1. #1
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    Default Is this what it looks like??? Duluth MN

    taken from the job announcement-

    ORAL PERFORMANCE TEST: The top thirty-five (35) applicants with the highest passing Written Test scores will be invited to participate in the Oral/Performance Test. Applicants eligible for veterans’ preference points and underrepresented class participants who pass the written exam will also be invited to participate...


    Who decides who is "underrepresented" Is this really what it sounds like?

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    ayup. that's what it looks like...

    -Damien

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    This is upsetting. They should take a look at the scores, and pick who gets the job. Not the names, races, sexes, etc. That way you pick the best people for the job, unaffected by the things mentioned above. That way it's fair and square.
    Last edited by st42stephenAFT; 08-21-2007 at 02:15 PM.

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    Tell me again about how people who make it through a career department's hiring process are an elite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    Tell me again about how people who make it through a career department's hiring process are an elite.
    I will ask you the same question of some volunteer departments....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    I will ask you the same question of some volunteer departments....
    Some volly houses can only work with what they are given. Some run off their applicants with the good ol boy sh*t. When a career dept passes up qualified applicants due to their skin color..........
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    Isn't this happening around the county, Fdny, Denver and others. Lets dumb down the tests, written and physicials so we can have a more diverse department. Lets form two lists, the white males and all others. The governments and special interest groups are the ones pushing these things. SOCIETY has gone that way, we just have to except the fact. It is not like we have large numbers of women and other groups testing up here. They don't call it the great WHITE north because of the snow we get. I am not saying it is right, but it does give the city the oportunity to say we tried when the questions fly.
    Be SAFE!!! Go home when your shift is done and enjoy life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    Tell me again about how people who make it through a career department's hiring process are an elite.
    well, if your not under-represented and you beat everybody when the odds are against you...

    but that is not the point of this, I'm sure you can find many other places argue that...

    I was just blown away, they don't beat around the bush at all, just come right out and say it! How can they get away with that and when does it become discrimination against everybody else?

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    How come no one is complaining about the veteran's preference points?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuelFire View Post
    How come no one is complaining about the veteran's preference points?
    Well, off the top of my head, there's this little thing about earning it through service to your country. Aside from that aspect, the fire service is a paramilitary organization. Like the armed forces, we rely on discipline, order, courage, devotion to duty, etc to succeed. Further, former members of the services are likely to be in reasonably good physical condition and have already proven that they can successfully complete the type intensive training they will encounter in rookie school. To boil it all down, they're the perfect candidate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plisken View Post
    Isn't this happening around the county, Fdny, Denver and others. Lets dumb down the tests, written and physicials so we can have a more diverse department. Lets form two lists, the white males and all others. The governments and special interest groups are the ones pushing these things. SOCIETY has gone that way, we just have to except the fact. It is not like we have large numbers of women and other groups testing up here. They don't call it the great WHITE north because of the snow we get. I am not saying it is right, but it does give the city the oportunity to say we tried when the questions fly.
    I can't help but wonder if some of this same line of thinking you are speaking of led in part to the death of that recruit in Baltimore?

    Oh wait that wouldn't be PC to ask such questions because if they have the desire and heart it is ok to let the "under-represented" skate through.

    God help this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plisken View Post
    Isn't this happening around the county, Fdny, Denver and others. Lets dumb down the tests, written and physicials so we can have a more diverse department. Lets form two lists, the white males and all others. The governments and special interest groups are the ones pushing these things. SOCIETY has gone that way, we just have to except the fact. It is not like we have large numbers of women and other groups testing up here. They don't call it the great WHITE north because of the snow we get. I am not saying it is right, but it does give the city the oportunity to say we tried when the questions fly.

    So they "dumb" it down to get more minority applicants (women, blacks, one armed midget transvestites, etc..) to pass right? Wouldn't more AHEM of the "Evil" white males also pass, therefore pushing the minorities even further down the list?
    "If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuelFire View Post
    How come no one is complaining about the veteran's preference points?

    There is a difference between somebody having "bonus points" earned by their dedication, commitment, courage and service in the military, and somebody who is accepted over others who have outperformed them just because their skin is darker than the others', or different gender/religion or whatever. That sounds a whole lot like the discrimination we as a country have fought to overcome.

    I can picture the scene now. Firefighter funeral. The chief walks to the widow, and says "We did everything we could to save your husband. I know it probably would have helped to have him backed up with someone capable of the job, but you know, that _(insert minority status here)_____ is a little darker skin than most, so we have to include them.

    Black/white/hispanic/women/alien I don't care who I partner with, as long as they are capable of the job, just as I am expected to do for them.

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    I received veteran points when I got hired. I passed over two people who did better on the written test.

    I do not believe in getting preference points for just being a veteran. Points for a combat veteran or a veteran that was drafted, I would agree to but not for anything else.

    We have some veterans on the fire department who are just like trotter, air wasters.

    Some of the characteristics that EFD stated are not found in all veterans and they are found in some non-veterans.

    So let's have a fair hiring system where preference is given to those most qualified and forget special treatment for any group.
    Last edited by SamuelFire; 08-22-2007 at 05:14 PM.

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    I can go either way on the vet points. But, what it boils down to is this: If the department thinks that is worth pursuing then add the points. If your dept wants to put points in for combat because they think that cuts the mustard, then I say go ahead.
    But selection processes are by nature and definition DISCRIMINATORY. People get so caught up in what they think is "fair" and if they got cheated out of a job. Think about it. If you can't make the selection process, what makes you think you'd be happy in that job if you don't have what they are looking for? I say look for the places that want what you got. Heck, if they give points for mongoloid midgets, there are probably already a lot in there and probably promoted faster than everyone else to boot. Why go there seeking a job if you are 6'5" and have no defects?
    But seriously, all boards discriminate. They have to. They are looking for a few among many. Selection criteria with ANY positive aspects generally get positive results:clear criminal history, vet status, education, prior experience, IQ above room temp, pulse, etc. Selection criteria with arbitrary or negative aspects get negative results: skin color, sexual disorientation, economic status, religion, even residency.
    When you get someone who fits every "underrepresented class", you generally get a TIME BOMB that costs you millions of dollars. Someday, city councils everywhere will figure that out.
    transplant
    Last edited by transplant; 08-22-2007 at 06:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuelFire View Post
    I received veteran points when I got hired. I passed over two people who did better on the written test.
    I do not believe in getting preference points for just being a veteran. Points for a combat veteran or a veteran that was drafted, I would agree to but not for anything else.
    We have some veterans on the fire department who are just like trotter, air wasters.
    Some of the characteristics that EFD stated are not found in all veterans and they are found in some non-veterans.
    So let's have a fair hiring system where preference is given to those most qualified and forget special treatment for any group.

    I have to agree with the others regarding veterans preference. Although I can agree with your sentiment regarding "air wasters" and the military also has their share of knobs, the difference is at least they served something a bit more than themselves.

    Regardless if their time was combat or stateside, peacetime or war, every person in the military knew the chain of command, attention to detail, following orders, and knowing to keep their mouth shut or it was shut for them. Either way military folks sacrificed something, be it lives, time, money, family, or career and are at least entitled to 5 extra points. That is much more sacrifice than just being a certain minority group or gender. You were not handed anything when in the military, everything earned was worked for, unlike "protected classes" thinking they should have careers given to them.
    Last edited by jccrabby3084; 08-22-2007 at 09:11 PM.

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    As a combat veteran, I say that vets points should only be given to an applicant if they are virtually dead even in all other categories. Just because I chose to go to the military, and this other guy decided to go to college, he should not be punished. Yes I served my country, but it was by choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by n2dafyre View Post
    As a combat veteran, I say that vets points should only be given to an applicant if they are virtually dead even in all other categories. Just because I chose to go to the military, and this other guy decided to go to college, he should not be punished. Yes I served my country, but it was by choice.
    How is that being punished?
    The guy going to college had the same choice to go military or the route they did. However, the guy in college had much more freedom and didn't make the same sacrifices as someone in the military. Despite the values of the college student, chances are they didn't work in a chain of command or have the same type of discipline as one in the military. One of the biggest differences is those that served tend to be more grown up and mature vs those going to college. In the military you had to be depended upon as well as depend on others. College is up to ones own effort.

    I would never feel bad about using veterans points. Many other people could have made the same sacrifices to get the points, they chose not to.

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