1. #1
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    Default Anybody else sickened by the loss of life lately?

    6.
    6 LODDs on the Front page of FH.com.
    wow.
    I really don't know what to say. It seems like, once again, cardiovascular fitness hits the emergency services hard again.
    This is not a slight, or attack on any of the Brothers we have lost, but a lesson learned for us, to get a physical, get in shape (round is NOT a shape) and watch out for each other.
    Drive safely on the way to the call, wear your seatbelt!
    Don't let the call become YOUR emergency.
    Lets stay safe out there guys, I don't want to see any more Brothers up there.
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
    Member, IACOJ.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-DTRT-RFB-KTF
    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

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    Keep in mind that while the 2 FDNY brothers died of a cardiovascular event, it was induced by respitory arrest, leading to cardiac arrest. It wasn't because they didn't take care of themselves (going off of pictures on that one)
    The good thing about this job is that we have done so much, with so little, for so long that we can do everything with nothing...... which is what is wrong with this job.
    KTF | DTRT

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyS View Post
    Keep in mind that while the 2 FDNY brothers died of a cardiovascular event, it was induced by respitory arrest, leading to cardiac arrest. It wasn't because they didn't take care of themselves (going off of pictures on that one)
    Matty;
    the cardio was meant for the Brothers that passed due to MIs, and CVAs. I have kept abreast of the prelim. cause of death for our FDNY Brothers.
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
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    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

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    A big hell yea on that one. I have been sickened by the loss of life for some time now. Of course when I speak of the same mistakes being made over and over I get pounced upon. There was another thread on this very topic sometime back started by Paul Grimwood. His premise was that we need to start following national standards. I would take it a step further and say that we also need to stay up on current trends in building construction and fire fighting techniques. As for the heart attacks, I believe a I saw at least one case where the guy had the attack a couple of hours after a work out. I believe he was 36. I also have a slight problem with including heart attacks. Why not also include cancer, or stroke, or numerous other health problems as well? Some of the most fit people in the world have died of heart attack. Hank Gathers, the lineman from Minnesota, and Jim Fix come to mind right off the top. And I'm sure if I looked I could find many more athletes who have had heart attacks. Probably staying in shape helps prevent heart attacks, but who has time for that? The one thing that really can be prevented are the accidents. Guys need to slow down, take a deep breath, and think. To many get all bug eyed and freaked out and rush around like chickens with the heads cut off. I went to an extrication competition in a neighboring county one time. One of the rules was that you didn't run, you walked. It was really interesting to watch, and they looked very professional. calm, and composed. Of course there were no screaming and crying victims involved either.

    And I won't even comment on how if you stay out of the accident in the first place then you don't really need the seat belt.

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    Yes, there is an unsettling amount of firefighter deaths. However, since I have not done my own analysis, if I had to guess the majority of deaths this year come from collisions/MVC’s. Even though it is commonly thought that heart attacks are the #1 killer of firefighters, it seems that MVC’s are coming in a quick 2nd and may be passing that up. Like I said, I have not done research to see how many firefighters died due to heart attacks, MVC’s, or on the fireground. However I find it interesting that in a profession where we pride ourselves on the dangers of fighting blazing fires and running into the grips of death and winning that the amount of firefighters killed because of actual firefighting operations is low compared to other causes, and by that I mean those who die while performing suppression or S&R.

    Another thing that I find funny is how all of these SCBA manufactures and apparatus manufactures and turnout gear manufactures and so forth are coming out everyday with top of the line firefighter survival gear, only to run the prices up to where the average everyday fire department connot afford this new top of the line technology. We still have fire department operating with second hand gear and SCBA’s with apparatus that should have been replaced years ago, yet we fault them when a firefighter becomes injured or dies.

    It simple, some fire departments can’t afford SCOTT 4.5 carbon cylinder SCBA’s with integrated PASS, buddy breathe/RIT capabilities and a system to locate downed firefighters. We just sold an old engine that was made in the early 80’s to another volunteer department, and it was a step up from what they were currently using. We also had a bunch of old gear sitting in a pile in the station attic that nobody was using. So we bagged them up and gave them to a volunteer fire department that needed “new” gear.

    How can we expect a fire department that can’t even afford a pair of turnout gear without having a fundraiser or boot drive to be NFPA compliant or have all of the safety features that some other departments have?

    And then we look at the issue of training. Many departments do not have RIT training, Advanced Fireground Management training and so forth.

    We have to include the numbers of firefighters who are INJURED and cannot fight fire anymore. How has that number changed over the years?

    Here is another thing we have to factor also….

    The number of fires that occur in the U.S. has dropped dramatically over the years. The following information comes from the book “Introduction to Fire Protections” by Thompson/Delmar Learning in Appendix A “The U.S. Fire Problem”…..

    Information was gathered from 1977-2000 on the number of fire that occurred each of those years, and also includes the number of civilian deaths, civilian injuries, firefighter deaths, firefighter injuries, and direct property damage. However for the sake of this topic I will concentrate of firefighter deaths and injuries….
    From 1977-2000, the highest number of firefighter deaths was in 1972 with 172 FF deaths. The lowest was in 1992 with 75 deaths. The highest number of FF injuries was in 1977 with 112,540 FF injuries. The lowest was in 1997 with 85,400 injuries. As the years go, the number of deaths and injuries fluctuate. However, the number of fire steadily drops over the years. In 1977 there were 3,264,000 fires. Whereas in 2000 there was 1,708,000 fires. But even though the number of fires continually drops, the amount of property damage steadily increases from $4,709,000,000 in 1977 to $11,207,000,000 in 2000, but that beside the point.

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    KevinFFVFD, go through all the LODD's this year and also for 2006. How many were attributable to outdated PPE and/or SCBA's? You'll find a number very close to 0.

    Heart attacks are still #1. Vehicle related are still #2.

    Question is, on a national average, do heart attacks outnumber vehicle related deaths in the general population? If so, fire related persons are just falling into the proper ratio. That's not accepting the losses, just a statement.

    As for number of fires being reduces, overall that is true, but there are areas where that is not true at all. And while the number of fires may be down, the numbers of runs are up. And that leads to greater activity and higher stress levels, therefore the increased heart related events.

    Back in the 70's, when the fire runs were "higher", we ran under 100 calls per year. Now, with less fires (according to the data you posted), we are running around 250 calls per year. Ain't that weird. And no, we don't run EMS.


    Good discussion (at least, most of the posts here).
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Back in the 70's, when the fire runs were "higher", we ran under 100 calls per year. Now, with less fires (according to the data you posted), we are running around 250 calls per year. Ain't that weird. And no, we don't run EMS.
    If you're talking about PPB, we've been near 350 calls for the last 4 years since I joined. But I can't say anything about the 70's.


    But with the runs, are they talking about actual fires, or just FD requests (alarms, MVAs, fires, wires, etc.)?

    I can imagine that in the 70's, FD's were running a lot more working fires, and less of the stuff we see today. Today we (at least my department) runs a lot more calls for alarm malfunctions, car crashes, and wire-related calls, but sees less working fires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    KevinFFVFD, go through all the LODD's this year and also for 2006. How many were attributable to outdated PPE and/or SCBA's? You'll find a number very close to 0.

    Heart attacks are still #1. Vehicle related are still #2.

    Question is, on a national average, do heart attacks outnumber vehicle related deaths in the general population? If so, fire related persons are just falling into the proper ratio. That's not accepting the losses, just a statement.

    As for number of fires being reduces, overall that is true, but there are areas where that is not true at all. And while the number of fires may be down, the numbers of runs are up. And that leads to greater activity and higher stress levels, therefore the increased heart related events.

    Back in the 70's, when the fire runs were "higher", we ran under 100 calls per year. Now, with less fires (according to the data you posted), we are running around 250 calls per year. Ain't that weird. And no, we don't run EMS.


    Good discussion (at least, most of the posts here).
    You are very much so correct, but I was trying to make an example that all fire departments cannot comply as easily with NFPA standards or connot afford top of the line gear which can lead to injuries or deaths for a number of reasons.

    Maybe I could have approached my last post differently, but one of the trends that are visible when you look at the numbers is that over the last 30 years the numbers of fires that departments across the nations respond to has gradually gone down. The numbers of FF injuries, for the most part, are going down too. The only numbers that going back and forth in the FF deaths.

    I do not know how many fires they fight in the United Kingdom, but in the last 10 years the United States has had 961 FF fatalities, whereas the United Kingdom has had only 33 fatalities. In the UK, the emphasis in firefighter training from recruit training all the way into company officer training is on firefighter safety. Now I know that some of you are going to be thinking “well the UK is a lot smaller in population than the US”. The UK is 1/5th the size of the US, so even if you took 33x5 you would only get 165.

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    How is the UKs standard for FF fitness? And cardio fitness? How many elderly FFs are there? As well as grossly overweight firefighters?
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    How is the UKs standard for FF fitness? And cardio fitness? How many elderly FFs are there? As well as grossly overweight firefighters?
    True. Well we have established there is a nationwide problem, but how do we fix it? The example of the UK is to point out that they have made standards for firefighter safety and apparently they are working.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinFFVFD View Post
    True. Well we have established there is a nationwide problem, but how do we fix it? The example of the UK is to point out that they have made standards for firefighter safety and apparently they are working.
    Nationwide FF fitness standards. IDC if you are 20 or 2 years on the job, if you cant do it anymore, then become a training officer or retire.

    Establish mandatory minimum staffing requirements.

    To keep and attract Volunteers, establish LOSAP type retirement programs, as well as some type of monetary compensation for their time at calls and drills.

    If you are not minimum of FF I certified, you do no go near a burning structure.

    Establish county wide training facilities, with certified instructors to teach. There has been a problem with training, so thats how ya fix that.

    Officers have to have standards to meet before they are given the red hat.

    Theres a start!
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
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    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Question is, on a national average, do heart attacks outnumber vehicle related deaths in the general population? If so, fire related persons are just falling into the proper ratio. That's not accepting the losses, just a statement.).
    Bones- great point about the national averages. Here's a link to some stats by the World Health Organization on the cause of US deaths: http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/r...deaths.html#us

    I don't have time to research all the stats, but here are a few numbers for you. In the US deaths from Heart related issues is #1 with 29% of all deaths (the number increases if you add heart related issues like HTN and atherosclerosis). CVA's are #2 with 6.8%. MVA's are further down the list at 1.7%. (Although there was an interesting stat about MVA's: Over a 50 year period, the average US citizen has a 1 in 100 chance of death by MVA.)
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

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