1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    (note - it's standard practice here to go with uncharged)
    As it probably is in most places where people have to do it often.

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    The majority of our handlines are 1 3/4", we have 2 1/2" handlines off the rear of the engines with smooth bore nozzles, our front line engine on structure fires has the 1 3/4 handlines like the rest, and we also have a 2" handline for when we need alittle more water. Like it's been said before, the majority of the time you wont need anymore than 1 or 2 1 3/4 handlines if used properly.

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    Well we do carry two short sections for the pony lines in the standpipe packs.........but thats it!

    Stay Safe

  4. #29
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    Okay, food for thought...a 2.5 is heavy and cumbersome to drag up to a 2nd floor in a residential sturcture..but..does everyone forget about advancing the line dry? I've done it before with a limited crew and the fire seated on teh 2nd floor...it's hard, but it's much easier than trying to drag a charged 2.5 up the stairs.

    Department policy states any line going interior must be charged before entering the structure.

    It works for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbott0489 View Post
    i've done training using a 2.5 for basment fires. Due to the lack of ventilation and higher heat conditions, it was thought greater gpm's on the fire would be benifitial. It worked... when you had 8 people moving the line, but not much better than an 1.75 would in the same exact situation.

    It really is more about how you use your water than how much you flow.

    How many times do you see people not hit the ceiling first? How often do you see a fog pattern come out of a nozzle rather than a nice hard straight stream? How often do you see ventilation not being preformed where and when it should be to coincide with the extinguishment of the fire? How many times do you see the nozzleman flow water, then shut it down, repetedly doing so and not aggressively making a knock?

    Simple conclusion: Would it work? Yes, of course. Is it practical? No. But every situation is different...
    You can't speak for or appreciate the difference until you are actually working a real fuel load, not 2 racks of hay. I will also caution you when using the example you do to move a deuce and a half. 3 or 4 good motivated ff's can smoke 8 lazy unmotivated ones any day of the week.

    I would consider ammending your statement to say its about how much water you flow AND how you use it. You can have five star nozzle handling technique, but not enough agua might just send you to a deep dark place and vice aversa.

    Handline selection will always be dependent on things such as location and extent of fire, type of construction, wind, and staffing and a few other factors. At every fire, all of them must be considered before any hose is pulled.

    Be safe young Jedi.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Okay, food for thought...a 2.5 is heavy and cumbersome to drag up to a 2nd floor in a residential sturcture..but..does everyone forget about advancing the line dry? I've done it before with a limited crew and the fire seated on teh 2nd floor...it's hard, but it's much easier than trying to drag a charged 2.5 up the stairs.

    Department policy states any line going interior must be charged before entering the structure.

    It works for us.

    And if all you ever fight are fires in single family dwellings this is perhaps a defensible tactic. Unfortunately, it is entirely foolish and energy wasting to charge a hoseline at the door of a 480 by 250 foot building if the fire is deep within the structure and you can SAFELY advance to a point close to the fire before charging the line. I know you will tell me a million reasons why this is wrong but it is a tactic used everyday in this country.

  7. #32
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    We have decided BIG IS GOOD

    Our primary attack line now is a 6 foot by 3 foot line we call "Da Door Filla"

    Smack the door in, plug in the hose and let er go.

    Gets real good results real fast.

    Go put your pussy 2 1/2" lines away kiddies.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Most of our residental structures are single story affairs. A small percentage are 2 stories as land is cheap here and it has been customary for folks to build wide rather than high.

    We do have a few wide-rises (a grocery store and 3 schools) and there has been talk of formally amending this policy for these structures only.

    The other commercial structures can easily be had with a 200-300' handline and for safety reasons, it probably makes more sense to not change the policy with the exception of the schools, and maybe, the grocery store.

    As I understand it, this policy is long standing was was designed to minimize the decisions which needed to be made by our younger personnel. As we fight even fewer fires now, it makes sense to me to stick with it as we have folks that have been on 4-5 years and still would be considered "inexperienced" by some standards.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-20-2007 at 10:38 AM.

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    never ceases to amaze me, atleast youre good for something.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

  10. #35
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    We stretch dry as far as we can into every type of building we have. I always thought that dry hose is easier to move than charged. Granted, I have been on a truck for 11 years now, so maybe I'm wrong, maybe something changed along the line somewhere.

    We don't have any problem with 1.75, we carry some 2.5, but stretch the reduced most of the time.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our residental structures are single story affairs. A small percentage are 2 stories as land is cheap here and it has been customary for folks to build wide rather than high.

    We do have a few wide-rises (a grocery store and 3 schools) and there has been talk of formally amending this policy for these structures only.

    The other commercial structures can easily be had with a 200-300' handline and for safety reasons, it probably makes more sense to not change the policy with the exception of the schools, and maybe, the grocery store.

    As I understand it, this policy is long standing was was designed to minimize the decisions which needed to be made by our younger personnel. As we fight even fewer fires now, it makes sense to me to stick with it as we have folks that have been on 4-5 years and still would be considered "inexperienced" by some standards.
    How about training instead of policies that tie the hands of more experienced personnel. What if an experienced officer arrives at residence with a whole floor going? He can't stretch the 2.5" cause the policy says it must be a 1.75"? Or the closet fire in the school that you don't want to stretch the 300 2.5" for as by the time your crew gets it in there the fire has extended out of the original room? In the time it takes to institute policies and ensure all members understand them you can train them on ADULTS and tell them, that yes most often the 1.75" will be the best choice for single family dwelling, but when in doubt think like ADULTS and take the big boys line. Conversely tell them when you don't know whats burning in a commercial building that the 2.5" would be the best choice and then note that when they're certain the fire is small and hasn't extended that the 1.75" is OK? While this isn't a substitute for experience, if you make hard fast rules on which lines get pulled in which order you're bound to get bit. Experience is great when its been good experience and not when the dept has been doing it wrong forever.

    BTW I'm not going to explain ADULTS to anyone here. If you want to know look elsewhere than in the forums where you get an easy out answer. Read something, learn more than just the answer. It's too easy to just see the answer and move on. Knowledge is power. Know when to look something up, why, where and how. There is a lot of good info here as well as misinformation. As the medics say: confirm it in two leads.

  12. #37
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    Speaking of "ADULTS"...

    Tip for 2" or 2-1/2" lines
    A = Advanced Fire
    D = Defensive Operations
    U = Undetermined Location (of the fire)
    L = Large Building
    T = Tons of Water
    S = Standpipe Operations

    courtesy, Fredericks, McCormack, Klett.....

    William Carey
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarey View Post
    Speaking of "ADULTS"...

    Tip for 2" or 2-1/2" lines
    A = Advanced Fire
    D = Defensive Operations
    U = Undetermined Location (of the fire)
    L = Large Building
    T = Tons of Water
    S = Standpipe Operations

    courtesy, Fredericks, McCormack, Klett.....

    William Carey
    Hey BCarey, now I would have thought after you're posts in another thread, you'd be the last person to give them the easy out. I'd like to see some of these Computer Chief's read some Fredricks, McCormack, et als... There's usually more to be learned from a question than just the answer.

  14. #39
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    Some days you have to search out the good in things, help out if you can.
    Other days you just have to stay logged off.
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

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    You have to look at what your "residential structure" is and the room sizes associated with it. It is hard to maneuver the "big line" through a residential setting. Defensive ops, exposure protection, commercial fires=great. With residential fires you are dealing with compartmentalized fires so the volume of fire so to speak is usually well within the capabilities of an 1 3/4" line. Even if you have several rooms off at once, you can still only work one room at a time and advance to the others. A 2 1/2 will definately increase the knock down and decrease the knock down time but not significantly enough to compensate for lugging that thing through a living room. However-refer back to the room sizes, some new developments with 5,000 sq ft + homes have rec rooms bigger than a mom and pop market.

    JMO.

  16. #41
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    In my department we have on our fist due engine 2 150' tripple crosslays of 2 1/2" for primary attact, a 50 front jumpline in a double dougnut roll for car or trash type fires. left rear discarge is 200" of 3", mainly for exterior, and right is 4" for our portable master stream. our 1000ft of 5" supply rests between both. on engine 1 (older second run truck, an 86 Pumper/tanker) we have 1200ft of 5", and 2 cross lays of 2 1/2'', but has no rear discharges.

  17. #42
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    I'm probably just reiterating what has already been said here... BUT...

    a 1 3/4 line will handle most of your house fires. Its easy to deploy even when charged and puts out enough water. If you can not put the fire out with it, you can contain it long enough to have a second line brought in.

    A 2.5 inch line uncharged is still a beast to get up stairs and such but it can be done. But, one of the things you've got to realize is that IF you dont have a supply line, WHY?! If you scounder your water... your just gonna roast a bit

    But, it depends on the house. A large mansion, once it gets going, a 1 3/4 line will just be ****ing in the wind. If there is a large amount of acclerants involved or a large fire load, then by all means, go big.

    You cant always tell or know whats in the house but asking ANYONE there might be able to help out. If its under construction, one of the workers might have knocked over paint thinner or tile laquer next to a heater and boom....

    with that combo, your lil 1 3/4 will most likely be useless.

    But to haul around a 2.5 charged through a house... knock yourself out, especially if all you got is 2 on the hose

  18. #43
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    RFD ..

    My post on the department policy does not refer at all to line sizes. The current operating policy simply states that any line stretched will be charrged at the door.

    There is discussion about changing this policy for the schools, which may be more effecivly handled by a 3" gated to (2) 1.75' lines or the grocery store, which may be better handled in the same way.

    2.5" lines are options that are rarely used here, and honestly, were rarely used on any of the departments on which I have served. While I understand thier advantages, I also understand thier weaknesses, and require training to be effective. I fully agree they are a good choice on commercial structures, but many of the officers and firefighters here, and many other places, are creatures of habit and pull the handline on every fire.

    As I stated, we have very few 2 story residenatl structures and a dry stretch would really not save any time as generally, these structures are fully chatrged if there is a working fire on arrival.

    This policy is a safety policy designed to protect our younger firefighters on making the decision when they need to charge the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    This policy is a safety policy designed to protect our younger firefighters on making the decision when they need to charge the line.
    I understand the theory behind your policy, but I believe that the concensus would be that it would be smarter to spend more time training on this critical decision, as the work load in many places isnt such that you are able to give newer FF's street expierence or days past. By simply saying it must be charged every time, how will they learn to make that vital decision, especially if there arent the number of fires that we used to see? Food for thought.

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