1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    12

    Default Larger gauge hose for interior attack

    There seems to be a lot of discussion on my dept. about increasing the use of 2 1/2" hose for interior attack. While I realize the knockdown power is greater I believe problems with maneuverability will outway the benefits especially when used in cramped residential situations. The 1 3/4" hose we currently use gets the job done most of the time. Any thoughts?
    "Echoes of Torment" available now at bookstores everywhere.
    www.kevinhelmold.com

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    fireslayer1237's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Wa
    Posts
    204

    Default

    on a residential fire I don't think there is hardly ever any reason to use anything bigger then 1.75" hose interior. you can get 200 GPM out of it, easier to deploy, handle, and manuver. a 2.5" would be very difficult to work with in a residential fire while interior.

    The only time I would use a 2.5" is for surround and drowns on residentials. or if in my dept. case we are low on manpower show up with 2 on the scene and can wait up to sometimes 8 min. before the next unit shows up. in this case I pull a 2.5 and do an aggressive exterior attack. usually will knock down the majority of the fire and has so much flow it won't push the fire too much. then I follow up with a 1.75 to go interior once additional resources show up.
    FOOLS
    RFB-KTF-DTRT

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    I think using both makes for a fine happy medium. 2nd line in the door is a 2.5" backup line. If the fire becomes more then the 1.75 can handle, the 2.5 is there to kick its ***. Just gotta remember to send in a new backup line.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    carolinablue's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    42

    Default

    I wouldn't suggest doing an interior attack on your average house fire with anything above a 1 3/4 inch line. The 2.5 inch line has always been used for exterior attacks.

  5. #5
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    We will only use 1 3/4" hose for a residential fire.

    If you want more blast for your buck, investigate CAFS. That 2 1/2" is a bear to navigate through a house.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    343

    Default

    1-3/4" is usually plenty at my department. If you really need more, what about a 2" with a 1" smooth bore?

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    mcaldwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Panorama, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    3,022

    Default

    I think you have to qualify it with more information.

    Are you talking about standard stick frame single family homes well under 3000 square feet per floor? The 1 3/4 should be plenty for interior work.

    If you have a lot of McMansions at or over 4000 square feet per floor you may very well want to talk about 2 or 2 1/2 inch lines. Those houses are not only bigger, but have a lot more open spaces and room to move. The handling may not be as much of an issue, and the extra water may be needed.

    And of course, for industrial and even light commercial, 2 1/2 should be a front-line tool.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CFDKevin View Post
    There seems to be a lot of discussion on my dept. about increasing the use of 2 1/2" hose for interior attack. While I realize the knockdown power is greater I believe problems with maneuverability will outway the benefits especially when used in cramped residential situations. The 1 3/4" hose we currently use gets the job done most of the time. Any thoughts?
    What district are you in? I'm in the 4th and haven't heard anyone talking about bigger lines. I know about a year - year and a half ago E-38 and I think E-95 had some 2" with smoothbores to test out. I tried it out and didn't think much of it.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    I think using both makes for a fine happy medium. 2nd line in the door is a 2.5" backup line. If the fire becomes more then the 1.75 can handle, the 2.5 is there to kick its ***. Just gotta remember to send in a new backup line.
    We don't use "back-up" lines per se - if I understand what you mean by that.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    When I say backup line, I mean a 2.5" that goes in behind the attack line for backup and protection. Primary function is protection of the attack team, stairwells, egress, etc. If the attack team needs bigger water, they can move up and nail it quickly. If the backup line becomes overly involved in attack, another backup team should move in to replace them.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    I used 2" on a past department, and while it certainly had great knockdown power, it was honestly too much hose for most residental operations, especially if you ran short-staffed.

    It would take a good, hearty 3 man hose team to get it up to the second floor effectivly plus a 4th man at the door.

    We used it as our only attack line, and it was definatly more line than you needed for you garden variety car and dumpster fire.

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2

    Default 2-1/2" too big for average residential

    We had an old chief a number of years ago that ordered a 2-1/2" line into a small (aprox 800 sq. ft.) story and a half. Its next to impossible to maneuver that in a small space! A lot of cussing on the fireground, everyone was p***d off.

    One or two 1-3/4 attack lines is all that's needed on your average residential homes, we also lay backup lines. We now also have a Vindicator nozzle on our primary engine if more volume is needed. Still 1-3/4" but double your volume.

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12

    Default

    We have 1"3/4 crosslays on our engine, plus a trash line.
    We carry 800 ft. of 3" in the bed, with a 2" YZ bundle, and another Z bundle of 2." Each bundle is 200 ft.

    Just remember: Little fire:Little Water
    Big Fire: Big Water

    stay safe.

    -jacob

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    Frmboybuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Cornfields
    Posts
    524

    Default

    Jacob said it best....It depends on the situation you face. If you have a big, deep seated fire, an 1.75 line can cause as much harm as it can good.
    Buck
    Assistant Chief/EMT-B

  15. #15
    It looks hot in there
    PureAdrenalin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    452

    Default

    Okay, food for thought...a 2.5 is heavy and cumbersome to drag up to a 2nd floor in a residential sturcture..but..does everyone forget about advancing the line dry? I've done it before with a limited crew and the fire seated on teh 2nd floor...it's hard, but it's much easier than trying to drag a charged 2.5 up the stairs.
    'Adversus incendia excubias nocturnas vigilesque commentus est"

    www.vententersearch.com

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    PureAdrenalin, listen, some guys are barely willing to go interior at all when they see fire...now you want them to go in with an uncharged line?








    (note - it's standard practice here to go with uncharged)
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jersey / Newark, DE
    Posts
    41

    Default

    i've done training using a 2.5 for basment fires. Due to the lack of ventilation and higher heat conditions, it was thought greater gpm's on the fire would be benifitial. It worked... when you had 8 people moving the line, but not much better than an 1.75 would in the same exact situation.

    It really is more about how you use your water than how much you flow.

    How many times do you see people not hit the ceiling first? How often do you see a fog pattern come out of a nozzle rather than a nice hard straight stream? How often do you see ventilation not being preformed where and when it should be to coincide with the extinguishment of the fire? How many times do you see the nozzleman flow water, then shut it down, repetedly doing so and not aggressively making a knock?

    Simple conclusion: Would it work? Yes, of course. Is it practical? No. But every situation is different...

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    the corner of walk and don't walk
    Posts
    396

    Default

    Most engines in my dept. carry a 250' 2 inch line with a stack tip. I personally don't have a lot of problem pulling/advancing it. If we are running garden apts, it is normally pulled to the top floor/cockloft area. Normally we do try and stretch it dry, but i have had pump operators get the bell sh*ts and charge it early (twice while still on my shoulder). It can put out a lot of fire. Also, if we are running a commercial building, it is a good initial due to the flow/capabilities of the stack tip. We normally don't have the manpower to run a 2 1/2 inch line (two of us on the engine most times). Actually at my station, we don't even have a single stitch of 2 1/2 inch hose!

    Stay Safe

  19. #19
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,740

    Thumbs up Uh Huh................

    Quote Originally Posted by cap6888 View Post
    Most engines in my dept. carry a 250' 2 inch line with a stack tip. I personally don't have a lot of problem pulling/advancing it. If we are running garden apts, it is normally pulled to the top floor/cockloft area. Normally we do try and stretch it dry, but i have had pump operators get the bell sh*ts and charge it early (twice while still on my shoulder). It can put out a lot of fire. Also, if we are running a commercial building, it is a good initial due to the flow/capabilities of the stack tip. We normally don't have the manpower to run a 2 1/2 inch line (two of us on the engine most times). Actually at my station, we don't even have a single stitch of 2 1/2 inch hose!

    Stay Safe

    Yeah, What he said. We do have some 2.5 though, about 500 feet of it. We have a Long Line for going to the rear of some of our Condo buildings, where we might have a stretch up to 600 feet. For this, we have a "Bundle load" of 200 ft of 2.0 on top of a bed of 2.5 The bundle is connected to the 2.5, and when the O.I.C. has enough line to the entrance, He/She radios the Driver to "Break it and charge it". We rarely have Water related problems, BUT, We run a "Backup Line" in behind the Attack Line on all Fires. The backup Line is, By S.O.P., always the next size larger than the Attack Line. (Yes, I've run a 3 inch Hand Line, and Yes, we have the Tips for it, usually a 1.1/4 Smoothbore. )


    Side Note - Hey Cap, Get off the Computer and go to work...... (Practice your 800 numbers, or something)............
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  20. #20
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    2 1/2" on a residential structure as primary attack? Haven't done it since my POC days. 99.9% of all our fires are knocked with an 1 3/4" and another that size for back up. A big reason is a quick response time afforded being full time, a huge advantage that can't be overlooked. Even a well involved structure is mainly contents for the first minutes. A third line is also pulled, from another engine or the squad, but mainly for stairwell protection if the truck is working above or the awe ***** line if things go south.
    With good nozzle control, and good basic skills, it's amazing the amount of fire two 1 3/4" lines can douse.
    Now if we pull up and there is a well involved garage with an exposure, 2 1/2" is a great choice. Must mostly that line is for external ops. Another option for the IOC or IC can use.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    We also use the 2.5" for long stretches into something like a school. There is no such thing as a standpipe around here. 2.5" goes in the front door to some area deep inside the building as needed. There is a "high-rise pack" with 1.75" hose and a gated-wye on female end. That can be immediately connected the end of the 2.5" and its like having a stand pipe wherever we want it. We could also run two hand lines off it with that gated wye given we can support that kind flow with it.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    31

    Default Let the fire decide

    I only read several posts so perhaps this was said already. But its quite simple in reality. A certain volume of fire puts off so many BTU's. To extinguish it you must apply water at a flow rate the equals or exceeds the amount required to absorb those BTU's. Thus the required flow rate that one determines is necessary to do this will dictact the size line required. 90% of the time it usually is well with in the limits of a 1.75" line. In simpler terms little fire little water, big fire big water. Less simple but what one needs to consider in the real world are what man power is available to place lines into operation, what is the water supply (booster tank, hydrant system, static sources) able to supply and finally looking beyond the volume of fire on arrival what is the potential growth possibilites. May be a one line fire on arrival but if you cant get it knocked / contained early it may, depending on many variables, grow rapidly beyond the capablities of one 1.75". So pull what you need but be prepared to flow more if things go to ***** and we all know that can and does happen and usually in a big hurry.

    My 2 cents

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,275

    Default

    Those of you who have read my previous posts on hoselines know my volly FD uses 2 inch hose with a 200 gpm at 75 psi combo nozzle backed by a 1 1/4 inch slug tip. This is the only size handline we have, well besides our 1 inch forestry hose.

    We normally move this with 2 or 3 firefighters. Our SOG has a dry line advance to a point of safety, charge the line and then kill the fire. Honestly, we have no difficulties moving it around dry or charged.

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    the corner of walk and don't walk
    Posts
    396

    Talking

    Harve-I don't work til tomorrow! I am practicing say "Engine, Truck, and Ambulance" though! There is no other way for PSC to figure things out! People will really have to start learning to wait for the identifier now!

    As far as this subject goes, maybe you all can donate some 2 1/2 to the Boulevard!

    Stay Safe!

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    University Park, MD
    Posts
    235

    Default

    "I am practicing say "Engine, Truck, and Ambulance" though!"

    LOL, I can see the increased use of Nextel by mid October.

    beep, "Hey Gallagher, are you running on this box with your wagon?"
    beep, "Yeah."
    beep, "Okay, pick up my line at ...."

    No 2-1/2 at all?

    "classic"
    -6873
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Thread killer
    By jerrygarcia in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 5499
    Last Post: 08-24-2014, 10:18 PM
  2. I dont lie!/RE callaway
    By maxkolbe in forum Probie House: The Place for Newbies
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 07-25-2007, 04:24 PM
  3. rigged P.A.T. test????????
    By maxkolbe in forum Probie House: The Place for Newbies
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 07-25-2007, 04:20 PM
  4. ISO Company Personnel
    By FIRE549 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-16-2007, 07:15 PM
  5. Board halts payments to Active Hose
    By Lewiston2FF in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-31-2004, 01:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register