1. #1

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    Default Purchasing an used TIC.

    Hello.
    My name is Jonas Hansson.
    I am a student at a swedish University named "Malmö Högskola" and I am looking for a Thermal Imaging Camera to be used in a project.

    I was told to try this forum as a way of getting in touch with a Fire Department that might have an old TIC that were not in use.

    Since I'm just a student, I am not even near beeing able to afford a new TIC, so I am hoping that maybe some of you may know where I might be able to purchase an old, used, but working one for under $1000.
    The only requierment for it, is that it should be working, and somehow be able to display the output. If it also can save the images to a memorycard, or give image output through cable, that is just a big plus, but defenetly not necessary.

    And since I'm in sweden, the only way I can pay is through paypal, and well, the last requierment is that it should be able to be shipped to sweden ofcourse.

    If anyone here is able to help me I would very much appreciate it.


    I have already searched for one here i Sweden and asked a local firedepartment, but of some reason, they will not sell used TIC's here, but destroy them instead to throw away. But why they do this, the person I asked was not able to explain, but it was regulated somehow by the government here in sweden.

    /Jonas Hansson

  2. #2
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    It is federal law and punishable with jail time to sell a TIC. It is a defense type of issue and is based on security. Cant sell one legally even for research. A check is made to validate your purpose and if you do not have ligit reason. I sell cameras and an investigation take place on each new camera for verification and intended use.
    A very large manufacture of cameras just recently was fined about 1,000,000 for not keeping up with the paperwork.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by draegerman4050 View Post
    It is federal law and punishable with jail time to sell a TIC. It is a defense type of issue and is based on security. Cant sell one legally even for research. A check is made to validate your purpose and if you do not have ligit reason. I sell cameras and an investigation take place on each new camera for verification and intended use.
    A very large manufacture of cameras just recently was fined about 1,000,000 for not keeping up with the paperwork.
    NO IT IS NOT! It is not illegal to sell a TI. It is not even illegal to sell it internationally.

    Certain technologies are export restricted and the federal government must approve the sale. However, European nations are among the easiest to sell into. It's just a paperwork issue; it is not insurmountable and it is certainly not illegal.

    Jonas, don't listen to this goof. You can buy a TI in Europe, which would help ease the import/export regulations. There are several brands either manufactured or sold in Europe (UK, Germany being the two most common). I will say, you probably won't find one for $1000.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Quote Originally Posted by firemanjb View Post
    Jonas, don't listen to this goof. You can buy a TI in Europe, which would help ease the import/export regulations. There are several brands either manufactured or sold in Europe (UK, Germany being the two most common). I will say, you probably won't find one for $1000.
    Thank you for the reply.
    Ive been looking at eBay for used TIC's, and there are some sold for below $1000, but of some reason, the sellers all have 0 feedback, nor will they reply on emails so I belive those are fake auctions.

    I am greatful for the reply thought, didnt dare continue to look after I saw that answer from draegerman4050, thanks.

    /Jonas Hansson

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    I don't know what your project is, but I wonder if you could sweet talk a TI sales rep into demo-ing a unit for you. Maybe worth a try?

  6. #6
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    Perhaps a rental would help you out.
    http://www.infraredcamerarentals.com/

  7. #7
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    Both Draegerman and Jonathan Bastian are actually correct. It is illegal to export a US made camera out of the USA without an DoC license. And yes, there is paperwork involved – but it is much more than “just a paperwork shuffle.” Each ultimate and intermediate consignee on the license has to be vetted; basically so the governments are confident the cameras will not end-up in some rouge military application. The license has to be applied for by the exporter – i.e. the person or company in the United States that will actually do the exporting. Not necessarily the manufacturer.

    Jonathan (used to work for Bullard), the reason I believe you feel it is nothing more than paperwork is because Bullard exports lots of cameras and the government already knows you. Therefore, when Bullard applies for a license, it is assumed to be a real export to a real fire department unless proven otherwise. Same for MSA and same for us (ISG.) I believe it would be a very different story if an unknown individual was applying for a license off an ebay sale. DHS is constantly looking at ebay postings. Posting an infrared camera on ebay, then exporting it without approval, is a sure bet to get yourself nailed. And they will come after you. That is how serious they are about exporting US military or dual-use equipment. This is very serious stuff. I know you guys at Bullard and I know you are all very serious about compliance. As are we, and as are MSA. We all have been around the block a couple of times and know the rules. No rookies here.

    With respect to the million dollar fine, that was 100 million dollars and it did not involve thermal imaging – as I recall, it involved the export of amplification type night vision goods and most importantly, the surrounding ITAR restricted technology that makes them work. Big Big problem – Big Big Fine. I wonder how many people got fired over that one?

    Good luck finding a camera. However, it will be difficult to get a license for a student. Pretty much impossible because you do not have a bona fide reason to have the camera. However, if you were a Swedish fire brigade, you will have no problem whatsoever. Besides, a thousand dollars is not very realistic for a thermal imaging camera. They are much more expensive than that.

    David A. Little
    CEO
    ISG Thermal Systems USA, Inc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalittle View Post
    Both Draegerman and Jonathan Bastian are actually correct. It is illegal to export a US made camera out of the USA without an DoC license. And yes, there is paperwork involved – but it is much more than “just a paperwork shuffle.” Each ultimate and intermediate consignee on the license has to be vetted; basically so the governments are confident the cameras will not end-up in some rouge military application. The license has to be applied for by the exporter – i.e. the person or company in the United States that will actually do the exporting. Not necessarily the manufacturer.

    Jonathan (used to work for Bullard), the reason I believe you feel it is nothing more than paperwork is because Bullard exports lots of cameras and the government already knows you. Therefore, when Bullard applies for a license, it is assumed to be a real export to a real fire department unless proven otherwise. Same for MSA and same for us (ISG.) I believe it would be a very different story if an unknown individual was applying for a license off an ebay sale. DHS is constantly looking at ebay postings. Posting an infrared camera on ebay, then exporting it without approval, is a sure bet to get yourself nailed. And they will come after you. That is how serious they are about exporting US military or dual-use equipment. This is very serious stuff. I know you guys at Bullard and I know you are all very serious about compliance. As are we, and as are MSA. We all have been around the block a couple of times and know the rules. No rookies here.

    With respect to the million dollar fine, that was 100 million dollars and it did not involve thermal imaging – as I recall, it involved the export of amplification type night vision goods and most importantly, the surrounding ITAR restricted technology that makes them work. Big Big problem – Big Big Fine. I wonder how many people got fired over that one?

    Good luck finding a camera. However, it will be difficult to get a license for a student. Pretty much impossible because you do not have a bona fide reason to have the camera. However, if you were a Swedish fire brigade, you will have no problem whatsoever. Besides, a thousand dollars is not very realistic for a thermal imaging camera. They are much more expensive than that.

    David A. Little
    CEO
    ISG Thermal Systems USA, Inc.
    David...I hope all is well. Yes, it easier for an established comany to export TIs. However, the statement that it is illegal to export was patently incorrect. And unless things have changed in the years since I left, aSi technology should still be relatively easy to export. The gov't may have tightened that like they did BST and VOx, in which case it would be burdensome...but not illegal.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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