1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    5

    Default leather helmet help?

    hi brothers and sisters,
    I need your help with a older model 5A. I recently was given this helmet by guy who was retiring. It is a Cairns 5A probably made in the 80's. This helmet is in amazing shape and i am trying to put it back into service. I spoke with my chief and he stated that the 5A's where pre impact shell and inorder to meet current standards i would have to find a way to insert a impact shell into the helmet. I have spoken with cairns directly and they have stated they do not want to take responsibilty of the retro fit. So I am kinda left hangin, I think this is a great helmet that deserves to be put back in service. I have thought of taking a 880 shell and inserting it so that it will work but im not really sure of the dimensions or if it will even fit. I really want to make this work so if anyone has any suggestion of how to or who to talk to about it I would greatly appreciate it. As always thanks for the help and stay safe!

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    axemanst3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    eastern shore of md
    Posts
    211

    Default

    you can't just put an impact cap in a helmet and make it nfpa....
    JOHN 15:13

    ISAIAH 43:2



    1st Asst. Chief Ray Johns

    FF/NREMT-B

    Marion Volunteer Fire Department

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    clancyxdogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    256

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nofear710 View Post
    hi brothers and sisters,
    I spoke with my chief and...
    Well, that was your first mistake. Why don't you tell him "I'll start worrying about NFPA 1971 when you start worrying about NFPA 1710."

    I would say that if you're not willing to wear it as is, it's going to have to retire like the guy who probably wore it for 20 or 30 years with no problems.

  4. #4
    npgert5819
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default help reply

    You can check with Jerome Fire equipment in Cicero,NY there phone # is 315-699-5288 see if they can help you

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nofear710 View Post
    hi brothers and sisters,
    I need your help with a older model 5A. I recently was given this helmet by guy who was retiring. It is a Cairns 5A probably made in the 80's. This helmet is in amazing shape and i am trying to put it back into service. I spoke with my chief and he stated that the 5A's where pre impact shell and inorder to meet current standards i would have to find a way to insert a impact shell into the helmet. I have spoken with cairns directly and they have stated they do not want to take responsibilty of the retro fit. So I am kinda left hangin, I think this is a great helmet that deserves to be put back in service. I have thought of taking a 880 shell and inserting it so that it will work but im not really sure of the dimensions or if it will even fit. I really want to make this work so if anyone has any suggestion of how to or who to talk to about it I would greatly appreciate it. As always thanks for the help and stay safe!

    Is the "Chief" making it a requirement that anyone else with a pre-impact shell N5A retrofit theirs to meet current standards or is he attempting to fracture your testes?

    If you must, get the shell from Cairns and mount it in the lid.

    Actually, I am surprised that the retiring Brother is just handing you his lid...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,401

    Default

    And what exactly do you intend on doing when your Department's insurance carrier denies any medical claims for injuires received wearing a piece of modified, unauthorized equipment (Cairns already told you NO and they did that for a reason.......)?????? What will your department do when the insurance company hands them the bill for your injuries because they will deny the claim (again, unauthorized modification of equipment)????????

    Do yourself a favor. Paint it up nice and give it back to the retiree or hang it on your wall.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    5

    Default

    first off thanks to those who actually are trying to help...for those that are so worried about "the towns insurance bs" and NFPA bs thanks alot! i am just trying to restore something that belongs in the fire service, it is difficult because of the current standards. let me ask you something how long have firefighters been wearing leathers? whether with a impact cap or not the answer will tell you that pride most definitly surpasses the BS of getting hurt and "town medical insurance" how many boston and FDNY "old timers" are still wearing these pre-impact leathers with the pride that they deserve. I am just plain and simple caught in a bind with the departments standards. The helmet was passed down to me from a retiree because of my desire to stay in the fire service and he felt that the helmet should be worn with pride something i can do. Plain and simple this job is dangerous. The impact shell is a way for "insurance" people to say hey if you get hurt we did the best to protect you. When in reality if a a ceiling caves in on you are bound to get hurt impact shell or not. So please i have really taken pride in this job respect this helmet and feel it should stay in the fire service and be worn with pride. In order to do that I have to play by the rules. So help is always appreciated lets respect this leather and put it where it belongs thats at a fire not on some wall.

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    94

    Default

    You answered your own 'question': you are caught in a bind and there is nothing you can do about it. Altering the construction of the helmet is not advisable, even if your chief says its ok. When he checks with the insurance folks, he will find that they will not insure non-factory gear or gear that has been structurally altered. Adding an impact cap is not "restoration" and old gear doesn't necessarily "belong" in the fire service. I realize you want to wear an oldtimer's lid, but you need an attitude adjustment.
    Some guys tried to give you good advice and you called it BS. Maybe you didn't hear them clearly:
    THE HELMET DOES NOT MEET YOUR DEPARTMENT'S CRITERIA> THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO SAFELY UPDATE IT. YOU NOW HAVE A NICE DISPLAY ITEM UNLESS YOU SWITCH TO A DEPARTMENT THAT WILL ALLOW OLD HELMETS.
    You can hate it all you want but you had your answer before you got here.
    And just to be spiteful- my leather has no impact cap and it is dept approved!
    transplant
    Last edited by transplant; 08-23-2007 at 05:03 PM.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Beautiful downtown Hortense, GA
    Posts
    745

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nofear710 View Post
    first off thanks to those who actually are trying to help...for those that are so worried about "the towns insurance bs" and NFPA bs thanks alot! ....Plain and simple this job is dangerous. The impact shell is a way for "insurance" people to say hey if you get hurt we did the best to protect you. When in reality if a a ceiling caves in on you are bound to get hurt impact shell or not. So please i have really taken pride in this job respect this helmet and feel it should stay in the fire service and be worn with pride. In order to do that I have to play by the rules. So help is always appreciated lets respect this leather and put it where it belongs thats at a fire not on some wall.
    And you'll think it's "bs" when you do get hurt and your W/C claim is denied an you're left holding the bag on the medical bill. You want to play by the rules: you have been told what the rules are. Don't like the answers you're going to get, then don't ask the question.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Lewiston2FF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Niagara Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    1,924

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by transplant View Post
    my leather has no impact cap and it is dept approved!
    transplant
    Now thats just mean! Showoff!
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    SMOKEnPipes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    41

    Talking ummmm

    to fit inside the helmet the "new legal cap" would be so small, it would only fit a 6 year old.. since so many guys want to rub your nose in it Hold onto it for 3 years and then sell it to them on ebay for $600 after they drop they're off a truck or get it confiscated after a haz mat release

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    clancyxdogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    256

    Default

    Nofear,

    It's a shame you brought this to the chief's attention. Unless the helmet's previous owner happened to be the last one, there are guys on your job who still wear this generation of helmet. I'm willing to bet your FD doesn't run right out and replace every item and retrofit every apparatus the minute some NFPA standard says it's outdated.

    Now that you had him make a ruling,however, that complicates things. As the old saying goes, it's better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

    As for the insurance and workman's comp BS, I agree, it's BS. Depending on where you're on the job, it can also be irrelevant. Around here, for instance, we're covered by 111F and give not a whit about private insurance companies or workman's comp. Maybe the esteemed local Deputy Fire Chief that visits these forums occasionally can enlighten me, but I've never heard of a civil service, PFFM firefighter being denied his right to 111F benefits because of any type of equipment issue. If it happened on the job, it's covered.

    I'm sure things are different if you work at an oil refinery.

    P.S.-

    If you've got a real set of 'em, you could get a guy that just got a new helmet to peel off the "NFPA Approved" sticker and stick it on yours-- if you get caught, just tell 'em some anonymous guy on the internet said you could do it.

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    You shouldn't have taken it in the first place. Get your own. That crust does not belong to you. And change your screen name...the "no fear" crap doesn't fly too well around here.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg View Post
    Nofear,

    It's a shame you brought this to the chief's attention. Unless the helmet's previous owner happened to be the last one, there are guys on your job who still wear this generation of helmet. I'm willing to bet your FD doesn't run right out and replace every item and retrofit every apparatus the minute some NFPA standard says it's outdated.

    Now that you had him make a ruling,however, that complicates things. As the old saying goes, it's better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

    As for the insurance and workman's comp BS, I agree, it's BS. Depending on where you're on the job, it can also be irrelevant. Around here, for instance, we're covered by 111F and give not a whit about private insurance companies or workman's comp. Maybe the esteemed local Deputy Fire Chief that visits these forums occasionally can enlighten me, but I've never heard of a civil service, PFFM firefighter being denied his right to 111F benefits because of any type of equipment issue. If it happened on the job, it's covered.

    I'm sure things are different if you work at an oil refinery.

    P.S.-

    If you've got a real set of 'em, you could get a guy that just got a new helmet to peel off the "NFPA Approved" sticker and stick it on yours-- if you get caught, just tell 'em some anonymous guy on the internet said you could do it.
    The esteemed deputy you speak of was out of work for 20 tours of duty while still a Captain and recieved his full pay and still accrued vacation and sick time while out on injury leave (he took a toss on a wet floor at a malicious false alarm at the High School and landed hard on the right hip.. right were the portable radio was... can you say "ouch"? Bone chips form lumbar vertebrae, sciatic nerve trauma and pulled/strained lower back muscles all contributed to the Captain's pain and suffering. Pain meds aka "lala land" and physical therapy did the trick.)

    In January, the newly promoted esteemed Deputy recieved a letter from the city along with his W2 forms stating that the taxes withheld for the 20 tours of duty were to be reimbursed by both the Commonwealth of Massachusetts as well as the Internal Revenuwe Service under the provisions of Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 41, section 111F.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 08-23-2007 at 09:36 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Clany thank you for actually giving me some good ideas and having some actual insite into the situation, as for the majority of the other people that have answered this thread heres the question? did u happen to read the title of this "leather helmet help" so far i have found just a couple of people that actually have given some kind of help on this topic. My department requires that if you want to wear a leather it has to be inspected by the chief therefore it must at least meet osha standards. I realize this is a difficult question but really why is it sooo hard for people to understand that this helmet is in near perfect condition and i wrote this thread with the mere thought that fellow jakes would be helpful. Instead people tell me "hang it up" and why make a alteration that would make it not covered by insurance. Really people maybe I just have a "old school" mentality but this helmet belongs inservice and yea once again i already know that if i get injured that sure "insurance" would not cover medical bills. I just want to wear this helmet and im sure with the right help there has to be a way to do it. Plain and simple this job is dangerous I said before think about it a during a cieling collapse u are gonna get hurt but a leather is something you can take pride in. Why is that so difficult to believe? so many of you have got caught up with whatever the chief says and the bs of insurance. lets wake up and take some pride in what we wear not critize those who want to wear it!

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    5

    Default

    wow! and i thought people couldnt get any lower, really the helmet was passed on to me to continue seeing fire. what is this bs about someone else's crust. sure the helmet has plenty of history to it and the person that gave it to me was preety happy that it just wasnt gonna "sit on someones wall" he wants the crust to continue and i respect the helmet more than anything it is my most prize posesion that is why i started this thread in the first place. really wake up people there is a thing in this job called pride. and attacking a screen name is just plain childish im sure the real firefighters believe in brotherhood apparently some of us dont

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,242

    Wink

    First of all, I really don't like the screen name NOFEAR! Either you haven't been in the fire service long enough to get your ears toasted or hands hurt or you are just not paying attention.

    I have old FDNY style leather. It was made to fit my head. It has no impact cap. Never did and will never have one. This is what you have. You can not make it into anything that would even come close to the current standards.

    Take this advice, you can either clean it up by washing it with a good soap and hot water and let it dry in the shade and then paint it or just clean it up a bit and hang it in your room out of the way and stop worrying about wearing it. It probably doesn't even fit you noggin. The fireman, yes FIREMAN, who gave it to you probably didnít know that you were going to come in here on your first post and get everyone upset about an old helmet. By the way, I have an old Cairns Senator (aluminum) aka a "Tin Lizzie" but I don't wear it or haven't worn it in years. It doesnít meet any standards!

    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    KEEPBACK200FEET's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    East Carolina University
    Posts
    1,176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    You shouldn't have taken it in the first place. Get your own. That crust does not belong to you. And change your screen name...the "no fear" crap doesn't fly too well around here.
    I never thought I would agree with this guy due to "the right wing crap" I believe, but he does have a point...A point that I was going to post until I read his.
    Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Go put your pussy 2 1/2" lines away kiddies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer343

    By the way KEEPBACK200FEET, you're so dramatic!

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    BKDRAFT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bay Area, California
    Posts
    1,146

    Default

    I usually don't write things like this because you cannot change what you have already done. I would have never went to the Chief about this. I would have just started wearing it on the job.

    The respect that particular leather deserves is not to be messed with. That firefighter that passed it on to you would probably take it back if he found out you were trying to get an impact cap put into it. Put it on your wall. Be honored, and privileged that a senior man passed on something such as his leather.

    Buy a Cairns Sam Houston N6A and start with your own new leather. At least you will know that all the crust and grime build up on it is from you.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    ylwlab_45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Wauwatosa, Wisconsin
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Be realistic. What's your health and safety really worth? If you're a father and or a husband, what's the value of you being around for your family and being able to provide for them. Our job is dangerous enough. Why do something that would potentially expose yourself to more harm, legal fallout and embrassment because of your own actions. What you're trying to do makes absolutely no sense, Brother. Just because others are running around with pre-impact leathers today (and you can bet they're in violation of their respective department's health and safety guidelines), it doesn't make it right or safe. And it doesn't make them any more or less of a fireman than the guy with an impact cap. But, everybody is entitled to make poor decisions I guess.

    Do the right thing. Retire the antique and purchase a new or used leather with the impact cap and start a new tradition and a new history with a helmet that you can pass on to someone else down the road... hopefully after you've been long retired, and in good health, and enjoying all that life has to offer an old man.

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Maybe you should get over the whole "buffy-ness" of a leather helmet. You probably just want to look like a salty old timer, or perhaps a bronx fdny guy from the 70's. Those days are gone. I know that many people in this job are just interested looking "cool" or "tough," but the real deal tough and cool guys on this job dont care whats on their head or what they look like as long as it is functional enough to allow them to fight fires.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    firemonkey311's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    361

    Default

    Buy your own new lid and start your own history with it. Don't try to be something your not.
    Hello. Fire dept.. You light'em, We fight'em!

    "hard working, gear jamming, nail driving, "jake". "

    IACOJ
    4-16-2010 "On the approach"

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Just a couple of things.


    One, stop being cheap. Just buy a new one that will protect the most important part of your body. NFPA standards are there for a reason. Second, the crust does not belong to you, everyone should earn their own.

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Cupcake NY
    Posts
    1,327

    Default

    This guy does not have an 'fdny' style helmet. The ones made to fit your head have an impact cap. This helmet is pre-impact. It just has 4 pieces of webbing to hold your head from hitting the top. I have 3 of them here in my line of sight as I type. Senior man in my house has a N5A that looks like it was made in 1950, its practically falling apart and it still does the trick. Just lay low till the Chief retires, then just let it show up.

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Jacksonville Fl
    Posts
    507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by McCaffery17 View Post
    but the real deal tough and cool guys on this job dont care whats on their head or what they look like as long as it is functional enough to allow them to fight fires.
    i have no idea what this means, the "real deal tough and cool guys" part. As opposed to? The fake deal weak *******s that impersonate firemen?

    maybe he wants to look like his hero billy baldwin?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. leather helmet comparison
    By firehat87 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 02-06-2007, 02:47 PM
  2. Holding An Old Leather Helmet
    By TailboardJockey in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-27-2002, 04:58 PM
  3. Leather Helmet Re-Furbs
    By ENG23PFD in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-15-2001, 03:38 AM
  4. Leather Helmet Re-Furbs
    By ENG23PFD in forum Career/Paid Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-15-2001, 03:37 AM
  5. Leather Helmet Re-Furbs
    By ENG23PFD in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-15-2001, 03:31 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register