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    Trotter: Go back and re-read your rationale for vacant vs. occupied. I think I know what you were intending to say (that's scary) but you made a real mess of it. It seems as someone else pointed out that you are a computer commando whose only skill is cut and paste, though you don't even understand what it is you're inserting.

    On the enclosed structures vs. open: It wasn't 84% of the 444 fatalities, it was 84% of the deaths that occurred in structure fires (84% of 223). For most of us this is no surprise, as an open structure tends to pose far less risk with better vent profiles and ingress/egress points.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 09-02-2007 at 11:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Trotter: Go back and re-read your rationale for vacant vs. occupied. I think I know what you were intending to say (that's scary) but you made a real mess of it. It seems as someone else pointed out that you are a computer commando whose only skill is cut and paste, though you don't even understand what it is you're inserting.
    I was responding to someone who asked if the building is occupied by a buch of workers is it vacant. Which probably lead to the confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    On the enclosed structures vs. open: It wasn't 84% of the 444 fatalities, it was 84% of the deaths that occurred in structure fires (84% of 223). For most of us this is no surprise, as an open structure tends to pose far less risk with better vent profiles and ingress/egress points.
    I'm glad to see you took the time to actually read the report. And thanks for pointing out that I used the wrong number But the point remains, 84% are dieing in these enclosed structures. That tells me that we need to look at what is being done in these things and modify our approach to fighting those fires. So it isn't really a surprise, but rather proof that we have to look at these types of structures as containing a much higher risk level. It needs to be considered when looking at the risk vs gain.

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    [QUOTE=ullrichk;858279]
    Around here it is not uncommon to run into insulated drop ceilings, either for temperature control or sound attenuation or both. Your TIC may not be telling you the full story.
    QUOTE]

    This is very common in our area as well. In fact we just enclosed a carport at the firehouse to make it a workout room. We had a drop ceiling put in, and the guy who installed it put insulation above the drop ceiling.

    You made some good points.

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    but don't damn the technology for lack of training. The TIC is an tool, that can be misused. Have you seen more "rekindles" from failure to open up, after using the camera? We have not, though I'm sure you've had more total opportunities. But its a training issue.

    Don't get me wrong, the technology is very good. We just haven't figured out a way to keep the guys from forgetting the basics.
    I watched as countless companies did the same thing at a recent inservice, and that was to miss dummies hidden under wooden pallets while doing a search. Almost all of them were so engrossed with the TIC, that they forgot to feel things out with their hands. Guys seem to do the same thing when entering a building, as well. They forget to maintain contact with a wall for orientation, and get turned around when the camera battery runs out, or fails entirely.
    I have also heard similar stories from guys at a recent course I took, relating with their own departments. I should have worded what I said better, but it almost seems like guys are more consistant with their search patterns and orientation without using the cameras.

    Nothing beats a camera for finding a blown ballast, though.

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    Popping a tile does absolutely NO harm. But, like has been previously stated might provide you with a wealth of knowledge about your current situation.


    When it comes to using a TIC for a search. I like to do a quick scan then return to the "old school" style of fumbling around in a systemic approach. I feel it gives me a better grasp of where ive been and where im going. I have also noticed that when relying solely on the TIC for orientation and search, member will be hard pressed to be able to discribe a single floor plan after searching it. Proves difficult when you need to call for help and discribe where you are for a crew comming in that might not have a TIC.

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    Cool I have a dumb question.

    Our new says we will get more water thru a 2" plastic hose than a 2 1/2 due to less friction loss because its plastic. Also easier to drag, Storz connectors make it faster, etc. therefore, pound for pound it is a better all around choice He wants to take all the 1 3/4 off the truck and use the 2" plastic for interior lines.

    Can anyone either back this up or argue against it? I have looked all over the net and cannot find the appropriate chart to argue one way or the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Wouldn't your basic TIC tell you exactly what you have. A TIC without a doubt will let you know the extent of the extension behind the tiles. And now that they are less than $10K and I believe under $5k, they should be standard equipment on every truck. Next thing that is needed is the training.
    Can you provide us with the $105,000 ($155,000 if we put them on our ambulances also) to put them on our remaining engine companies? Or maybe you can take our council into allowing us to get them. It is easy to say they need to be on every truck, but paying for them is another issue altogether.

    On our first alarm structure fire we have 4 TICs on the scene (2 ladders, 1 heavy rescue, 1 on the squad.) Why would we need more? It takes little time to displace a ceiling tile and look into the void space. The TIC is also not going to show you smoke above the ceiling tile 100% of the time. Remember smoke only registers on the TIC when it is hotter than the ambient air temperature.

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    LEX, if you are from LEX, KY just tell Bullard you guys are going to bid'em and because of your proximity to Bullard they'll probably give you BOGO (buy 1 get 1). Kinda figure thats why you guys still wear their helmets with better helmets on the market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    I watched as countless companies did the same thing at a recent inservice, and that was to miss dummies hidden under wooden pallets while doing a search.
    Not to beat a dead horse here, as I do agree that we have allowed ourselves to become complacent due to the TIC but... The inservice you describe would prove to be far less likely to reveal a victim than in the real situation due to the lack of heat. A dummy will be very close to the same temp as the pallets, making them look like one large pile a crap, as compared to a lie victim with exposed skin and objects that absorb heat a varying rates. Again, I do agree the camera isn't the 100% answer, we must use it in conjunction with techniques to maintain orientation. As well as feeling piles of stuff, bedding, in closets, etc. Philly describes the way we also teach/preach camera use. Scan and move to the objects/areas to move objects and feel through things. I'm sure there is some truth to us being further in quicker, because the TIC lets us get there.

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    I suppose we have moved off topic a bit here but, I find the comments on TICs surprising.

    Our officers carry the TIC during searches and use it as a tool to speed up the primary search by staying at the door of the room , top of the hall, wherever he has the best advantage to “see” the area being searched. The rest of crew performs a standard search of the room, the officer giving details as needed to speed the search along. This gives us the advantage of additional safety and speedier primary searches.

    In cases of overhaul anyone can use the TIC to search for hot spots after the walls and ceilings have been pulled.

    We haven’t yet become complacent (I don’t know, maybe that fact that I just said that means that we are) because of the TIC but I'll take what has been said as a wakeup call that we need to be vigilant.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    A dummy will be very close to the same temp as the pallets, making them look like one large pile a crap, as compared to a lie victim with exposed skin and objects that absorb heat a varying rates. Again, I do agree the camera isn't the 100% answer, we must use it in conjunction with techniques to maintain orientation. As well as feeling piles of stuff, bedding, in closets, etc. Philly describes the way we also teach/preach camera use.
    Hey, no dead horse here. That was really the point I was trying to make. A couple of years ago, we went in to search for an occupant, and we were pushed out by fire. When we reentered, the victim could not be seen in the debris on the floor because the whole room was close to the same temp. The guy on the camera never saw our victim, we found her the old fashioned way.
    The dummy was close to the same temp as all of the surrounding material, and proved a valuable lesson, at least that's what we hoped.

    We also teach the oriented search, but it just seemed like guys in general depended on the camera too much. We try to beat it into everyone's head, but I think the short bus stops here more often than elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaeld327 View Post
    Our new says we will get more water thru a 2" plastic hose than a 2 1/2 due to less friction loss because its plastic. Also easier to drag, Storz connectors make it faster, etc. therefore, pound for pound it is a better all around choice He wants to take all the 1 3/4 off the truck and use the 2" plastic for interior lines.

    Can anyone either back this up or argue against it? I have looked all over the net and cannot find the appropriate chart to argue one way or the other.
    PM me and I will give you about a decades worth of personal use info on nitrile rubber 2 inch hose.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Anyway, wasn't the Deutche Bank building vacant?
    Wal mart is hiring, you clueless doofus.

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    Talking

    So this means you like 2"? or are against it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaeld327 View Post
    So this means you like 2"? or are against it?
    In our particular situation I like it. Do I believe it is right for everyone? No.

    Research, testing and then applying it are the keys to success.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Hey, no dead horse here. That was really the point I was trying to make. A couple of years ago, we went in to search for an occupant, and we were pushed out by fire. When we reentered, the victim could not be seen in the debris on the floor because the whole room was close to the same temp. The guy on the camera never saw our victim, we found her the old fashioned way.
    The dummy was close to the same temp as all of the surrounding material, and proved a valuable lesson, at least that's what we hoped.

    We also teach the oriented search, but it just seemed like guys in general depended on the camera too much. We try to beat it into everyone's head, but I think the short bus stops here more often than elsewhere.
    Just a thought here. But if the victim is the same temperature of the fire aren't they pretty much cooked? That being the case, why pull them out until after the fire is out? After all, I cook my turkeys at 350 F. Point is, you use the TIC as a tool, not as the only method. I can walk in with a TIC, look around, and see the hot spots rather quickly. With a TIC I will see that the entire drop ceiling is hotter than it should be. You still push a tile down and do the old fashioned things. But you have a better idea of where to look and the extent to which things have degraded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post
    Can you provide us with the $105,000 ($155,000 if we put them on our ambulances also) to put them on our remaining engine companies? Or maybe you can take our council into allowing us to get them. It is easy to say they need to be on every truck, but paying for them is another issue altogether.

    On our first alarm structure fire we have 4 TICs on the scene (2 ladders, 1 heavy rescue, 1 on the squad.) Why would we need more? It takes little time to displace a ceiling tile and look into the void space. The TIC is also not going to show you smoke above the ceiling tile 100% of the time. Remember smoke only registers on the TIC when it is hotter than the ambient air temperature.
    Looks to me like you are using a budget of many millions of dollars. By my calculation you need 21 more cameras. Given that quantity you could negotiate a very good price. A pumper cost about $250K, a quint cost $1,000,000. Given the cost of this equipment and the equipment that goes on the truck as well, the TIC is a very small portion of the entire truck. Perhaps rather than replace that 10 year old truck you purchase equipment instead, and replace the truck a year or two later. I know, it/s much more fun to get a new truck rather than a necessary piece of equipment for the old truck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal
    You left out FDNY.

    Certain individuals here like to spout off about how perfect fidney is with their "140 years of tradition and damn anything we didn't think of here first" attitude but let's not forget that they still manage to kill firefighters (in vacant buildings) just like everybody else now and then.

    Yes, that's harsh. However, there are some FDNY members who need a reality check now and again.

    [Flame in PMs preferred. Why waste everyone else's time?]
    Okay, I have gone round and round with some of the FDNY guys myself but I have never felt the need to post this kind of completely unnecessary inflammatory crap about LODD's. My opinion is this post went over the line and serves no purpose other than attempt to enflame passions from the FDNY guys.

    I wonder how you would react if I made reference to your FD after an LODD about how perfect YOU thought you were...

    FyredUp
    The reason you've never felt the need to do this is you are a mature adult with some self respect, intelligence and common courtesy. Unlike this *****hat.

    Don't look now Deputy Marshal...your inferiority complex and low self-esteem is showing itself.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Just a thought here. But if the victim is the same temperature of the fire aren't they pretty much cooked? That being the case, why pull them out until after the fire is out? After all, I cook my turkeys at 350 F. Point is, you use the TIC as a tool, not as the only method. I can walk in with a TIC, look around, and see the hot spots rather quickly. With a TIC I will see that the entire drop ceiling is hotter than it should be. You still push a tile down and do the old fashioned things. But you have a better idea of where to look and the extent to which things have degraded.

    Hottrotter you are right about one thing but so wrong about others. You are correct that you can cook a turkey at 350 F but you are wrong about the rest.

    It may be only 130 F or so on the floor where that victim is, and you know what that victim will probably be 130 F as well. That means that if they are in a bed or covered in some light debris that they won't show up on the TIC. At 130 F they still have a very good likelyhood of surviving depending on how much smoke they have taken in.

    If there is a light smoke condition below the drop ceiling or in the case of Boston from the fire in the back of the kitchen, your TIC won't show you that the tiles are hot. That TIC will show you the temp of the smoke and the heat current coming from the back of the kitchen. You still have all of that heat, smoke and fire above the drop ceiling that is hiding from you and waiting to bite the **** out of you.

    Just agree that the TIC is just another tool, and that you or any FF needs to have a very secure hold on the basics before you start to play with the new toys. The basics will bring you home.

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    Default deja vu all over again

    To answer the question posed in the opening post of this thread, I do thnk we are seeing a trend. A clearly disturbing one. No one can adequately discuss the recent events of Charleston and Boston (Rest brave souls) since they are still under investigation. However, NONE of what is happening is new. It's the same old sh!* that has been going on for decades. Buildings fall down after a time when they are burning. If you are in them when they fall, you stand a good chance of finding out about the "afterlife". I still do not know why EVERY person that wants to go into these places hasn't read Brannigan (it's obvious that some haven't - no names, you know who you are) and every other resource available. KNOW YOUR ENEMY! IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM KILLING YOU! ! ! Please, please learn all you can, and then use that knowledge on every incident. Somebody needs you more than that building. Come home safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFDLT1 View Post
    Hottrotter you are right about one thing but so wrong about others. You are correct that you can cook a turkey at 350 F but you are wrong about the rest.

    It may be only 130 F or so on the floor where that victim is, and you know what that victim will probably be 130 F as well. That means that if they are in a bed or covered in some light debris that they won't show up on the TIC. At 130 F they still have a very good likelyhood of surviving depending on how much smoke they have taken in.

    If there is a light smoke condition below the drop ceiling or in the case of Boston from the fire in the back of the kitchen, your TIC won't show you that the tiles are hot. That TIC will show you the temp of the smoke and the heat current coming from the back of the kitchen. You still have all of that heat, smoke and fire above the drop ceiling that is hiding from you and waiting to bite the **** out of you.

    Just agree that the TIC is just another tool, and that you or any FF needs to have a very secure hold on the basics before you start to play with the new toys. The basics will bring you home.

    I agree that the person could be at 130 F, my point was that if he starts to get really hot, and we all know what that is, then chances are we are too late. In other words, if the entire room is at 200 or higher I suspect we need a body bag. Ever see what boiling water does to skin? It's just something we need to keep in the fore front of our minds. We have the best gear going wit hour fully protective bunkers and all. Chances are we won't feel the same heat our victim feels.

    Not sure about the smoke thing. I have been told that the advantage of the TIC is that it can see through the smoke. Time for a little research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Coming from the person who didnt understand one of the most basic premises for fighting a fire in a taxpayer, Im glad it wasnt you who said it.
    Damn, I hate it when taxpayers catch fire. They're hell to put out without a piercing nozzle. :P
    Nobody ever called the fire department for doing something smart.

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    I do have a question though. The steel trusses will fail rapidly in a fire situation. I would expect that the steel trusses would last longer than the engineered wood trusses. Is this the case? Also, why do the steel trusses fail?

    Prediciton - there will be a 50-50 mix of good responses and ball busting comments.

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    Default trusses

    Not an expert here but I'll give it a shot
    I would expect a steel truss to take longer to fail but me more catastrophic when it does. The reason a steel truss fails is the heat weakens one truss and it bends, a truss systems requires the help of a neighboring truss to support part of it's weight so when that first truss bends it adds more weight back to its neighboring truss which causes that to fail and so on and so on until the whole roof or a large part of it fails. I know wood trusses have been known to fail within minutes of the start of a fire so I would expect a steel truss to take sightly longer to reach temp of bending.

    A thought that should start a good fight...... IF the ceiling tiles are holding heat and causing a backdraft condition wouldn't popping the first tiles in the door wouldn't that cause conditions to go back quicker? Wouldn't opening a vent hole above them be a better option to get the heat and superheated gases out? obviously roof conditions would determine if this is possible or not.



    I have not read Brannigans book yet but plan to order it soon. Can anyone suggest other books along the same lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newboot View Post

    A thought that should start a good fight...... IF the ceiling tiles are holding heat and causing a backdraft condition wouldn't popping the first tiles in the door wouldn't that cause conditions to go back quicker? Wouldn't opening a vent hole above them be a better option to get the heat and superheated gases out? obviously roof conditions would determine if this is possible or not.
    Good question. Certainly this is a potential issue if the backdraft condition is not recognized, which is quite possible. Hopefully the ceiling in question will give indications that it is that hot above it (such as smoke pushing down and being pulled back in, sooty black around the tiles where there was any air leak, both of which hopefully are visible from outside where any small opening will also show the same indicators). But given a possible backdraft scenario, unless you never go in, at least by popping the tile at the door you're in the best survivable place to be. While venting high might be preferable, first we must recognize from outside the potential. Often these conditions overhead may not be such to cause backdraft, but may be heating the trusses to their point of failure.

    The only obvious backdraft condition I witnessed at a true incident was just like the textbook says, every nail holes, and door had smoke puffing out and being drawn back in, black sooty windows. The roof crew took a skylight and the smoke pushed up and out fast and hard followed by ignition (of the smoke) about 10 seconds later.

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