1. #1
    Forum Member
    Kilroy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    17

    Post Vacant Structure Fires and Firefighter Injuries

    There's an interesting report on this issue at http://www.mpffu.org/communications/FFDInjuryReport.pdf.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Kilroy; 09-09-2007 at 09:40 PM.

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
    What do you think?
    I think that a 1st post on a highly controversial topic by someone using the handle "Kilroy" looks suspiciously like a troll.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  3. #3
    Hook & Can

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    376

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    I think that a 1st post on a highly controversial topic by someone using the handle "Kilroy" looks suspiciously like a troll.
    I'm thinking the same thing.

    Good catch DM, even with the eye-patch.

    We going over 5 pages on this one?

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
    There's an interesting report on this issue at http://www.mpffu.org/communications/FFDInjuryReport.pdf.

    What do you think?
    What are your thoughts, how many vacant jobs you been to in your career?...or are you another cut and paste wonder?

    One note...I didn't notice where this report tells the Flint FD how to tell if a building on fire is void of all life. Afterall a vacant building is only truely vacant after we have determined so...this report looks at factors known after the fire and not necessarily those known before.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-27-2007 at 01:39 PM.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    I smell a RAT: an attorney or a reporter.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    swarmy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    115

    Default

    How and when do we decide if something is "vacant"? Define vacant and explain to me how we can tell if something is vacant while standing in the street.

    Go away TROLL!!!
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Here's a perfect example of how these "reports" use scewed statistics....

    Firefighters made 136 offensive attacks into 124 vacant buildings during the survey period.
    That's just one example. There's a lot of statistics and information not included.

    Obviously whoever wrote the report (dare I guess you did?) had an agenda.

    Run your little study for at least 5 years, and then for the next five, and then.... Then, get all the information and base your decision off of the numbers, not the numbers off your decision.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    So, Kilroy.. are you a Jake, a reporter or an attorney?


    If you are a jake, what do you think?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
    There's an interesting report on this issue at http://www.mpffu.org/communications/FFDInjuryReport.pdf.

    What do you think?
    What department do you work for?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  10. #10
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Excellent report ... very well presented ... thanks for the link. I would be interested to see how the FD responded to this report and if it influenced their tactics or SOPs in anyway?

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    jlcooke3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Aiken, SC
    Posts
    438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Excellent report ... very well presented ... thanks for the link. I would be interested to see how the FD responded to this report and if it influenced their tactics or SOPs in anyway?
    What tactical changes would you suggest they make?

  12. #12
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    What tactical changes would you suggest they make?
    You really wanna know! Ha! Well forgive me but I don't recall if the report even said they already had an SOP that dictated policy that might be changed. However, initial views - I would look closer as to WHY and HOW these injuries were so high in numbers when compared to the national average. Is it a training issue or something to do with the level of acceptable risk in this area? I would initiate an inspection program of all vacants in the area to familiarize firefighters with the hazards and possibly an exterior marking system of particularly dangerous structures that are not to be entered (missing or dangerous floors etc).

    Have I missed anything?!

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,579

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    You really wanna know! Ha! Well forgive me but I don't recall if the report even said they already had an SOP that dictated policy that might be changed. However, initial views - I would look closer as to WHY and HOW these injuries were so high in numbers when compared to the national average. Is it a training issue or something to do with the level of acceptable risk in this area? I would initiate an inspection program of all vacants in the area to familiarize firefighters with the hazards and possibly an exterior marking system of particularly dangerous structures that are not to be entered (missing or dangerous floors etc).

    Have I missed anything?!
    Question. How do you inspect a vacant Private Dwelling? Around here thats illegal. Just because its vacant doesnt mean its not still private property.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,628

    Default

    Batt ...

    I wish you luck man. These guys have determined that's it's really ok to kill firefighters for a structure that is falling down.

    I've fought the fight here, and it simply ain't worth the effort brother.

  15. #15
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    LA deep respect brother ....

    NYC I acknowledge your point. It is important to differentiate between 'vacants' and 'abandoned' structures. Use enforcing powers to ensure vacants are secured or boarded up. With abandoned structures, initiate a program of inspection, boarding up and/or demolishing.

    Wanna peek inside? Look through the windows! If it's boarded securely, try to locate the owner to find their intentions with this property. This may require a temporary assignment or setting up of a task force to deal with the problem.

  16. #16
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    I wish you luck man. These guys have determined that's it's really ok to kill firefighters for a structure that is falling down.
    You are right, because we all know that vacant building fires start only do to divine intervention and there is never any victims inside.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  17. #17
    the 4-1-4
    Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Batt ...

    I wish you luck man. These guys have determined that's it's really ok to kill firefighters for a structure that is falling down.

    I've fought the fight here, and it simply ain't worth the effort brother.

    You really just don't get it, do you? Have you ever been to Flint, Detroit, Gary, or any other decaying rust belt city? How about any city that has any number of vacant structures, combined with population around it. I really have to question your experience, because you are so closed minded about this topic, almost as closed minded as stopping at green lights while responding.
    Do you somehow think that firemen in these cities don't know how to do their job? Do you think that they don't know what a decayed structure looks like, or how much fire is too much to enter?
    We have thousands of vacant homes in my city, and many of them are abutted up next to homes that are occupied. People peel the board up off all of the time and do their drugs, have sex, drink, or live. Kids go in these homes to play and have fun. Many of these vacants are within 3 or 4 feet of the home next door, creating a huge exposure issue. Contrary to what you think, you can't protect the occupied home from the burning vacant without aggressively attacking the vacant. There is simply too much fire load, and too close of proximity. Do you understand that? It gets worse in other cities like New York, or northern New Jersey, or Philly, and so on.

    Next, take a look at the injuries listed. Are the vacant buildings the problem, or is it a manpower issue. I know you are against adequate manpower, with how you told me that the cuts in my city were ok. Lack of man power means that fewer guys have to do more work. Sprains, strains, and so on increase, it's happening here, as we speak, I guarantee that it is in Flint. Puncture wounds can happen at any fire, as well as minor burns. They haven't killed any brothers in the report listed. What I see is a a department serving a city with extensive urban decay, with less than adequate staffing. You have to look deeper than the numbers. If you had any real experience, you may actually understand that.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    You really wanna know! Ha! Well forgive me but I don't recall if the report even said they already had an SOP that dictated policy that might be changed. However, initial views - I would look closer as to WHY and HOW these injuries were so high in numbers when compared to the national average. Is it a training issue or something to do with the level of acceptable risk in this area? I would initiate an inspection program of all vacants in the area to familiarize firefighters with the hazards and possibly an exterior marking system of particularly dangerous structures that are not to be entered (missing or dangerous floors etc).

    Have I missed anything?!
    How in the world do you make any changes based off of a "study" taken over one year and entailing 21 (19 offensive, 2 defensive) injuries on vacant structures? That's compared to 13 on "occupied" structures.

    There is not enough information in this op-ed piece (that's about all I consider it, as slanted as it is) to make any determination other than in that ONE year there were that many statistical injuries.

    If you want to base changes on data, do it on a study over 5, 10, 15+ years. That will give you some true statistics. Then, find out what the true numbers are, present them in an unbiased manner and include ALL of the numbers. Finally, make sure the author made the determination off of the statistics, rather than making the statistics show the determination.

    I'm all for preventing injuries, especially with the "risk nothing to save nothing" attitude, but this "report" is BS.

  19. #19
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    I disagree Catch .... in this situation, if that report ended up on my desk and I was responsible for making changes I would be irresponsible if I didn't look closely at the situation. These types of problems can sometimes be transitional as areas go through decay and deprivation. I would suggest that in 5-15 years time the problems may have moved elsewhere.

    No this would call for some immediate action in my opinion. At least take a closer look.

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,628

    Default

    You really just don't get it, do you? Have you ever been to Flint, Detroit, Gary, or any other decaying rust belt city? How about any city that has any number of vacant structures, combined with population around it. I really have to question your experience, because you are so closed minded about this topic, almost as closed minded as stopping at green lights while responding.
    Do you somehow think that firemen in these cities don't know how to do their job? Do you think that they don't know what a decayed structure looks like, or how much fire is too much to enter?
    We have thousands of vacant homes in my city, and many of them are abutted up next to homes that are occupied. People peel the board up off all of the time and do their drugs, have sex, drink, or live. Kids go in these homes to play and have fun. Many of these vacants are within 3 or 4 feet of the home next door, creating a huge exposure issue. Contrary to what you think, you can't protect the occupied home from the burning vacant without aggressively attacking the vacant. There is simply too much fire load, and too close of proximity. Do you understand that? It gets worse in other cities like New York, or northern New Jersey, or Philly, and so on.


    Jasper ...

    I am not an urban firefighter.

    The problem that I had the last time we discussed this topic was that folks who had never been to North Bethlehem NY or Colchester VT or Haughton LA was telling me that we should be operating in an aggressive manner at all abondoned and likely vacant structures (such as commercial structures after-hours or residental properties confirmed to be vacant by neighbors), even though we had never had a demonstrated problem with folks in these structures. It works both ways.

    While I honestly don't understand why it is done in most cases, I never said it was wrong for any department to operate in this manner. It is thier choice, and if they determine the reward is worth the benefit based on thier community, more power to them.

    The departments I have been with operate they way they do because they understand what happens in thier communties. If we can just discuss it with that in mind, everything will be fine.

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,579

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You really just don't get it, do you? Have you ever been to Flint, Detroit, Gary, or any other decaying rust belt city? How about any city that has any number of vacant structures, combined with population around it. I really have to question your experience, because you are so closed minded about this topic, almost as closed minded as stopping at green lights while responding.
    Do you somehow think that firemen in these cities don't know how to do their job? Do you think that they don't know what a decayed structure looks like, or how much fire is too much to enter?
    We have thousands of vacant homes in my city, and many of them are abutted up next to homes that are occupied. People peel the board up off all of the time and do their drugs, have sex, drink, or live. Kids go in these homes to play and have fun. Many of these vacants are within 3 or 4 feet of the home next door, creating a huge exposure issue. Contrary to what you think, you can't protect the occupied home from the burning vacant without aggressively attacking the vacant. There is simply too much fire load, and too close of proximity. Do you understand that? It gets worse in other cities like New York, or northern New Jersey, or Philly, and so on.


    Jasper ...

    I am not an urban firefighter.

    The problem that I had the last time we discussed this topic was that folks who had never been to North Bethlehem NY or Colchester VT or Haughton LA was telling me that we should be operating in an aggressive manner at all abondoned and likely vacant structures (such as commercial structures after-hours or residental properties confirmed to be vacant by neighbors), even though we had never had a demonstrated problem with folks in these structures. It works both ways.

    While I honestly don't understand why it is done in most cases, I never said it was wrong for any department to operate in this manner. It is thier choice, and if they determine the reward is worth the benefit based on thier community, more power to them.

    The departments I have been with operate they way they do because they understand what happens in thier communties. If we can just discuss it with that in mind, everything will be fine
    .
    Your last post on this thread is in direct contradiction to what you are saying now.


    I wish you luck man. These guys have determined that's it's really ok to kill firefighters for a structure that is falling down.
    Doesnt sound at all like you are understanding of the conditions that an "urban" FF faces on a daily basis by that comment.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,628

    Default

    Actually NY, it's not a contridiction.

    Batt posted a link to a report in a specific location which detailed thier experiences in operating in vacant structures.

    When I was discussing my feelings about operating in vacants, it was based on my current department's policy plus my experiences in other specific locations.

    Batt no comments in general about operating in vacants, however posters here started making questioning comments about the stats and making conclusions about another jurisdictions operations.

    My comment was a referral to how the some folks questions stats and opinions which I have developed based on service in my specific districts, even though they have never stepped foot in those districts.

    I possibly could have worded it in a better fashion.

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    You really wanna know! Ha! Well forgive me but I don't recall if the report even said they already had an SOP that dictated policy that might be changed. However, initial views - I would look closer as to WHY and HOW these injuries were so high in numbers when compared to the national average. Is it a training issue or something to do with the level of acceptable risk in this area? I would initiate an inspection program of all vacants in the area to familiarize firefighters with the hazards and possibly an exterior marking system of particularly dangerous structures that are not to be entered (missing or dangerous floors etc).
    Have I missed anything?!
    Wanna peek inside? Look through the windows! If it's boarded securely, try to locate the owner to find their intentions with this property. This may require a temporary assignment or setting up of a task force to deal with the problem.
    In your utopia, you may have the time and manpower to check each vacant structue in your community. Most FD's have enough problems just dealing with the day to day BS, calls, inspections, BS medicals and such.

    In the inner city/ghetto areas, you would have to check them every single day, sometimes 2 or 3 times in a day...

    Do you really think the owner of an abandoned property is going to leave a contact number and answer the phone at 03:something hours so we can ask him what his intentions are for the property?

    Boarded up buildings, contrary to popular belief, do not self combust... and rats and roaches do not have opposable thumbs to strike a match, either.

    If it is feasible (obviously, something fully involved would be an automatic defensive operation), do a quick primary search, extinguish, overhaul and do a through secondary search if the building is stable. If it is not, have a crew stand by as the demo company carefully picks up each piece of debris looking for victims.

    If you just assume that there is nobody inside, and the demo crew finds a body or two inside, trust me... when the $hark$ and barracuda$ of the law firm$ $mell the blood in the water, they will be circling the FD looking for million$ of dollar$ for the $urvivor$.

    The $hark$ and barracuda$ hired by the property owner, who will, all of a sudden give a fat rat'$ rump about "the property" will be in line for a law$uit or a $ettlement.

    The brothers of Flint are geting hurt more often because they are fighting fires in ghetto buildings every day... duh!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 08-27-2007 at 06:44 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    I disagree Catch .... in this situation, if that report ended up on my desk and I was responsible for making changes I would be irresponsible if I didn't look closely at the situation. These types of problems can sometimes be transitional as areas go through decay and deprivation. I would suggest that in 5-15 years time the problems may have moved elsewhere.

    No this would call for some immediate action in my opinion. At least take a closer look.
    You miss my point. I didn't say wait 5+ years. I said the data needs to be over that period of time. You go back 5+ years, then run the numbers. You cannot base trends off of one year.

    You're right, if you're responsible for making changes, you've got to act. Why not make that act telling the report writer "where's the rest of the information? When you get all of the statistics and over a longer time span so we can see true trends, bring it back to me."

  25. #25
    EuroFirefighter
    Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    In your utopia, you may have the time and manpower to check each vacant structue in your community. Most FD's have enough problems just dealing with the day to day BS, calls, inspections, BS medicals and such.

    In the inner city/ghetto areas, you would have to check them every single day, sometimes 2 or 3 times in a day...
    My Utopia is more than two decades of inner city firefighting Chief where I have dealt with similar ghetto problems as described. We set up special task forces to deal with the ever growing problem as a primary means of protecting our firefighters.

    How do you deal with such decay in your area Chief?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. HOUSTON walked away from this contract
    By Firewalker1 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 05-17-2007, 12:34 AM
  2. SOP's for Volunteer FD
    By rumlfire in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-01-2006, 10:35 PM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 01-23-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-24-2005, 08:28 AM
  4. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 08:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register