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    Default Go back to Sweden

    Yes I mean you Dr. Svensson.
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    Just because he's got a different opinion about how we do things, he's not welcome here? Who's to say he doesn't have a point about some of the issues?

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    Talking Swedish firefightering

    From Sweden, a Critical View of U.S. Firefighters


    Updated: 08-28-2007 11:52:21 AM

    "I will be impolite," Stefan Svensson PhD, Swedish firefighter and Research and Development Engineer told attendees gathered at his session on international firefighting at Fire Rescue International in Atlanta.

    "I will probably tell you things you don't like to hear."

    Svensson has reason to be blunt. Sweden has had only one firefighter death in the last seven years compared to the United State's line-of-duty total of 84 this year so far.

    Of course, it's also important to note that the population of Sweden is just over 9 million compared to the United State's population of over 302 million. And that at last check, (2005) the U.S. Fire Administration found there were about 1,136,650 firefighters in the United States compared to Svensson's total of about 16,000 for Sweden.

    Despite those numbers, Sweden's record is impressive. Especially when one considers that, according to the U.S. Fire Administration, almost half of last year's 106 line of duty deaths came not from horrible accidents at the scene of raging fires - but from heart attacks.

    Svensson did not mince words as he compared the way firefighters in the United States do their jobs, compared to those in his country.

    One such difference, he said, was the way U.S. firefighters see themselves.

    He said American firefighters take pride in being heroes - sometimes putting a heroic act ahead of a safe one. He said American firefighters think it is heroic to die saving someone else's life. But, Svensson contends, "it's not ok to die from anything but old age."

    "We aren't heroes - it's a job," he told attendees. "It's not a mission - it's a job."

    Svensson said firefighter training in the two countries is also very different. He said Swedish firefighters are given training grounded in science enabling them to understand the fire.

    "We want them (firefighters) to understand physics, chemistry and how to handle basic situations," he said.

    He said instead of teaching 'use a lot of water on the fire, the more the better,' firefighters should be trained to ask 'why is it burning and how do we put it out in a safe way?'

    American firefighters, Svensson said, are interested in ways of getting out of trouble, rather than avoiding trouble in the first place.

    Svensson compared Rapid Intervention Teams to seatbelts. He said just as a driver may say 'I have a seatbelt, it's ok to go faster,' a firefighter may engage in dangerous behavior on the fireground because they have the Rapid Intervention Teams to help get them to safety.

    "(There is) a dangerous situation and you are sending more people inside," he asked. "That's stupid."

    Svensson proposed some solutions to the problems he pointed out. First, he proposed that higher-ups institute monetary punishments for firefighters who are not safe. He suggested fines ranging from $100 to $900 for firefighters who fail to wear personal protection equipment, venture into places they ought not on the fire ground or fail to take a medical examination. He also suggested a bonus for firefighters who use SCBA.

    He said American firefighters must encourage safe behavior, rather than heroic deeds, change the way they train, and change unrealistic attitudes about firefighting.

    "It's not about getting to the scene at any cost. It's about getting home."


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO-IJ7EYwDE
    Last edited by coldfront; 08-28-2007 at 01:02 PM.
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    I just read the article; Mikey, I'm with you.

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    Always a day late and a dollar short!

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    This idiot should stick to making furniture and meatballs.



    We had a few sweedish firemen vist the firehouse...they told us flat out they don't see fire and they don't do what we do. We traded explanations of how they operate and how we operate. They were from the 4th Largest city in Sweeden

    Needless to say we come from very different worlds and this moron with a doctorate doesn't know the first thing about American firemen and what we do or don't think.

    It is rare to see such ignorance from a Doctor...but not unprecedented.

    I too will be impolite Dr. You are an ignorant coward who wouldn't amount to the biggest POS in my deptartment! F-%* off!

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-28-2007 at 01:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfront View Post
    From Sweden, a Critical View of U.S. Firefighters


    Updated: 08-28-2007 11:52:21 AM

    "I will be impolite," Stefan Svensson PhD, Swedish firefighter and Research and Development Engineer told attendees gathered at his session on international firefighting at Fire Rescue International in Atlanta.

    "I will probably tell you things you don't like to hear."

    Svensson has reason to be blunt. Sweden has had only one firefighter death in the last seven years compared to the United State's line-of-duty total of 84 this year so far.

    Of course, it's also important to note that the population of Sweden is just over 9 million compared to the United State's population of over 302 million. And that at last check, (2005) the U.S. Fire Administration found there were about 1,136,650 firefighters in the United States compared to Svensson's total of about 16,000 for Sweden.

    Despite those numbers, Sweden's record is impressive. Especially when one considers that, according to the U.S. Fire Administration, almost half of last year's 106 line of duty deaths came not from horrible accidents at the scene of raging fires - but from heart attacks.

    Svensson did not mince words as he compared the way firefighters in the United States do their jobs, compared to those in his country.

    One such difference, he said, was the way U.S. firefighters see themselves.

    He said American firefighters take pride in being heroes - sometimes putting a heroic act ahead of a safe one. He said American firefighters think it is heroic to die saving someone else's life. But, Svensson contends, "it's not ok to die from anything but old age."

    "We aren't heroes - it's a job," he told attendees. "It's not a mission - it's a job."

    Svensson said firefighter training in the two countries is also very different. He said Swedish firefighters are given training grounded in science enabling them to understand the fire.

    "We want them (firefighters) to understand physics, chemistry and how to handle basic situations," he said.

    He said instead of teaching 'use a lot of water on the fire, the more the better,' firefighters should be trained to ask 'why is it burning and how do we put it out in a safe way?'

    American firefighters, Svensson said, are interested in ways of getting out of trouble, rather than avoiding trouble in the first place.

    Svensson compared Rapid Intervention Teams to seatbelts. He said just as a driver may say 'I have a seatbelt, it's ok to go faster,' a firefighter may engage in dangerous behavior on the fireground because they have the Rapid Intervention Teams to help get them to safety.

    "(There is) a dangerous situation and you are sending more people inside," he asked. "That's stupid."

    Svensson proposed some solutions to the problems he pointed out. First, he proposed that higher-ups institute monetary punishments for firefighters who are not safe. He suggested fines ranging from $100 to $900 for firefighters who fail to wear personal protection equipment, venture into places they ought not on the fire ground or fail to take a medical examination. He also suggested a bonus for firefighters who use SCBA.

    He said American firefighters must encourage safe behavior, rather than heroic deeds, change the way they train, and change unrealistic attitudes about firefighting.

    "It's not about getting to the scene at any cost. It's about getting home."


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO-IJ7EYwDE
    the video posted,is great,funny one.

    now concerning the article,and from my point of view it is a total lack of respect towards the US fire service.each country has its way of dealing with firefighting.

    if he wanted to "help" someone with his article and his advice,for me,after reading it,i just think he is a man who claims to know everything.
    "sauver ou périr"

    "courage et dévouement"

    2 french mottoes in french fire service.

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    HotTrotter, you aren't Sweedish, are you?!?!?!?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfront View Post
    From Sweden, a Critical View of U.S. Firefighters


    Updated: 08-28-2007 11:52:21 AM

    "I will be impolite," Stefan Svensson PhD, Swedish firefighter and Research and Development Engineer told attendees gathered at his session on international firefighting at Fire Rescue International in Atlanta.

    "I will probably tell you things you don't like to hear."

    Svensson has reason to be blunt. Sweden has had only one firefighter death in the last seven years compared to the United State's line-of-duty total of 84 this year so far.

    Of course, it's also important to note that the population of Sweden is just over 9 million compared to the United State's population of over 302 million. And that at last check, (2005) the U.S. Fire Administration found there were about 1,136,650 firefighters in the United States compared to Svensson's total of about 16,000 for Sweden.

    Despite those numbers, Sweden's record is impressive. Especially when one considers that, according to the U.S. Fire Administration, almost half of last year's 106 line of duty deaths came not from horrible accidents at the scene of raging fires - but from heart attacks.

    Svensson did not mince words as he compared the way firefighters in the United States do their jobs, compared to those in his country.

    One such difference, he said, was the way U.S. firefighters see themselves.

    He said American firefighters take pride in being heroes - sometimes putting a heroic act ahead of a safe one. He said American firefighters think it is heroic to die saving someone else's life. But, Svensson contends, "it's not ok to die from anything but old age."

    "We aren't heroes - it's a job," he told attendees. "It's not a mission - it's a job."

    Svensson said firefighter training in the two countries is also very different. He said Swedish firefighters are given training grounded in science enabling them to understand the fire.

    "We want them (firefighters) to understand physics, chemistry and how to handle basic situations," he said.

    He said instead of teaching 'use a lot of water on the fire, the more the better,' firefighters should be trained to ask 'why is it burning and how do we put it out in a safe way?'

    American firefighters, Svensson said, are interested in ways of getting out of trouble, rather than avoiding trouble in the first place.

    Svensson compared Rapid Intervention Teams to seatbelts. He said just as a driver may say 'I have a seatbelt, it's ok to go faster,' a firefighter may engage in dangerous behavior on the fireground because they have the Rapid Intervention Teams to help get them to safety.

    "(There is) a dangerous situation and you are sending more people inside," he asked. "That's stupid."

    Svensson proposed some solutions to the problems he pointed out. First, he proposed that higher-ups institute monetary punishments for firefighters who are not safe. He suggested fines ranging from $100 to $900 for firefighters who fail to wear personal protection equipment, venture into places they ought not on the fire ground or fail to take a medical examination. He also suggested a bonus for firefighters who use SCBA.

    He said American firefighters must encourage safe behavior, rather than heroic deeds, change the way they train, and change unrealistic attitudes about firefighting.

    "It's not about getting to the scene at any cost. It's about getting home."


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO-IJ7EYwDE
    Hey Doc! We also have NFPA 1403, which forbids the use of accelerants in setting a controlled burn. So nice to see you guys follow safety procedures.
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
    Member, IACOJ.
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    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

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    This guy is not an idiot. This guy did not insult fire fighters. He expressed his opinion of the American fire service in general. This is nothing more than a cultural difference.

    Of course Swedish FF do not see the fire that many of you do. They are one of the most aggressive nations in the world when it comes to preventing fires. Their fire fighting culture is different than ours. For example, their training includes alot of information about the science of fire. The purpose is to understand fire from a scientific standpoint. I realize that science class is not as exciting as humping hose into a living room fire, but there is certainly some validity to a science-based training curriculum. Look at some of the LODD incidents over the past several years, in at least some of these cases, a more thorough understanding of the science of fire may have prevented the incident. I'm not giving examples because that is not the point.

    The point is that many US fire fighters are totally ignorant to fire dynamics. Fire is not a "beast" as some describe it. It is a completely predictable scientific phenomenon. Given the same exact conditions, it will burn the same way every time. Understanding the science of fire and recognizing that there has never been two fires with the same conditions ever, would allow the fire fighter to possibly apply the science to the situation and recognize when something bad is likely to happen. You can all think of LODD's or even fires where this was an issue.

    Some of you are no better than street thugs. When someone disagrees with you or speaks ill of the fire service, you translate that to be "disrespect" and want to fight.

    For the record, I believe that fighting fire in the US using Swedish methods would not work. I also believe that the good doctor does not have a good understanding of the traditions of the US fire service. I also believe he is clearly an advocate for the Swedish fire service.

    But I do believe there may be some validity to some of his points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    This guy is not an idiot. This guy did not insult fire fighters. He expressed his opinion of the American fire service in general. This is nothing more than a cultural difference.

    The point is that many US fire fighters are totally ignorant to fire dynamics. Fire is not a "beast" as some describe it. It is a completely predictable scientific phenomenon. Given the same exact conditions, it will burn the same way every time. Understanding the science of fire and recognizing that there has never been two fires with the same conditions ever, would allow the fire fighter to possibly apply the science to the situation and recognize when something bad is likely to happen. You can all think of LODD's or even fires where this was an issue.

    Some of you are no better than street thugs. When someone disagrees with you or speaks ill of the fire service, you translate that to be "disrespect" and want to fight.

    For the record, I believe that fighting fire in the US using Swedish methods would not work. I also believe that the good doctor does not have a good understanding of the traditions of the US fire service. I also believe he is clearly an advocate for the Swedish fire service.

    But I do believe there may be some validity to some of his points.
    VERY well said George!

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    Well all be, another foreign know-it-all expert on American firefighting. Although he has never once fought a fire in a large urban setting here in the United States.
    Our firefighting would be a simple walk in the park if we didn't have row housing, tenement laws, balloon construction, grandfather clauses allowing code deviation, and the list goes on. Hell, if we all had concrete block houses such as Sweden, there wouldn't be the need for a fire department-let the contents burn out, sweep them up, put in a new window and move in.
    I guess a country that has never had a hero would stoop to the level of bashing others.
    Given the same exact conditions, it will burn the same way every time.
    Well I guess then there would be no need for fire investigators; oh wait, when was the last time you saw the exact same conditions?
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 08-28-2007 at 01:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Well I guess then there would be no need for fire investigators; oh wait, when was the last time you saw the exact same conditions?
    Why didn't you quote one more sentence?

    It is a completely predictable scientific phenomenon. Given the same exact conditions, it will burn the same way every time. Understanding the science of fire and recognizing that there has never been two fires with the same conditions ever, would allow the fire fighter to possibly apply the science to the situation and recognize when something bad is likely to happen. You can all think of LODD's or even fires where this was an issue.
    So much for intellectual honesty, huh?

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    European tactis would never work here. If everything we ever went to was built in masonry construction in the last 50 years we MIGHT be able to get away with the gun-shy attitude, but in America you'd be signing the death warrants of thousands and thousands of citizens and the demolition orders for even greater numbers of buildings. And I'm sorry, I won't apologize for taking pride in the bravery of my brother firefighters or pretend like I'd look at my job the same way if we just stood outside and squirted water in through the windows.
    In time

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Hell, if we all had concrete block houses such as Sweden,
    Yep!! You sure do know a lot about Sweden!!!! Intellect??!!!

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    SSDD. Two different cultures,two different ways of doing business.As far as fires being the same under exact conditions,I agree.IN A LAB! NEVER,and this is one time I can say never,are fire conditions the same in an accidental or incendiary fire.There is always a "wild card".Whether or not that card gets played is random.Knowing the science of fire definitely helps you in extinguishing it.But European building construction is different than ours,therefore the methods used are different.We lose way too many during the course of a year.But all the players need to be proactive and on the same page to lower the numbers.Sometimes,despite your best efforts,a tragic event will put you or yours in that position.But taking no preventative measures only increases you chances.To the dark side.There is no easy answer but there is hope.Follow the lessons of those who have gone before and you will be on your way to lowering those numbers.Permanently. T.C.

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    Imma go grab me some popcorn, this is gonna be at least a 4 pager.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firehat87 View Post
    European tactis would never work here. If everything we ever went to was built in masonry construction in the last 50 years we MIGHT be able to get away with the gun-shy attitude, but in America you'd be signing the death warrants of thousands and thousands of citizens and the demolition orders for even greater numbers of buildings. And I'm sorry, I won't apologize for taking pride in the bravery of my brother firefighters or pretend like I'd look at my job the same way if we just stood outside and squirted water in through the windows.
    LOLLLLL!!!!!!!

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    Cool Yes Indeed!

    Yes indeed! Dr. Svensson is absolutely right! It's ashame no U.S. Fire Chief or Administrator had the political guts to stand up and admit the same thing. Dr. Svensson is entitled to his opinion and every firefighter in the United States should listen to his advice. Those who ridicule or lend a deaf ear to his words volunteer or career, will be the very ones who perish next.

    So those of you at the top who make the big money to make the big decisions, put your budget to good use and plan a trip to Sweden and visit Dr. Svensson and learn something!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccangemi View Post
    Yes indeed! Dr. Svensson is absolutely right! It's ashame no U.S. Fire Chief or Administrator had the political guts to stand up and admit the same thing. Dr. Svensson is entitled to his opinion and every firefighter in the United States should listen to his advice. Those who ridicule or lend a deaf ear to his words volunteer or career, will be the very ones who perish next.

    So those of you at the top who make the big money to make the big decisions, put your budget to good use and plan a trip to Sweden and visit Dr. Svensson and learn something!
    EXCELLENT!!!!! Welcome

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    Svensson compared Rapid Intervention Teams to seatbelts. He said just as a driver may say 'I have a seatbelt, it's ok to go faster,' a firefighter may engage in dangerous behavior on the fireground because they have the Rapid Intervention Teams to help get them to safety.

    What a crazy statement!I guess we should do away with the seatbelt laws because of speeding related accidents.Get real!What a crazy comparison. If you make comparison to seatbelts as a reason for driving faster ,then indeed you may be labeled as suffering from a lack of intelligence.RIT is not a evil thing that places firefighters at risk by promoting increased risk taking.BULL****!
    Last edited by coldfront; 08-28-2007 at 02:05 PM.
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    Svensson compared Rapid Intervention Teams to seatbelts. He said just as a driver may say 'I have a seatbelt, it's ok to go faster,' a firefighter may engage in dangerous behavior on the fireground because they have the Rapid Intervention Teams to help get them to safety.

    That statement does have somewhat of a point, especially when you deal with a very small department. One of the career departments around here only has enough staff to respond with 5 people, then they start calling all us volunteer departments for help.

    I really believe that your tactics will be at least a little different if you have enough personel to have a RIT team standing by. That department operates just a little more defensively until someone arives that can establish a RIT.

    So yes, I agree that as the US fire service we tend to be a little more "balls to the wall" because we know that there are guys standing by to help us out. But I don't agree that this has to be a bad thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfront View Post
    From Sweden, a Critical View of U.S. Firefighters


    One such difference, he said, was the way U.S. firefighters see themselves.

    He said American firefighters take pride in being heroes - sometimes putting a heroic act ahead of a safe one. He said American firefighters think it is heroic to die saving someone else's life. But, Svensson contends, "it's not ok to die from anything but old age."

    "We aren't heroes - it's a job," he told attendees. "It's not a mission - it's a job."

    I wonder how many civilians they kill in Sweden with THAT attitude? They're big on not even making entry. Explain that to the family of all the people you refuse to rescue, because it meant you may have to risk the life of a firefighter.

    Most Jakes in the USA don't buy into the hero thing... We save lives because we are trained and equipped to do so.

    Firefighting is NOT just a job!!! If it was we could all turn it on and off as we went back and forth to work. We wouldn't spend anytime outside of our "job" trying to better ourselves through training, education and even discussion.
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

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    How about we look at a few point "Dr." Svensson has here.

    Svensson has reason to be blunt. Sweden has had only one firefighter death in the last seven years compared to the United State's line-of-duty total of 84 this year so far.

    Of course, it's also important to note that the population of Sweden is just over 9 million compared to the United State's population of over 302 million. And that at last check, (2005) the U.S. Fire Administration found there were about 1,136,650 firefighters in the United States compared to Svensson's total of about 16,000 for Sweden.

    Despite those numbers, Sweden's record is impressive. Especially when one considers that, according to the U.S. Fire Administration, almost half of last year's 106 line of duty deaths came not from horrible accidents at the scene of raging fires - but from heart attacks.
    I will not argue with this. We need a more serious take on cardiovascular health. Each FF needs to be able to pass a physical. If you do not pass, you have 6mo. to show significant improval, if you fail to do so, you are no longer a Firefighter, have fun looking for a new job. It is absurd some of the people we have fighting fires.


    Svensson did not mince words as he compared the way firefighters in the United States do their jobs, compared to those in his country.

    One such difference, he said, was the way U.S. firefighters see themselves.

    He said American firefighters take pride in being heroes - sometimes putting a heroic act ahead of a safe one. He said American firefighters think it is heroic to die saving someone else's life. But, Svensson contends, "it's not ok to die from anything but old age."

    "We aren't heroes - it's a job," he told attendees. "It's not a mission - it's a job."
    I do NOT see myself as a hero, and shy away from that title as much as possible. And I do not know anyone who touts themselves as a hero, and if I do, then I will NOT get on the truck with them, they are a liability to themselves, the others on the truck, and the Dept in general.

    Svensson said firefighter training in the two countries is also very different. He said Swedish firefighters are given training grounded in science enabling them to understand the fire.

    "We want them (firefighters) to understand physics, chemistry and how to handle basic situations," he said.

    He said instead of teaching 'use a lot of water on the fire, the more the better,' firefighters should be trained to ask 'why is it burning and how do we put it out in a safe way?'
    Florida's Firefighter II, or the standard for career firefighters, is HEAVY in fire science, what burns, how it burns, why it burns, and what action puts it out, and why it puts it out. Controlled burns demonstrate this in real time, and not on books. Gotta disagree with the Doc here.

    American firefighters, Svensson said, are interested in ways of getting out of trouble, rather than avoiding trouble in the first place.

    Svensson compared Rapid Intervention Teams to seatbelts. He said just as a driver may say 'I have a seatbelt, it's ok to go faster,' a firefighter may engage in dangerous behavior on the fireground because they have the Rapid Intervention Teams to help get them to safety.

    "(There is) a dangerous situation and you are sending more people inside," he asked. "That's stupid."
    So he has a crystal ball the tells him when he will get in trouble, and how to avoid said trouble? Wow. I want me one of them.
    Truth is, ***** happens, and we need to be prepared to deal with it. That is why we have RIT, and to not have RIT is akin to driving with no seatbelt. You can be the safest firefighter/driver out there, but its the others that you gotta look out for, the building/the other drivers. Great analogy Doc, too bad it goes against you.

    Svensson proposed some solutions to the problems he pointed out. First, he proposed that higher-ups institute monetary punishments for firefighters who are not safe. He suggested fines ranging from $100 to $900 for firefighters who fail to wear personal protection equipment, venture into places they ought not on the fire ground or fail to take a medical examination. He also suggested a bonus for firefighters who use SCBA.

    He said American firefighters must encourage safe behavior, rather than heroic deeds, change the way they train, and change unrealistic attitudes about firefighting.

    "It's not about getting to the scene at any cost. It's about getting home."
    I can deal with fines, make it like click it, or ticket. But a bonus for wearing SCBA? Has this moron been watching "Backdraft" for his research? Every call, the pack comes off with me, if there is smoke, there is mask. Duh.

    I think that he had some good ideas, but he threw in some things just to inflame us. Like FFFRED said, stick to the meatballs and furniture, we know what is wrong, we have been saying it for awhile, but the good ol boys refuse to change.
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
    Member, IACOJ.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-DTRT-RFB-KTF
    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

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    [QUOTE=MarcusKspn;856199]Svensson compared Rapid Intervention Teams to seatbelts. He said just as a driver may say 'I have a seatbelt, it's ok to go faster,' a firefighter may engage in dangerous behavior on the fireground because they have the Rapid Intervention Teams to help get them to safety.

    That statement does have somewhat of a point, especially when you deal with a very small department. One of the career departments around here only has enough staff to respond with 5 people, then they start calling all us volunteer departments for help.

    I really believe that your tactics will be at least a little different if you have enough personel to have a RIT team standing by. That department operates just a little more defensively until someone arives that can establish a RIT.

    QUOTE]

    Duh! NFPA and OSHA require them to be more defensive until they have more people on scene.

    The whole RIT thing.... maybe we should just do away with it. I mean, it causes people to be agressive, and you certainly can't send others into a deangerous situation to rescue downed firefighters anyway. There's no need for MAYDAYs... Instead of RIT training, we should just focus on yoga. That way when you get in trouble, you can just bend over and kiss your *** goodbye.

    Fu(king Idiot!!!!!!
    "...there isn't a firefighter in the free world who is forced to join this profession." -John Norman

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