt your system.

    If anything the attempts to use this new ICS sillyness has brought us away from the KISS principle and closer to problems with an overly beuracratic and cumbersome system that while practical for drawn out week long forest fires doesn't always lend itself to dynamic quickly changing building fires in urban cities.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- Many of these things boy wonder from the land of fruits and nuts cites at part of ICS we don't do...

    We don't announce command.
    First officer doesn't assume comand at a comand post and stay there.
    We don't offer a comprehensive size up until a chiefs aide gives(to a dispatcher) it usually about 5 mintues into a fire...give or take.
    We refer to our members by company...not some made up overlay title that only complicates issues and serves no purpose other than to create beuracracy....

    The list goes on and on...if we practice ICS...it isn't in any form you've ever seen and certain doesn't meet this brain trust's ideal "national standard".
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-27-2007 at 10:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    I think Fred's point was that FDNY has been using their form of ICS for years, with their own terminology, language, and methods. In doing so, they have been able to successfully do their job.
    Now, the Feds are mandating that everyone in the country use the same wording and terminology, no matter where you are working. Which is basically instituting change just for the sake of change. Which does not make a lot of sense to me.

    If I'm mistaken Fred, I apologize.
    You are echoing what we were saying in the last great debate over NIMS...we do what we do regardless of what "national standards" are...sometimes we meet them, other times we don't. The Strategic plan this guy cites has its purpose and some of it has more to do with satisfing poltical needs than fireground needs....similar to how we have a 2in-2out policy that in practice isn't exactly what Batt18 thinks it is.

    But I'll keep finding amusement at others who tell us what our policies and procedures are and what they aren't.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Now, the Feds are mandating that everyone in the country use the same wording and terminology, no matter where you are working. .
    And therein lies my problem with the whole thing. After 20 years of taking ICS, NIMS or whatever it's called this week, the terminology changes with almost every new class I take on the subject. If a "national" standard is to be implemented, certainly the terminology should remain constant - we have enough other stuff to train on besides what terminology the feds are using for "truck duty" this month.

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    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Fred... Please dont tell me you think with the information provided, you believe the chief ran a good fire scene. This isnt about New York, California, or Georgia. It is making sure that something like this dosent happen again.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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