1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Surely even you can appreciate Fred that there are usually several contributory factors in every LODD - ICS might be just one of them; nobody is suggesting that a lack of ICS at Charleston caused the brothers deaths - but it might have contributed
    There are at least a few "nobody's" who suggested such on here and I imagine a large number who have never made their thoughts publicly known...or at least in these forums.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    So what do you know about that fire SP? Do you really think a four year old news report is 'proof'?! Come to this debate with facts; or opinions based on well sourced information; or personal experience! Otherwise don't waste forum space!
    Ok ******bag, have it your way. You claimed superior knowledge of this particular fire so I threw out a few quick questions and you didn't have a clue. By the way, the "proof" would be the Office of Fire Investigation report and conclusion, not a "four year old news report". What "facts or personal experience" are you using?

    Where do you work? There has been a rash of posters lately who like to toss BS around from behind the screen but without giving any info out about where they are from. Batt18, devildog4, HotTrotter - What department are you guys on?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Question. If there is no incident command system in place then how can there be any control? Given the lack of control, you then have chaos. I listened to the tapes of the Charleston fire, I heard chaos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Ok ******bag, have it your way. You claimed superior knowledge of this particular fire so I threw out a few quick questions and you didn't have a clue. By the way, the "proof" would be the Office of Fire Investigation report and conclusion, not a "four year old news report". What "facts or personal experience" are you using?

    Where do you work? There has been a rash of posters lately who like to toss BS around from behind the screen but without giving any info out about where they are from. Batt18, devildog4, HotTrotter - What department are you guys on?
    Chicago I didn't mean to touch a nerve with you. I have stated that I have much respect for you and your department. When I posted to FFFred an example of a fire where ICS failings contributed to on-scene fatalities you stated you knew more about that particular fire than me and that I should get my facts straight.

    My knowledge of this fire is not limited to Witt or news reports.

    I see a debate here that has gone the same way so many other debates have gone in the past. I accept fully that the Charleston fire is being investigated and we must wait for all the facts to emerge before we can learn and implement updates to our own procedures where necessary.

    However, there are recommendations up for discussion. There are horrendous tapes out there to listen to if you will. It is acceptable to many to try and see if there are any lessons to be learned at this early stage that might improve their own situation. Some of the tapes, videos and images might present a false representation and we must be careful not to jump to conclusions. However, there are obvious lessons to be learned even at this stage.

    My references to ICS are simply to clarify some misunderstandings that we should all be (probably are to some extent) implementing the basic functions of command and control. From here we need to establish clear lines of communication to insure our procedure is able to work. Simply by talking about these things may help someone, somewhere, grasp essential features that might save lives.

    It is disrespectful to sling mud and make false assumptions. However, where issues are clear then it is right to debate at this stage how we can advance our own understanding of matters related.
    Last edited by Batt18; 09-13-2007 at 06:13 AM.

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    Thumbs down Go Away

    Look HotTrojanBattTrotterHorse18 is back!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Question. If there is no incident command system in place then how can there be any control? Given the lack of control, you then have chaos. I listened to the tapes of the Charleston fire, I heard chaos.
    What are their fire ground command procedures?

    I'm guessing we will hear nothing but crickets from your corner but I had to ask the question.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    What are their fire ground command procedures?

    I'm guessing we will hear nothing but crickets from your corner but I had to ask the question.

    FTM-PTB
    I don't know. All that I do know is that the expert panel that was brought in recommended they implement the ICS. One can conclude that based on that recommendation their current system is inadequate. Truth be known, I'm listening to the experts who have been to CFD and have made recommendations.

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    Say Fred,they make a spray for that. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    I don't know.
    That sums up everything about you and your contribution to this forum.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    The fact is, I know a lot about that fire and if you did too you would know that the gasoline 'theory' has been countered by a later report. My knowledge of this fire is not limited to Witt or news reports.
    Really? Please post a link to the news that the Chicago Fire Department Office of Fire Investigation changed their findings and conclusions about their their investigation into the 69 W. Washington fire. You won't find that because it doesn't exist.
    Brother please! I do know more than you about that fire ok ... it's not what I believe ... it's what I know. ICS failings were presented as a contributory factor in the occupants deaths.
    Another of your posts claiming to know exactly what went on.
    Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    There was no proof of gasoline presented, perhaps thats why?
    This was your snappy answer to my question. You had never even heard of the gasoline being there before. Even a casual follower of this fire would remember that controversial point. You didn't know about it. Then you did some searching on the internet and became an expert. So I have to assume you are talking about the disagreement between OFI and Bomb and Arson. Is that it? Whatever. Like I said, there was alot more to this fire than you will ever find with your ten minute google searches. You say your knowledge is not limited to the witt report or the news reports? Then you must know many of the personalities involved, ff's and chiefs, or be good friends with them - otherwise you are just another internet genius who thinks that google gives him insight.

    Batt18, devildog4, HotTrotter - where do you guys work? What city do you cover? Nitwits.....
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    Batt18, devildog4, HotTrotter - where do you guys work? What city do you cover? Nitwits.....
    That's the $64,000 question of the day!

    This guy claims to know my and your depts better than we do ourselves...makes me wonder who he is or who he thinks he is.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Really? Please post a link to the news that the Chicago Fire Department Office of Fire Investigation changed their findings and conclusions about their their investigation into the 69 W. Washington fire. You won't find that because it doesn't exist.
    Another of your posts claiming to know exactly what went on.
    This was your snappy answer to my question. You had never even heard of the gasoline being there before. Even a casual follower of this fire would remember that controversial point. You didn't know about it. Then you did some searching on the internet and became an expert. So I have to assume you are talking about the disagreement between OFI and Bomb and Arson. Is that it? Whatever. Like I said, there was alot more to this fire than you will ever find with your ten minute google searches. You say your knowledge is not limited to the witt report or the news reports? Then you must know many of the personalities involved, ff's and chiefs, or be good friends with them - otherwise you are just another internet genius who thinks that google gives him insight.

    Batt18, devildog4, HotTrotter - where do you guys work? What city do you cover? Nitwits.....
    I have tried to be polite and reasonable with you.

    OK answer some questions yourself about this fire ... or are you just a fifteen year old kid with a new laptop, pretending to be a big city firefighter like his dad?!

    Which authority submitted the gasoline samples?
    Give me the names of the first five officers in command?
    Who was the Plans Chief at this incident and what is his assignment now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    That's the $64,000 question of the day!

    This guy claims to know my and your depts better than we do ourselves...makes me wonder who he is or who he thinks he is.

    FTM-PTB
    And where did I claim that Fred? The simple fact is I come here to debate occasionally. Is that ok with you? If I have good knowledge of your departmental structures does that make me a criminal or something? Maybe I worked with you, or more likely I worked with your dad if he served.

    Lighten up and get on with the debate!

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    C'mon Chicago? You've been on thread 20 minutes! Can you answer or not?

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    [QUOTE=devildog4;855497]
    Ya know, ya missed my point AGAIN! My first point was that the ICS system is taken very seriously here on the Westcoast. Invented here. Every dept must know and practice it. I am so glad to hear that YOUR dept practices it (and national standards). Too bad CFD does not.
    And are you implying that it is not beyond the bounds of Kalifornia? Can you swear under oath that every single, solitary fire department on the West Coast practices the ICS system, and that because of that what happened in Charleston will never, ever happen on the west coast. Also if you go to Charleston.net and read the various local articles concerning this fire, there is one that mentions Chief Thomas and the other members of the Charleston Fire Department having certificates showing they had completed the FEMA online NIMS courses, but they are slammed for the courses being too easy and easy to cheat on. I guess they can't win for losing: first you get slammed for not having ICS training, and when you show proof of it it's not good enough. And I could give a rat's backside whether what my departments do makes you glad or not; I'm not in the business of pleasing you, I'm in the business of protecting my personnel and citizens. And the last part about "too bad the CFD does not" is the problem I have with you: you're not slamming Chief Thomas, you're slamming the entire department, of which I still include the fallen brothers as being part of, and for that you can screw yourself. They don't need a self-important jerk like yourself to tell them things went wrong, they live it every day, and things are trying to be made better. I have never said that there were not problems with the way things went, I have a problem with someone like you that knows nothing about the department or what actually happened wagging his finger and spouting his blowhole and crowing about the moral superiority of their own department. BTW, which department was that again? I don't believe you or Batt hae answered Fred or Chicago on that one yet...

    With your extensive wildland experience, you more than others should be all too familiar with the ICS system and it's importance. After you listened to the tape, you, more than others, should have heard and agree with "as you listen you will hear this incident go into total chaos with no intial set up of IC, RIC, Accountablity, Interior Ops, Staging, etc, etc" . If I am wrong, I will publicly apologize.
    Did you ever hear the word command or IC, or just Chief? It is a function, not a rank.
    Did you ever hear the word RIC or RIT? Hear anything about a crew staging at the door ready to go?
    Did you ever hear the word vent or ventilation? Hear (if it was pre-assigned) that it was done?
    Did you ever hear interior group or sector? I heard crews by engine number.
    You won't hear the word IC or Command or Chief at my department either, because we all know that the officer of the first in engine is the IC until the Deputy Chief arrives on location, at which time command is transferred. RIT is pre-assigned so it doesn't have to be announced. Gee, we also use engine numbers for assignments..I guess the Kalifornia fire gods are going to damn us to hell.

    I really don't like to keep posting on this topic, but as long as you continue to defend an archaic, antiquated, behind-the-times, unsafe system that may have contributed to this tragic loss, I will continue to try and educate you and others.
    I am not defending any system, archaic or not. I am defending the good name of 9 men who gave their lives doing the best they could, as well as the names of the rest of their department who has to carry on from the likes of you that like to cast stones based on incomplete information, hearsay, and radio traffic that may not tell the whole story ( how do you know what orders were given verbally that did not cross the airwaves?). I do not know what CFD's procedures are and neither do you. Can you say with 100% certainty that this fire, outside of the fact that 9 men died, is how all Charleston fires went? If it was so bad before this, how come we have not had anyone on here prior to this complaining about it? Two of the men who died did their 30 years, retired, and then asked to come back: if this department was so screwed up, why would they have done that? I don't know why, and neither do you. The only thing this department needs from those of us on the outside is thoughts and prayers ( although I know that is illegal where you are from ) ; let them grieve, let them find their own answers, fix their own problems, and do it with out having to hear self-righteous braying from the likes of you.

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    For those of you who have not heard these tapes here is the web link to listen to them. Remember, we are in a dangerous profession and listening to these audios, I AM PROUD TO BE A FIREFIGHTER IN THIS GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA which takes the incident command sysytem very seriously!

    As you listen you will hear this incident go into total chaos with no intial set up of IC, RIC, Accountablity, Interior Ops, Staging, etc, etc (kinda reminds me of Hanckinsack NJ Incident a few years back).

    Anyways, they were emotionally draining on me but I learned alot from listening to them. Keep those lost in this tragic incident in your thoughts and remember how important "family" is to all of us!!!
    This is your fourth post on the matter, who side tracked the thread?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Knight dude:
    I'm still not your "dude", Spicolli

    OK, I don’t want to start an East coast vs. West coast thing regarding command systems.
    Then why the "GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA" comment then?


    Let’s see what the final investigation reveals, and hope we all can learn from that
    If that's your position, why did you start this thread in the first place? the final investigation is not complete yet.

    I started this post to ask people what they thought of the recommendations. You, FFFRED and ChicagoFF turned that into bashing the IAFF, calling Chief Brunacini a plagiarizer and attacking the members of the panel and forum.
    Show me where I ever mention the IAFF, Chief Brunacini, or attack the members of the panel. As far as the forum I called you a ******bag, but that is not an attack, that's my opinion of you as a person. You call me dude, I call you ******...fair is fair.


    Why “Changes in water supply standard operating procedures”? As I indicated earlier, a single 2 1/2" supply line is not sufficient for a truck operation. In fact I don’t think I heard anyone say anything about catching a hydrant or that they laid out their own supply line until maybe 5 or 6 engines/trucks were on scene.
    Can you tell whether or not St Andrews FD supplied aerial ops with their 4"? Do you even know who the St Andrews FD is? Can you state with 100% certainty that a hydrant was not caught before "5 or 6 engines/trucks"? Nope, didn't think so.

    The question I have for you is if your department does things so perfectly, you're supposedly not going to debate what other departments do or don't do, then why does what the Charleston Fire Department do or don't do matter to you? Did you come to the memorial service? Can you even point to where Charleston is on a map? The department is trying to learn and improve, yet you still hammer them. You claim to not slam them, yet you throw out terms, like "incompetent" and "chaos"; tell me , do you think the FDNY was "incompetent" on 9/11? Can you tell me that there would not be "chaos" on scene if your department had 9 missing? How about all the departments that do the things in the recommendations, yet still suffer LODD's? And no I'm not saying the reccomendations are not needed, I'm saying they do not annoint one with immortality like you seem to think they do. Oh, and as far as you grouping me with FFFred and ChicagoFF I am no where near worthy, but I am honored to be placed in their esteemed company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    I will also always remember the Chief running around, up and down ladders without any PPE. Does that make me a jerk for bringing it up?
    Yes it does, because until you're placed in the same position you can't say what you yourself would do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    And where did I claim that Fred? The simple fact is I come here to debate occasionally. Is that ok with you? If I have good knowledge of your departmental structures does that make me a criminal or something? Maybe I worked with you, or more likely I worked with your dad if he served.
    Lighten up and get on with the debate!

    Couldn't stay away could you Mr Grimwood?
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    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
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    Knight Dude, what is it going to take before you “get it”?

    As far as Hackensack, it is not what I myself would have done under the same circumstances, it is what that Chief did then. Under no circumstance should any FF (irregardless of rank) climb a ladder placed on the roof of a burning building wearing his station work uniform. Period.

    If you feel it is OK, under ANY circumstance, then maybe you should take those toilet plungers off your collar (didn’t you say you were a Capt?) and go back to rookie school to learn about wearing proper PPE.

    I would have to go back and look at the posts to see who exactly posted what comment. If I am wrong about what you posted I apologize here and now. Those comments were made and have no place here.

    I think I heard St. Andrews laying a line. Weren’t they about the 6th or 7th truck in? I heard the CFD Truck operator say he only had a single 2 ˝” supply line. Maybe you missed that part?

    And if St. Andrews laid a line, why the recommendation to “change water supply standard operating procedures”? Maybe, just maybe, you will find that the first 3 or 4 incoming units did not establish their own water supply? Maybe not using LDH was an issue?

    Can YOU state with 100% certainty that a hydrant WAS caught before 5 or 6engines/trucks arrived? Which unit laid the first supply line and what was their order of arrival? Nope, didn't think so. I can’t. I wasn’t there. I don’t know. Of course, we will have to wait until the final report. I can only go by the recommendations and what I heard on the tape.

    I started the thread to comment on the preliminary investigation, because I thought the results (after what, 4 days?) spoke for themselves.

    ------------------ this is what was posted, before deletion.


    Can YOU state with 100% certainty that a hydrant WAS caught before 5 or 6engines/trucks arrived? Which unit laid the first supply line and what was their order of arrival? Nope, didn't think so. I can’t. I wasn’t there. I don’t know.
    and yet you are more than happy to claim this was a problem there.

    I started the thread to comment on the preliminary investigation, because I thought the results (after what, 4 days?) spoke for themselves.
    and that's the problem. In only 4 days, what could they have actually learned of policies/procedures/SOP's and actual operations. And they come up with "seat belt usage", "PIO", "no 10 codes".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
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    What's the matter? You finally figure out you were starting to talk out of both sides of your mouth so you had to delete the evidence? To answer your quesions as best I can remeber them before you deleted them:

    1. I'm still not your "dude"...I guess all that weed plays heck on the short term memory, huh?

    2. Under normal circumstances no I would never advocate a firefighter of any rank climbing a ladder on a burning building, but then again I have never experienced the shock of being at a fire where multiple numbers of my men were lost and what I'm sure that does to affect rational thinking...have you? As far as my attitude towards PPE, I authored our SOPs on eye protection and care, maintenance, and inspection of turnout gear...so what do you think? Oh, and by the way, they're speaking trumpets not toilet plungers, and they're the traditional symbol of a fire service officer. I wear two at the career job and three at the vollie gig, thanks for asking. I guess you'd have to be a real firefighter to know what they were.

    3. Still waiting for you to show me where I mentioned the IAFF, Chief Brunacini.

    4. What does a recommendation from the panel regarding seatbelts use have to do with the Sofa Super Store fire?

    5. Nope, I don't know when St. Andrews laid a line or what size it was, and NEITHER DO YOU, which was my point: you are basing your opinions based on tapes that are not authenticated as being complete, nor do you know what was or wasn't done that wasn't broadcast over the radio.

    6. Still waiting to hear what you have to say about departments that do the things that are listed in the recommendations and still have suffered LODDs. Want to apply that "incompetent" and "chaos" tag to any other departments that have suffered losses?

    7. Kind of got caught by that "Great State of California" comment, didn't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    ------------------ this is what was posted, before deletion.

    Thanks, Bones. I apparently was typing as you posted this; had I known I would have waited so I wouldn't have had to try and reply from memory, LOL

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