1. #1
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    Default Mains Can't Handle the Pump-Any Advice?

    Here's the deal, I'm from a small, rural VFD. The local rural water district recently extended the water system throughout our district, and handily install hydrants with two 2 2 1/2" discharges and one 5" discharge every mile. Individual property owners (myself included) coughed up $800 for a hydrant with a single 2 1/2" connection--those are placed randomly throughout the area.

    Today I was running one of our FF's through some basic pump training on our engine. We had a 3" supply line laid to the engine, and were flowing an 1 1/2" handline at 125psi.

    The hydrant we were hooked to is on an 8" main, which is made of HDPE pipe. It was installed in the fall of '05.

    After the pump training, I went home and received a message from the Chief, who said that the water department called and said we caused a water hammer, as noted by their sensors in the lines.

    The water department guy went on to say that our hydrants are not designed or capable of being pumped by our engine--that they are only able to passively fill our tanks.

    Now, I'd understand if we were trying to suck 500gpm out of a 2" main. This particular hydrant has 100psi of residual pressure, and we can't have been flowing more that 100gpm, if my calculations are correct. We DID crack a 3" discharge so I could demostrate loss in residual pressure, but we did NOT slam any valves closed.

    Is it actually possible that our new water system is completely incapable of providing pressurized water from a hydrant?

    Keep in mind that I have yet to talk to a water department employee. There's only one full-time guy, and I guess he's out reading sensors today.

    Edited for spelling...you'd think I'd use spellcheck!
    Last edited by SilverCity4; 08-24-2007 at 06:02 PM.
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCity4 View Post
    Here's the deal, I'm from a small, rural VFD. The local rural water district recently extended the water system throughout our district, and handily install hydrants with two 2 2 1/2" discharges and one 5" discharge every mile. Individual property owners (myself included) coughed up $800 for a hydrant with a single 2 1/2" connection--those are placed randomly throughout the area.

    Today I was running one of our FF's through some basic pump training on our engine. We had a 3" supply line laid to the engine, and were flowing an 1 1/2" handline at 125psi.

    The hydrant we were hooked to is on an 8" main, which is made of HDPE pipe. It was installed in the fall of '05.

    After the pump training, I went home and received a message from the Chief, who said that the water department called and said we caused a water hammer, as noted by their sensors in the lines.

    The water department guy went on to say that our hydrants are not designed or capable of being pumped by our engine--that they are only able to passively fill our tanks.

    Now, I'd understand if we were trying to suck 500gpm out of a 2" main. This particular hydrant has 100psi of residual pressure, and we can't have been flowing more that 100gpm, if my calculations are correct. We DID crack a 3" discharge so I could demostrate loss in residual pressure, but we did NOT slam any valves closed.

    Is it actually possible that our new water system is completely incapable of providing pressurized water from a hydrant?

    Keep in mind that I have yet to talk to a water department employee. There's only one full-time guy, and I guess he's out reading sensors today.

    Edited for spelling...you'd think I'd use spellcheck!
    Many questions come to mind.

    What was the system designed to do?

    Who says you can't hook to it?

    How much water is available?

    What is the residual pressure?

    Okay IF they say you can;t pump it here is my suggestion...Get a folding tank, set it up and fill it from the hydrant and draft from the tank. It allows the hydrant to flow it's capacity, allows you to get all the water you can from the system and doesn't have you actually hooked to the hydrant.

    BUT get the first questions answered before you move off into something radical.

    Good luck,

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Many questions come to mind.

    What was the system designed to do?
    Supply residential meters. I had to do some convincing to get them to give me a 2" meter for my house, as it's sprinklered.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Who says you can't hook to it?
    "Joe" at the water department. Don't really know if Joe is the man in charge--they just got a new guy. And this is somewhat secondhand info, as I haven't been able to talk to anyone with the water department yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    How much water is available?

    What is the residual pressure?
    Don't know the total system capacity, but the residual pressure on this hydrant is 100 psi.

    Setting up a folding tank at the hydrant crossed my mind today, as I'm wading through the steps to get an ISO reevalution. Guess we could set up a folding tank at the hydrant and pump to another engine at the fire.

    Most of my frustration is stemming from statements made from a water department employee who, hopefully, isn't correct.

    Let me throw this out there--as far as water hammers go, do pressure relief valves work both ways? As in, is there any such thing as a pressure relief valve on the intake side that prevents overpressure from going back through the lines?
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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    The fact that you allegedly caused a hammer should have nothing to do with the systems ability to supply your pumper. You don't generally cause a hammer by opening the valve, unless you are free flowing that water into a large closed system (i.e. filling the closed supply line to the truck), and it tops out suddenly.

    Is your portion of the system a dead-end line?

    If so, I would bet dollars to donuts that the real problem is that you stole pressure from the rest of the service, and they noticed/got complaints. We have done that many times around here over the years (one giant dead-end system), but our utility politely explains to the homeowners the need to train.

    Also, if it was a hammer, dead-end lines are more prones to measurable hammer as they cannot disperse the shock in two directions.

    If you were flowing that handline with a healthy 100 psi residual, you should have no problems using it during ops, you just may have to accomodate the utility and use their "preferred" hydrants for wet training. We have a half dozen that we use when we need to flow for training, and they are either on the healthy main with 150psi, or they are way out in the sticks where we won't impact the system as noticably.

    And choosing a time can help too. Don't flow early morning, lunch, or dinner time, when the customer peak usage is up.
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    "I would bet dollars to donuts that the real problem is that you stole pressure from the rest of the service, and they noticed/got complaints."

    I have to agree with mcaldwell... The county VFD that I run with has hydrant here and there and some are even on 3" mains... And we've had the same problem just like you...

    Also note the static pressure on this system runs from 80 to 110 psi, but once you start flowing water it drops off fast and everyone downstream starts calling in to Water dept... Heck they even called in while refilling our tankers before...

    The water dept has even said that the system is bad and not design for fire flow just to supply house water meters...


    Jason

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    Okay, just got off the phone with Joe, who is the man in charge at the water department. I got a mixed bag of news.

    The good news is that we didn't do any damage (although I still don't know what it was that we did exactly to cause the pressure spike.

    I couldn't believe that the new water system, which is constructed of HDPE pipe, couldn't handle the fluctuations in pressure. Turns out, it has nothing to do with the new system....it's the old half of the water system that connects to the new. The old system is PVC, not HDPE. The pressure spikes were recorded at the border of the old/new system, which is about 5 miles out.

    Joe is also a firefighter with our neighboring department, which uses the old system. He says that they solve this problem by free-flowing into their tanker/tender, and use the tanker to pressurize the water to the engine. This acts as a massive relief valve, so pressure spikes are absorbed in the tanker/tender.

    I would prefer not to do it that way, but sounds like I don't have a choice.

    Any suggestions out there?
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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    Have you considered doing a flow test on the hydrants to determine capacity?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenNFD1219 View Post
    Have you considered doing a flow test on the hydrants to determine capacity?
    Yes. As a matter of fact, we're going to be doing that in the coming weeks. The water department is confident that most of the hydrants (including the one we were pumping off of) should flow in excess of 250gpm, which is what I need for ISO at this point.

    At the time of my first post, I didn't have all the information. I realize now that my concerns about the new system being incapable of flowing enough volume were unfounded. The reason the water department doesn't want us to connect an engine directly to the hydrants is because the old half of the system is too fragile to handle any sharp fluctuations in pressure, even though caused by closing a 1 1/2" nozzle too quickly. I suppose technically, we did cause a water hammer, but if the entire system (new and old) were constructed of the the HDPE pipe, it would not have been an issue.

    I appreciate the responses so far. I'm still disappointed that we are going to have to allocate a tanker or drop tank at the hydrant to utilize the water, instead of just laying a line to the engine.

    I think that the quarter-turn valve on the intake probably caused our water hammer. We're (hopefully) placing gate valves on all the trucks soon to place on the hydrants so we can utilize the hydrants without having to open and close them repeatedly. That's probably the fastest way to safely use the hydrant without getting another call from the water department.
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCity4 View Post
    ... probably caused our water hammer...
    I prefer calling it "finding weak spots in the water system." haha - kidding.

    We have lines that date back to the 1800's... incredibly sensitive to pressure spikes. But, better to find them in training than on a fire -- at least that's what we'd tell the person on the other end of the phone.
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    A basic gate valve on the hydrant is not going to helo you prevent hammers, just give you more control of your supply. You might want to get a gate valve with an integrated pressure relief valve.

    In your case, I would make sure all your pumps and intakes (and any other major devices/appliances) are equipped with pressure relief valves. They are spring loaded, adjustable, and allow excess pressure to dump right at the truck. They won't prevent all hammers, but they will reduce the severity.

    We have PRV's on all of our LDH intakes, and a PRV on our triple wye.
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    Can you explain the pump that you were using. Type of intake valves, type of pressure relief device, type of discharge valves. Also, tell us the exact sequence of things you were doing and we may be able to tell you what happened.

    The hydrant in front of one of our firehouses has a little issue I have found twice. This issue is actually a $400 situation. If you arent careful, the surges from closing things too fast will trip the dry pipe valve for the fire sprinkler system. OOPS!!

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    I'd be curious as to why they installed hydrants if you're not supposed to use them. Also, if sections of the old system get damaged, what do they replace them with? And would that be a bad thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    The hydrant in front of one of our firehouses has a little issue I have found twice. This issue is actually a $400 situation. If you arent careful, the surges from closing things too fast will trip the dry pipe valve for the fire sprinkler system. OOPS!!
    We see that one at least 4 times a year around here as well. The price of dead end systems.

    Usually it is caused by contractors using the hydrants to fill industrial tenders, etc. The last one was the Utility itself though, and they tripped two buildings simultaneously when they closed a PRV too quickly after service.

    No damage, but it did earn us a couple of cases of beer (from the Utility) for the next FF BBQ though.
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    [QUOTE=MG3610;855109]Can you explain the pump that you were using. Type of intake valves, type of pressure relief device, type of discharge valves. Also, tell us the exact sequence of things you were doing and we may be able to tell you what happened.QUOTE]


    We laid 100' of 3" from the hydrant to the 2 1/2" intake on the pump panel. The intake has a quarter-turn ball valve on in. From there it goes into the pump, which is a two-stage 1000 gpm Waterous. We had pulled 100' of 1 1/2" with a fog nozzle, and were flowing that at 125 psi. We did remove the cap from a 2 1/2" discharge, and cracked the valve enough to demostrate the loss of residual pressure. I'm not certain on the type of relief valve....it's internal, and was set to 200 psi.

    I'm of the opinion that the quarter-turn valve on the intake was the culpruit, as we were careful with the fog nozzle and valve controls on the pump panel. But, to give the water department guy some credit for his area of expertise, if the old mains are really as fragile as he says, it very well could have happened by shutting any of the valves...not out of carelessness, just because of the weakness in the old mains.

    We've had to change our thinking on this whole deal. We get less than 5 structure fires a year out here, and that includes barns and outbuildings, and mobile homes. We've only been in a position to make an agressive interior a couple of times and were too far from hydrants to lay lines (think about [I]miles[I] from a hydrant).

    In order to utilize these hydrants as a constant water supply, we'll have to lay a line to the engine, and station another truck between the hydrant and the engine to act as a relief valve for pressure going back down the line. That is, pressurized water from the hydrant into the tank fill of the relay truck, and then use the relay truck's pump-pressurized discharge to move the water to the engine. We would have to do this if the hydrant is right in front of the building on fire, or 1000' down the road...it doesn't matter.

    Unless somebody can tell me if there is a relief valve device designed to be placed on the intake that can bleed pressure off going up the line. The water department doesn't think so, and I'm certainly not the expert either.
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCity4 View Post
    Unless somebody can tell me if there is a relief valve device designed to be placed on the intake that can bleed pressure off going up the line. The water department doesn't think so, and I'm certainly not the expert either.
    FWIW, we use incoming relief valves on all our pump side steamer connections for LDH. Even if you can't find a suitable valve for your 2 1/2" inlet you could always go to using your steamer inlet with a reducer or wye. That would still certainly be preferable to having to use an intermediate engine or a portable pond/drafting arrangement.

    (The thought that comes to mind for me is this: How many interfaces are there between your new water system and the old "brittle" system? Would it be feasible for your water company to install pressure relief devices at those points to protect their system? Are the flow directions always outbound at the interfaces? How about installing one-way backflow valves? It seems like there should be a way to engineer the whole system to protect the older "brittle" bits...)

    This a Jaffrey valve similar to what we use. Jaffrey was been bought out by TFT and may not be immediately available outside of on-hand inventory. TFT should be producing these again but I don't know how soon.

    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 08-27-2007 at 01:07 PM. Reason: typo
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    Does a relief valve works both ways? I understand the relief valve on the engine protects against sudden pressure increases going downstream (towards the nozzle...not sure if that's the right term). An exteranl relief valve on the intake would do the same...protect the everything downstream from sudden pressure increases caused further upstream (something within the water system, or from another engine pumping to the attack engine).

    Because if the external relief valve would protect the upstream side (the mains protected from suddenly stopping water flow), why doesn't the internal relief valve protect the upstream side in the side way?

    As for the connecting points of the new/old water system, I don't know how many there are. I'll have a map shortly. I do know that the two systems feed both ways...there are pumps and towers in the new system and old system, and they both work to feed the whole system. I wouldn't mind trying to get a relief valve installed at the border of the system, but don't know the cost or it that's even a possibility.
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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    Lightbulb Another solution?

    This may be another solution. Our pumpers have an intake connection that is directly piped to the tank as well as the normal intakes piped to the pump. We use it for filling the tank at the station without having to have the engine on and pump in gear, etc. If your pumpers have such a connection, then the hydrant would only be filling your tank and you could pump from the tank instead of an intake. If the valve on this intake causes a hammer, then I guess that even turning off the hydrant might cause one too and your still out of luck. Just thought I would throw this out here and muddy the water further
    Kevin Sink
    Fair Grove Fire Dept.
    Thomasville, NC USA
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    The internal relief valve is ony as effective as it's plumbing, and never large enough to handle both sides of the system, especially when LDH (and even 3") is in play.

    Most internal valves have a small diameter tank return (i.e. 2-3 inches max), or more commonly a pump recirc line that allows pressurized water from the front of the pump to be recirculated back to the rear. Usually this is 3-4 inches max, maybe less. In the event of a sudden stoppage of flow, you have pressure return from the discharge AND pressure inbound from the supply. The total gpm moving on each side of the pump is double what the discharge is putting out. There is no way the pump can handle all that flow effectively through a single small recirc. That recirc is really there to prevent dangerous spikes on attack lines, and not really to protect the supply side.

    By using the pump recirc, you should cover the discharge backpressure of a single handline, maybe two. By having an intake PRV you can relieve the supply line much more effectively, as it is essentially at the source. A hydrant PRV would be more effective still.


    Around here, in a large flow situation we have a PRV on the 4" LDH intake, plus the pump's recirc system, and a PRV on our three way gated wye on the attack side of the system. Triple protection against pressure buildup and hammer. And in case anyone is wondering if it matters, they PRV springs are all set to 180 PSI, and they still relieve regularly even at a PDP of 150 or less.
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    Default water guys are often all wet

    Gotta love those "water guys". They put in a system, tell the fire department to try it out, then say, "It wasn't meant to do that, you'll break the system." A Chief of mine was once threatened with a City citation (not the good kind) if we didn't stop using the "system flushing outlets" for fire dept. use. We asked if that included fires. "Why no", water guy said, "they are fire hydrants." Hmmmm.

    My suggestion for your situation, get the water authority that "owns" the system to provide your department with a written, signed document that lays out when, where, and for what purposes the system may be used for purposes other than an emergency. If they won't do that, don't use it. PERIOD.

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    It sounds like your relief valve was set too high. If you have a typical discharge relief valve (hand wheel type) and are unfamiliar with its use read on.

    Setting the relief valve should be done by watching the discharge pressure guage as you slowly spin the valve handle counter clockwise until you see the pressure start to drop. Once a pressure drop is notices, begin slowly cranking back in a clockwise motion until the discharge pressure is at your desired pump pressure for the lines you are flowing (if two pressures are required for more than one line set it o the highest pressure). Turn it one half turn past the pressure you are pumping and it shoudl set. Also listen to the sound of the water as it flows through the relief valve, youll notice a subtle hum or "wooshing" sound when the relief valve is open.

    Opening ans closing the nozzle and valves VERY slowly on your delicate water system should allow you to do whatever you want. Remember to keep at least 20 PSI on your itnake guage (residual) to prevent damage to the mains.

    Your setup sounds like nothing unusual.

    The relief valve Deputy Marshal shows you is primarily designed to protect from surges coming into the pump, but it will also capture a surge that works its way backwards from the discharge to the intake side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCity4 View Post
    Yes. As a matter of fact, we're going to be doing that in the coming weeks. The water department is confident that most of the hydrants (including the one we were pumping off of) should flow in excess of 250gpm, which is what I need for ISO at this point.

    At the time of my first post, I didn't have all the information. I realize now that my concerns about the new system being incapable of flowing enough volume were unfounded. The reason the water department doesn't want us to connect an engine directly to the hydrants is because the old half of the system is too fragile to handle any sharp fluctuations in pressure, even though caused by closing a 1 1/2" nozzle too quickly. I suppose technically, we did cause a water hammer, but if the entire system (new and old) were constructed of the the HDPE pipe, it would not have been an issue.

    I appreciate the responses so far. I'm still disappointed that we are going to have to allocate a tanker or drop tank at the hydrant to utilize the water, instead of just laying a line to the engine.

    I think that the quarter-turn valve on the intake probably caused our water hammer. We're (hopefully) placing gate valves on all the trucks soon to place on the hydrants so we can utilize the hydrants without having to open and close them repeatedly. That's probably the fastest way to safely use the hydrant without getting another call from the water department.
    Uhh 250gpm is only the starting point (piddly) for ISO. You have a 8" main you should be planning how you're going to get 1000+gpm out of it so you can max you ISO water supply. LDH relay etc.

    HDPE is not superior to PVC pipe. PVC is the standard most parts of the country. Material selection is based on cost, pressure/flow requirements, and which material salesman is the fastest talker. My opinion of the rural water system employees is that you can trust what they tell you as far as you'd trust the std politician. Having worked with ONE material at ONE employer in their career (after dropping out of 9th grade) does not carry much weight. We have a rural water system constructing a system thru our FD. 8" PVC. The entire thing is a rediculous poorly managed boondoggle. None the less, their anti-FD position is can't pump from hydrants ,which so far they have refused to install, because will collapse their main. Total BS. Properly installed PVC main will not be damaged if you could pull a vacumn (source tech rep at UNI-BELL). As we would be using soft hose suction we could not even pull a vacumn. They are just full of it.

    Hydrant placement - AWWA (American Water Works Association) and ISO standard is hydrant every 500ft/within 300ft of structure. Every mile does not cut it. There are rural water associations that meet the standard. In rural areas. If no structure in the area I'd go with hydrants located at road int and within 300ft. Still an open issue in our area.

    Uni-Bell is the the PVC pipe mfg trade assoc. http://www.uni-bell.org some good stuff at their web site. I'm sure the HDPE mfg also have a trade assoc as they are working hard to get a chunk of the pipe business.

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