1. #1
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    Default Rural support vehicle

    Hi. I am new to the forum and realize that there is a wealth of information to be gotten here. So, I'm all ears, or eyes I guess.

    I work for a large metropolitan department. My station handles an urban area and a growing rural area. Our answer to the rural response is a 2,000 gallon tanker. We are looking at dry hydrants as a possible solution, but that is a political issue.

    I am looking into a support vehicle for rural firefighting. Our apparatus carry 1,000' of 5" hose and 750 gallons of water. I would like to spec a vehicle (not a brush truck) that would carry accessory items. I would like to see a portable pump that can be placed in a swimming pool; a folding tank (I guess) and a LDH hose roller cart. We recently had a fire where we ended up laying 3,000' of 5". The unit would also carry some rehab equipment.

    Have I given you enough info in which you might suggest possible equipment for this unit, or do you need more info? Thanks for your time.

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    how about a rescue truck (http://www.lifestarrescue.com/rescue_trucks.htm) from that site looks like a light or medium rescue might work??

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    Thanks for the response. I am more interested in the equipment for the vehicle than the actual vehicle. I apologize if I misled you by the topic of the post.
    I guess a portable pump would work, but what kind? The closest we can get to a water source is less than 20' as we only carry two sections of hard suction hose. We just recently took delivery of a brush truck that morphed into an all weather response vehicle. I have seen talk about a tubro draft but I do not know what that can do for us. Right now I have the attention of my higher ups because of the dollar loss we've experienced from fires we we had no water. Thanks for all of your help.

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    What prevents you from getting to your water sources? I will admit, I'm a bit confused by your statement "closest we can get to a water source is less than 20' as we only carry two sections of hard suction hose."

    If you can get within 20' you should be good to go. If you can get within 30', why not add another section of suction? I do know departments that use floating pumps with some success, but they're limited by flow. If you can bury a dry hydrant closer to the road, you would probably be better off.

    I'm not sure what kind of dump tanks you use or are looking for, but a snap-tank or something similar may be an option, especially if you're limited in storage room. We've got a Husky j-tank (another version of the snap tank) as a back-up or addition to our 2,500 gallon folding tank on our pumper/tanker. It folds up into a bag about 1'x1'x4' and fits nicely in a compartment without taking up a lot of room.

    There's a slew of other things youcould carry. Do you respond anything as a "Service Company" for ISO purposes? If not, you could carry some of the equipment they require there and gain some points, since you're taking the truck anyway.

    Maybe a bit more info on what exactly you're wanting to do with this truck?

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    Read thru www.isoslayer.com Lots of good ideas and how to improve ISO rating in non-hydranted areas.

    Links to Rattlesnake Co FD; Annaville TX FD and (if they still have bandwidth for the month) Fallon, NV FD.

    Search here on turbodraft you'll find several threads. Add one or more to a pumper (with booster tank) and you can pull several hundred gpm from a distant open water source (not so good in the winter when the water gets thickish on top). See video at isoslayer

    Another (expensive) option is a vacumn tanker.

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    How about the CTV concept? You could carry a pod specific to your response need.

    www.ctvfire.com

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    Sorry. The reason we can only get witin 20' of a water source is because we can only carry two sections of hard suction hose. The newest trucks no longer have 6" hard suction hose, but 3" instead. There isn't any room on our rigs for new equipment. We are do it all agency. If you needed a short splint for a broken pinkie then we have it. Most of our homes have swimming pools behind them. The dry hydrants we have go right into the ground into something similar to a giant cistern. I have one of the few rigs that is set up to operate in rural and urban areas. I will not tell you what kind of truck it is so I don't get bombarded with rocks and stones.

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    I have a brush truck coming to my station. Much more than what I expected and much more expensive than most would pay for a pumper. I could get a hold of a spare battalion chief vehicle - pick up with covered body - but what equipment should I have in it?

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    If you only have a 3" suction and no foldatank you need to reboot in rural fire operations.

    You already carry LDH/supply hose I assume for your city business? You don't use hard suction with a turbodraft, Adding a turbodraft on the tailboard, not a big footprint, and you can reach those swimming pools

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    Quote Originally Posted by pb1403 View Post
    I have a brush truck coming to my station. Much more than what I expected and much more expensive than most would pay for a pumper. I could get a hold of a spare battalion chief vehicle - pick up with covered body - but what equipment should I have in it?
    So is the brush truck going to be your rural support truck? No offense, maybe it's because of sleep deprivation, but I'm getting confused.

    Let me ask this: are you looking to convert a current truck into this rural support truck or buying a new one to do the job? What other kind of apparatus do you have rolling to these rural fires?

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    The brush truck is not the rural support vehicle. It is staffed with on duty crews from the engine or the ladder. What I'm looking for is what kind of equipment should I have that would literally convert an urban department into one that can handle a fire in rural areas. I like the turbo draft. I'm thinking about a hose rolling cart to help us pack the LDH. We laid out close to 3,000' the other day.

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    The standard response to any fire in a house is three suppression units, a rescue unit (ems) and a battalion chief. If it is in an area where there are no hydrants then a tanker (2000 gallons) is added to the assignment. The engines carry 750 gallons of water and the aerials carry about 500 gallons of water. So, you might have 3000 gallons of water on the initial assignment. Considering most fires are handled with less than a tank that should be enough water. But, if that isn't readily available then the first and second due expend their water (between initial and back up lines) before the tanker arrives on scene. This then forces an offensive attack to go defensive and the need for a dependable water source. This would trigger the response of the support unit which would be driven to the scene by one firefighter to unload whatever equipment you guys think it should have to help us. Thanks.

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    Default Rsv

    My Dept serves a suburban/rural area. We have 1 quint, 1 engine, and (2) 2,000 gallon tanker/tenders for fire responses. Any structure fire in that rural area we call mutual aid for water immediately. You may need to try something like a Pumper/tanker combo. If you're looking for that, I'd suggest a high capacity pump for relay and drafting (1,750 gpm+) and a 2,000 gallon tank. We speced our engine with a 1,750 gpm pump in case we got into the situation of drafting or relay pumping. It has a 6" suction on the rear with a 10' section of hard suction and a strainer foot attached in a slide thru comp. right next to the suction port. Being in the lovely state of Mn we decided an enclosed mid mount pump panel was the way to go and we put a camera on the rear and the monitor above the operator panel so the pump operator could watch the level of the dump tank when used. We also carry 1,000 ft 5", 800 ft 2.5", and have 2 low speedlays with 1.75" and a front bumper speedlays of 1.75". All 1.75" are 150 ft. We have a small light tower and other "engine co" accessories on it. Oh ya, it's mounted on a Spartan Metro Star chassis with a 750 gallon tank and foam pro system. For more info go to www.customfire.com and look under new deliveries, engines (or pumpers) and Rockford. The unit price was $397,000.00.

    Both of our tankers have 2,ooo gallon dump tanks as well. 1 of the two has pump and roll capabilities. I believe the pump is a 750 gpm pump. That tanker also carries 600 ft of 5", 200' of 2.5", and has 2 1.75" crosslays and is mounted on an International 2 door chassis. The second tanker is just a water hauler mounted on a Sterling chassis with a 2,000 gallon poly tank. No extra equipment on here. It responds to mutual aid "Water only" calls.

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    Have you thought about retrofitting an older used 4 wd bumper pumper ? Find you one with a bad tank , strip off -(or refurb ) the old bed -- install a LDH reel --- get some 30 ft squirrel tails -- add a turbo draft -- a small honda porta pump -- a folda tank -- etc. There are a bunch of old F series Ford bumper pumpers out there dirt cheap.

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    Default Rural Water Supply

    Greetings:
    Attachment is resource list for our 9 member mutual aid coalition located in Northern MN.

    We have quite a few watertenders available to respond with most usable size 1500 to 2000 gal; anything bigger takes too long for turn around, anything smaller just doesn't hold enough water. Larger tenders are also too big and heavy for our narrow, hilly and [often] unpaved or icy roads.

    Every tender carries at least one 2100gal folding frame type drop tank. Drop tanks are set up in diamond pattern to allow more access points as well as more operator room.

    Some tenders also have 500gpm semi-portable gas engine driven pumps that can be dropped off at fill sites.

    We also have two 500gpm semi-portable gas engine driven pumps that are set up with 5" intake and 5" discharge. These pumps deliver about 800gpm.

    We have a dedicated water supply pumper with a 750gpm front mount pumper which works well for open water drafting. For dry hydrants, any available pumper will be assigned that task using 5"LDH discharge to fill points available at ground level. We did it that way to discourage staff from crawling around on top of wet or icy and slippery tenders. 750gpm front mount pumper fills at 1200gpm to 1400gpm; larger pumps do better. Point is, hook up and detaching often takes longer than filling.

    All members are committed to using 5"Storz fittings although we carry various adapters for out of district use. In addition, everyone uses 5"LDH and flexible lightweight suction hose has become standard is 5" or 6" sizes.

    We carry various jumbo wyes, valves and siamese appliances all set up for 5"Storz. Floating strainers are always used in open water sources.

    Some dry hydrants and static tanks have jets to speed up pumping operations.

    Timing and traffic control are very important so we set up a water supply sector with separate dedicated radio channel for water supply operations.

    Class A foam is used on almost all fires -- both NAFS and CAFS depending on available equipment.

    We have been refining our system since 1989 and new ideas are always popping up.

    Larry Davis with Rural Firefighting Institute has been very helpful; here is contact info:

    http://www.rfi411.org/

    Good luck!
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Quote Originally Posted by ponebutton View Post
    Greetings:
    Attachment is resource list for our 9 member mutual aid coalition located in Northern MN.
    ...Good luck!
    Hey Mn how do you handle the thick water problem in January? You carry ice augers or saws for lake use with your floating strainers (how keep them from being frozen in)? Or do you just use dry hydrants?

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    I want to thank you all for your great ideas and experiences with your own departments. I work for a large metropolitan system. There is no purchasing of used equipment, unfortunately. In fact, I was hoping to have some say into the specs on our brush trucks, but was notified when the truck was in the production stages of its status

    So, because the fire loss has finally hit into a more populated area, the pressure is on the department to find a solution. We have farm fields that we access to drop well pipes (aluminum pipe with a stainer and 4.5" NST) that we connect our hard suction hoses for drafting. The ony problem is that if the agricultural well is adjacent to the roadway then the well is unusable due to the terrain.

    There has (in my opinion) no thought been given at all to rural water supply. The tankers have 2000 gallons but a 1250 pump. There aren't any discharges that allow you to dump the tank expediently. Even if you could, we don't have portable folding tanks to drop the water. I called about the turbo draft today.

    Orange County Fire Dept (in Orlando) is looking into using them. I am thinking that if my department had them, they would probably be best to have at the drafting site as opposed to having them on the tankers. Now that I see what you guys have in terms of a pump with greater capacity, I can see that this is much more than an old rescue filled with wildland gear.

    So, if you had a turbo draft, you wouldn't really need a portable pump unless you were dealing with a remote fire like rubbish or grass?

    Again, thanks for your responses.

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    To neiowa:
    Some use ice augers -- both powered and manual to open the hole. Some prefer manual type because they always start while others prefer chain saws.

    Some prefer "ice hydrant" which is really just a 3-4 ft dry hydrant with a strainer on bottom, some legs to keep it from dropping through the hole and a 90 degree elbow with 5"Storz on top. Some prefer to just draft with a barrel strainer stuffed down through a hole in ice. Both methods work but ice chips and slush need to be cleaned away from strainer.

    To pb1403:
    Drop tank needs to be carried on tender to fire scene where it is set up near pumper and then filled by tender using dump valve. Tender then leaves scene to refill at water fill site. It would not do any good to store drop tank at fill site.

  19. #19
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    pb1403

    Larger city in our area is similar situation to you. They have outfitted one of their reserve pumpers for rural use. Only pumper in the fleet that has hard suction, foldatank, adapter fittings to NH so they can hook up to the rest of the world, etc. When there is a rural fire the crew at the main station sends two FF out with the reserve pumper. The other 1/2 of the engine crew takes the lone tanker (also somewhere around 2000gal). Then the big city depends on the little ole mutual aid FD to come with the tankers/water needed to actually fight the rural fire.

    Might be the concept you're working looking for. If your FD is of any size I'd guess you have a reserve unit. 4 sections of 6" suction (get the new light weight PVC) with lowflow strainers. A couple 2100gal foldatanks and a couple turbodraft or portable pumps.

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    Default One idea for using a dump tank at a fill site

    Quote Originally Posted by ponebutton View Post
    To neiowa:
    Some use ice augers -- both powered and manual to open the hole. Some prefer manual type because they always start while others prefer chain saws.

    Some prefer "ice hydrant" which is really just a 3-4 ft dry hydrant with a strainer on bottom, some legs to keep it from dropping through the hole and a 90 degree elbow with 5"Storz on top. Some prefer to just draft with a barrel strainer stuffed down through a hole in ice. Both methods work but ice chips and slush need to be cleaned away from strainer.

    To pb1403:
    Drop tank needs to be carried on tender to fire scene where it is set up near pumper and then filled by tender using dump valve. Tender then leaves scene to refill at water fill site. It would not do any good to store drop tank at fill site.
    I read where a department was using a hydarnt with only 500 gpm - all they had.

    So they used a 5" soft suction to the hydrant to officers side intake, then setup dump tank on drivers side and used hard suction on drivers side to draft. Then they let the water flow from the hydrant, through the intake manifold into the dump tank. When they would go to fill a tanker via ldh, they would have the 500 gpm available plus the water in the dump tank. Always wanted to try this - might at our next drill night. Most of the hydrants in our area are poor.

    Our new SOG has our engine (1000/1250 gpm) starting attack while our Pumper/Tanker (2500/1250 gpm) lays a 5" from the ldh dishcharge to officers side intake on the engine. Then they drop the dump tank from tanker and setup the engine to draft on the drivers side intake. Once the dump tank is setup, they open up the drivers side intake and let the water from the tanker flow into the dump tank. At same time 2nd tanker should be there also dumping and setting up 2nd dump tank.

    We went to this after trying to always dump the first load off the tanker - but had problems with running out of water before we got our dump tank setup. Lot faster to pull 50 ' of 5" between trucks and then setup the dump tank. Also getting a new pumper/tanker with a 1250 gpm pump allowed us to change our methods.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pb1403 View Post

    There has (in my opinion) no thought been given at all to rural water supply. The tankers have 2000 gallons but a 1250 pump. There aren't any discharges that allow you to dump the tank expediently. Even if you could, we don't have portable folding tanks to drop the water. I called about the turbo draft today.

    So, if you had a turbo draft, you wouldn't really need a portable pump unless you were dealing with a remote fire like rubbish or grass?

    Again, thanks for your responses.
    I am going to "assume" you are not use to rural drafting and the pit falls you may find. These are some of the things we have found but are by no means complete. Just trying to add to your things to consider list. So I hope this helps......

    Couple things to consider: You need water to make the Turbo-draft work. If you have the engine having 750 gallons of water on board, you may use some/all of it up on fire attack and not have enough water to get the Turbo into operation. (We don't have one but theory of operation says you need water to make it work.) So even if you get one, you may want to think of plan B being a portable pump. They can have the 3" suction on the intake which you already have some of that available.

    Portable pumps are not all the same. So if you want high volume to supply a structure fire scene you are not talking the same as the wildland low volume high pressure.... two needs = two different pumps.

    With swimming pools you may want to think floating portable. I think you can get some higher gpm's out of them due to almost zero lift. Again look at your situation not someone elses.

    Folding Tanks: It sounds like you have to pump off, so look into a LDH siamese so you can supply from multiple "tankers" into the folding tank. Even to make a continuous supply while trucks are connecting and dis-connecting thier lines. This LDH line could/should be into a "worm" that steps up and over the side of the tank and into the bottom. Can be made with heavy (schedule 80?) PVC 4-6" adapting to a storz connection. Or another similar solution....

    Also you need to think on the size of the tanks, where you store them and how many people it takes to get them into operation. If you get bigger than a 2100 gallon you might need more than 2 people.

    Check out the various suppliers I think they post the LxWxH of the various sizes so you will know if one would fit some where on your truck(s).

    Check out multiple tanks with jet siphons to move the water from tank to tank. The attach to your 6" hard suction and work like the turbo-draft in theory.

    Strainers are very dependant on what type body of water you are drafting from. Low flows have different designs so be carefull. Some are more for just folding tank ops not for putting in the stream along the road. Others could do both. If you have muddy bottoms that you may sink into, look at a "box" strainer that will slide on top and keep it up. These have a loop to attach a rope to help pull it out and keep it off the bottom if you have enough depth. You do not want to suck up mud so your strainer can make or break you. Large floating strainers work too... we have some. Think multiple tools for the job at hand. (finish hammer to sledge hammer and types in between.)

  22. #22
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    Default Look at Fox pump

    There is some sort of ultra high pressure fire pump which is portable I saw on a TechDrive truck in Atlanta couple of weeks ago. It was pretty sweet they transport it inside their rescue truck.

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