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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    Fred... Please dont tell me you think with the information provided, you believe the chief ran a good fire scene. This isnt about New York, California, or Georgia. It is making sure that something like this dosent happen again.
    Mikey,

    I never said that...the point I've been making all along is not one person has citied offical CFD policy or procedure for Engines or Ladders on here nor have they cited where if this policy existed they strayed from it.

    I've only seen the preliminary list of issues which deals with more than just this fire and it would appear some certain peoples agendas. Until we see anything offical that states some relevant facts...these proclimations from devil dog are grossly premature and are with little to no merit.

    FTM-PTB


  2. #162
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Hey buddy...I know what our polices are and what they aren't...and I know what our strategic plan is and what it isn't.

    I find it highly Ironic that this system does everything that we have done for decades...did someone copy it to sell books and fill seminar seats??? Who knows. And furthermore if our procedures do exactly what ICS says...why would we ever need to adopt your system.

    FTM-PTB
    Hey 'buddy' ... Firstly FDNY do utilize ICS ok. Like I said, your high-rise procedure is based on the soundest of ICS principles. Secondly, I won't argue with who 'invented' ICS but your comment above suggests that your own system does everything ICS does and you have followed these principles for decades.

    Further FFFred ... I didn't mention anything about '2 in/2 out'.

    Let's just be clear here ... the official reports are not out yet but even so, there are clear lessons to be learned by all.

  3. #163
    MembersZone Subscriber swarmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Mikey,

    I never said that...the point I've been making all along is not one person has citied offical CFD policy or procedure for Engines or Ladders on here nor have they cited where if this policy existed they strayed from it.

    I've only seen the preliminary list of issues which deals with more than just this fire and it would appear some certain peoples agendas. Until we see anything offical that states some relevant facts...these proclimations from devil dog are grossly premature and are with little to no merit.

    FTM-PTB
    FFFred is absolutely correct!!! This is the point that I have been trying to make from the get-go. There has yet to be a report that includes information that is specific to the CFD LODD. WE DON"T KNOW THEIR POLICIES AND WE DON"T KNOW THE FACTS.

    The only report that has been released is the preliminary recommendations. This preliminary report is very general and is aimed at overall CFD dept operations and policies. The Union backs the report and I am backing my Union brothers. By backing I mean... supporting them in THEIR quest. It's not OUR quest, and we were not hired to provide a report. WE DON"T KNOW THEIR POLICIES AND WE DON"T KNOW THE FACTS.

    That being said. If you can learn something to make youself better from reading the articles or listening to the tapes... GREAT. But those of you who act like god's gift to the fire service, and constantly **** on the graves of our fallen brothers... go to HELL!
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

  4. #164
    MembersZone Subscriber swarmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Let's just be clear here ... the official reports are not out yet but even so, there are clear lessons to be learned by all.
    You are correct... there are lessons to be learned by all. The lessons will be learned best when we have ALL of the facts. They will be learned best when we read the reports and learn our own lessons. I certainly don't need any of you telling me what I need to learn!!!
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

  5. #165
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    The only report that has been released is the preliminary recommendations.
    And what is the credibility of those when they add BS like a PIO, seat belt usage, and eliminating 10 codes?
    Even with out the official report, it's evident that none of these had anything to do with the tragedy.
    With that said, I will refrain from posting anymore on the subject until the official report is released. Though I do hope that we can all enjoy the utopia that some federal fire buff enjoys in the eden of kalifornia. Ah, the days of error free firefighting in where you can crucify other's.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Hey 'buddy' ... Firstly FDNY do utilize ICS ok. Like I said, your high-rise procedure is based on the soundest of ICS principles. Secondly, I won't argue with who 'invented' ICS but your comment above suggests that your own system does everything ICS does and you have followed these principles for decades.

    Further FFFred ... I didn't mention anything about '2 in/2 out'.

    Let's just be clear here ... the official reports are not out yet but even so, there are clear lessons to be learned by all.

    Our high-rise procedures are based on fighting fires in High-rise buildings...not on ICS principles or anything else. They've been developed over decades...and long before ICS came along. My point is just because someone plagerized our operational procedures and call them by a different name and essentially define it's structure with new superfoulous terms doesn't mean we use ICS. I formerly worked in a dept that was within a county where every dept used ICS in a form you are most familiar with I'm sure. I know what it is suppose to run like and we don't even begin to come close to it on the fireground...perhaps at staff Chief meetings downtown or at large complex week long operations (such as this g*ddamned Bank building fire downtown) but not at our typical fires.

    Which came first the chicken or the egg? Did Firescope or AB plagiarize the Older and wiser East Coast departments to propell his career and pad his wallet? Or did we somehow magicly decades before the creation of this ICS predict what these wise old suburban chiefs would come up with and place that in our procedures?

    The vast majority of our procedures pre-date any substancial FDNY involvement in ICS...look at the writings of Chief Dunn or any of our other Chiefs, officers or members...for the most part one could conduct a drill on those writtings from Fire Engineering from the 80s or WNYF or even before and not have to change any of the information contained within.

    My point is guy Devildog is claiming that these men's deaths are attributible to not following any number of "national standards" or ICS rules and thus the justification for the complete overhaul of the Charleston FD....my Dept doesn't jump through most of those amature football game rules and concepts and neither do a few others on here...Chicago notably. Which begs of the question...do we need a complete overhaul because we don't follow his arbitrary rules made up by some suburban Chiefs, so that they could bring order to undisiplined and poorly commanded companies years ago at grass fires? Does Chicago, Boston...etc...who all use predetermined assigments and still refer to companies as who they are and not what they are technically doing at that very moment....need this overhaul as well?

    If we don't need an overhaul based on his assertions I can't see how one could make the case for CFD to do so as well. Their might be justification for an overhaul...however that needs to be based on fact and I've yet to see that in print anywhere.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- the 2in-2out was an example that what you may read isn't what it really is in reality and you would have no clue otherwise. I know what our policy and procedures are based on...you clearly don't.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-27-2007 at 01:51 PM.

  7. #167
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Our high-rise procedures are based on fighting fires in High-rise buildings...not on ICS principles or anything else. They've been developed over decades...and long before ICS came along.

    PS- the 2in-2out was an example that what you may read isn't what it really is in reality and you would have no clue otherwise. I know what our policy and procedures are based on...you clearly don't.
    Well FFFRED maybe you should take a look back at your SOPs in the 1970s/80s/90s etc because there is clear language and terminology that develops throughout that is mirrored by the ICS structure. Command posts; Staging; etc etc. I won't argue which came first ok but my point is, your procedures in High-rise specific mirror ICS. Any high-rise SOP should have the basics of effective incident management (ICS) incorporated within it and FDNY does.

    You talk of other inner city departments such as Chicago and Boston who, like FDNY, don't need to follow such national 'standards' as ICS, and yet Chicago were publicly slammed for their failings in ICS during a high-rise tragedy back in 2003 that led to the deaths of several occupants.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Fact are facts. The Command system was a huge problem at this fire. CFD guys tell you so. Expert panel tells you. IAFF tells you. I am telling you.
    One more time.... What department do you work for? What city or municipality do you protect? What kind of structures make up your still district? How many runs does your company run? Fire and ems or just fire?

    Why can't you just answer these simple questions?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  9. #169
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    d dog --- my Grandmother use to say " before you criticize others -- make sure your own front porch is swept. " I bet your little engine company would have a few flaws if put under the microscope. Espically if they encountered a situation such as Charleston faced. And by the way , I have fought fires all over the country including your little utopia, and ICS is not a "cure all/ end all"
    In fact I have seen it used as an excuse for every thing from laziness to outright cowardness.
    ICS should not be used as a subsuitite for clear thinking and sound judgment.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Well FFFRED maybe you should take a look back at your SOPs in the 1970s/80s/90s etc because there is clear language and terminology that develops throughout that is mirrored by the ICS structure. Command posts; Staging; etc etc. I won't argue which came first ok but my point is, your procedures in High-rise specific mirror ICS. Any high-rise SOP should have the basics of effective incident management (ICS) incorporated within it and FDNY does.
    I have...we have a dept library where just about everything can be researched...many of our members going back to the begining of profesional firefighting have written books and articles on this very subject matter. I've read many of these offerings...how many have you read?

    Do our proceedures mirror ICS...or does ICS mirrior us? We've had highrises and highrise procedures for longer than ICS has been around....figure that one out. Did the Chicken come before the egg? Who plagerized whom?

    You talk of other inner city departments such as Chicago and Boston who, like FDNY, don't need to follow such national 'standards' as ICS, and yet Chicago were publicly slammed for their failings in ICS during a high-rise tragedy back in 2003 that led to the deaths of several occupants.
    As I said...I could hold your little burb dept up to our standards and you would fail to meet most if not all of them. Some people out west plagerized procedures and policies from other Departments, add new material and levels of beuracracy that they feel is neccessary to keep tabs on their poorly disiplined units and then hold others accountable to those standards.

    This topic isn't about Chicago or Boston. The point was Devildog claims that because among other things they didnt' meet these silly paternalistic rules that his FD (still not sure which one that is) has that this is why these men died and what needs to change...and all without knowing one policy or procedure employed by the CFD and if those policies were even followed.

    Are you claiming as Devil dog is among other things that failure to use function/assingment desinations on the radio in lieu company assignments cost those peoples lives in Chicago and the 9 brothers in Charleston?

    FTM-PTB

  11. #171
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    FFFRED - Answers in bold text ....

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I have...we have a dept library where just about everything can be researched...many of our members going back to the begining of profesional firefighting have written books and articles on this very subject matter. I've read many of these offerings...how many have you read?

    Yes I have read a lot of books FFFred and studied your SOPs back to the 1970s.

    Do our proceedures mirror ICS...or does ICS mirrior us? We've had highrises and highrise procedures for longer than ICS has been around....figure that one out. Did the Chicken come before the egg? Who plagerized whom?

    That's another debate and a good one! Point is, both mirror each other and as your earlier quotes suggest, you agree with the principles of a structured incident command.

    As I said...I could hold your little burb dept ??? up to our standards and you would fail to meet most if not all of them. Some people out west plagerized procedures and policies from other Departments, add new material and levels of beuracracy that they feel is neccessary to keep tabs on their poorly disiplined units and then hold others accountable to those standards.

    This topic isn't about Chicago or Boston. The point was Devildog claims that because among other things they didnt' meet these silly paternalistic rules that his FD (still not sure which one that is) has that this is why these men died and what needs to change...and all without knowing one policy or procedure employed by the CFD and if those policies were even followed.

    Are you claiming as Devil dog is among other things that failure to use function/assingment desinations on the radio in lieu company assignments cost those peoples lives in Chicago and the 9 brothers in Charleston?

    FFFred I have seen you post here before condemning 'micro managed firegrounds'. That's what this was in Charleston ... a 'micro managed Fire'.

    FTM-PTB

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    and yet Chicago were publicly slammed for their failings in ICS during a high-rise tragedy back in 2003 that led to the deaths of several occupants.
    Whats your point? I know what caused the problem at 69 W. Washington and it had nothing to do with ics. Do you? Don't think you know the answer because i gaurantee you will be wrong. The problem was not with our high rise order...
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  13. #173
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Whats your point? I know what caused the problem at 69 W. Washington and it had nothing to do with ics. Do you? Don't think you know the answer because i gaurantee you will be wrong. The problem was not with our high rise order...
    My point to Fred was to demonstrate how important ICS is on the fireground and that there have been breakdowns in ICS prior to Charleston that have created problems. Don't take offense or become defensive here Chicago because I have the greatest respect for Chicago FD and the ability of its firefighters, but the 2003 fire was a typical example of ICS failures (amongst others) (and we all have them)!.

    Inadequate incident command procedures that did not allow for effective fire ground management and poor allocation of resources to address life safety demands
    (Witt Report).

  14. #174
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    You believe what you want about that fire and I'll stick with what I know.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    You believe what you want about that fire and I'll stick with what I know.
    Not only do these guys have all the answers about what presumably needs to be fixed in Charleston...but in Chicago as well! I can't wait until these guys waving the ICS flags come second guessing us again!

    FTM-PTB

  16. #176
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    You believe what you want about that fire and I'll stick with what I know.
    Brother please! I do know more than you about that fire ok ... it's not what I believe ... it's what I know. ICS failings were presented as a contributory factor in the occupants deaths.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Brother please! I do know more than you about that fire ok ... it's not what I believe ... it's what I know. ICS failings were presented as a contributory factor in the occupants deaths.
    Care to share to us uneducated folk, so we can make the proper ICS changes so we dont kill anyone else?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  18. #178
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Care to share to us uneducated folk, so we can make the proper ICS changes so we dont kill anyone else?
    Brother you are not uneducated, you are part of one the very finest FD's in the world. What would make you a better part of that organization would be to accept that nothing is foolproof. No procedure; no tactical approach; no nozzle and no helmet is perfect!

    We just need to acknowledge our failings and make every effort to reduce or prevent them in future. You know something? The worst thing a firefighter can EVER be is nonchalant. I see an awful lot of nonchalance displayed throughout comments and attitudes in the threads on this forum, over the years.

    Stay safe ...

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Brother please! I do know more than you about that fire ok ... it's not what I believe ... it's what I know.
    And how is that? And if you truly know that much about it, then you know those who are to blame and that it had nothing to do with our high rise ops plan. If you say you know more than everyone else about 69 washington because you read the witt report (did you read all 1200 pages?) - you are sadly mistaken.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 08-27-2007 at 05:41 PM.
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  20. #180
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    And how is that? And if you truly know that much about it, then you know those who are to blame and that it had nothing to do with our high rise ops plan. If you say you know more than everyone else about 69 washington because you read the witt report (did you read all 1200 pages?) - you are sadly mistaken.
    Why was your high-rise plan updated then in light of what happened at this fire? In fact it went from 35 pages to 55 pages as a direct result.
    Last edited by Batt18; 08-27-2007 at 06:02 PM.

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