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Thread: Scenarios

  1. #1
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    Default Scenarios

    I'm thinking about starting something new-- You answer the scenario and give your own (if you have one). It may turn out to be a good learning experience... or maybe it'll fall through.

    I'm going to start off with a fairly simple one...

    At 0700 hours, your Engine company is dispatched to a structure fire at 2-story single family dwelling in a newer development. Upon arrival, you find there is no flame visible and the window glass is smoke-stained with a lot of heat inside. Upon investigation, you see smoke emanating under pressure from cracks. The smoke from the eves appears to be 'breathing'.
    As an officer on the only Engine company on scene as of now, what's your next move?
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    I think this is a really good idea.

    On arrivial seeing that there is smoke showing strike a first. And get a ladder company to ventalate the roof. If the house is breathing or puffing and the windows are blacken then there a danger of a backdraft so by ventalating the roof allows the gases to rise up and out of the house makeing it safer for the engine companies to go in and knock down what ever is burning.

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    You have a nine story paper mill fire with four floors above ground and five floors bleow ground. The fire has burned for several hours collapsing the four above ground floors into the ground. There is still heavy fire burning below the pile. Now the the tricky part there are two exposer problems a building to the left and right and the building is located between a river in the back and a canal in the front with very limited truck access.


    This is a real scenario Turners Falls, MA
    Good Luck

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    I'd get as many master streams as possible from the front and back. A fireboat or two in the canal and river (if possible) and I would have streams directed from the exposure buildings themselves on the pile. Also, would obviousbly have some exposure protection lines as well.





    My scenario:

    Dispatched at 1017 on Wednesday morning for a reported structure fire at a 3 story office building. Responding on the initial assignment is Two Engines, 1 Truck, 1 Rescue, 1 Medic Unit, 1 Chief. Upon arrival you (the chief) find heavy smoke and flame showing from the A and B sides of the structure on Div II, moderate to heavy smoke conditions throughout the first floor and Div III is venting some light smoke from the B-C corner. It is a workday and approximately 200 people work in the structure. There is a basement, and there are offices down there. There is one elevator stuck in the shaft between the second and third floor with approximately 12 people inside. There are reports of people trapped on the Second and Third Floors and the basement. There are light to moderate smoke conditions in the basement.

    This one might make for a long answer.
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    First, this is a good idea because it will get people thinking.

    The scenario:

    Dispatched at 1017 on Wednesday morning for a reported structure fire at a 3 story office building. Responding on the initial assignment is Two Engines, 1 Truck, 1 Rescue, 1 Medic Unit, 1 Chief. Upon arrival you (the chief) find heavy smoke and flame showing from the A and B sides of the structure on Div II, moderate to heavy smoke conditions throughout the first floor and Div III is venting some light smoke from the B-C corner. It is a workday and approximately 200 people work in the structure. There is a basement, and there are offices down there. There is one elevator stuck in the shaft between the second and third floor with approximately 12 people inside. There are reports of people trapped on the Second and Third Floors and the basement. There are light to moderate smoke conditions in the basement.

    This one might make for a long answer.

    My action plan

    Ok, well first I'm hoping that with heavy smoke and fire on the 2nd that the fire alarms have been activated so that should mean the building has been evacuated. Then Im going to have my ladder Co. open the walls on the first floor and basement to try and locate the reason behind the heavy smoke on the first floors. My first engine Co. is going to begin the fire attack on Div. 2. The rescue is performing searches on the second and third simultaneously(sp) if the manpower permits.

    If the truck locates any fire on the first and or basement levels that second engine is going directly there. Because the 1st due engine will have already been operating above the fire for at least a few minutes and i need to get a knock on the fire below them for there safety. Depending upon manpower the truck could split crews sending have to open up on div 2 and the half to stay and finish opening up for the second due engine.

    Depending on the results of the rescue Co. searches and the progress of the fire attack the rescue will check the status of the trapped elevator, ensuring that there is suffecient oxygen for the occupants. Then after the fire has been knocked the people trapped in the elevator will be extricated. I waited until then so as to reduce the possible haxards they will be introduced to on the way out of the building.

    Thats how I would do it. But I'm several years away from riding the right front seat of any fire apparatus.
    Last edited by LADDER2EKU; 09-21-2007 at 10:28 AM.
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  6. #6
    Forum Member LADDER2EKU's Avatar
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    My scenario:

    Dipatched approx 1500 sunday afternoon for the house fire. The responding compliment is bringing the 1st due engine with 2, the second due with 5, the third and fourth due engines with 4 each. Also you have a rescue squad responding with 5. The first engine arrives on scene with heavy smoke from the second and third floors of a 3-story ballon frame occupancy. There area doesnt have any hydrants, with a drafting source approximitly 2 miles away.

    Alittle easier than RFRDxplorer's hopefully.

    This actually happened in my county on Superbowl sunday this past year.(I got back in time to watch the game)
    Wade Munday

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    Stafford Sheriffs/Stafford VFD
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    Because the 1st due engine will have already been operating above the fire for at least a few minutes and i need to get a knock on the fire below them for there safety.
    Ahem. How about amending that to read "...for their safety, I'm not going to put an Engine crew directly above where I suspect a fire is burning."

    Smoke showing on all floors in a building with a basement/cellar should be a good clue that you've got a basement/cellar fire working...as for the fire presence, well, you have to look at the condition of the building--if it's been involved for a while, which it sounds like it has if you have heavy fire showing from 2nd floor, you may have a structure that's just fundamentally unsafe to try an interior attack on. You'd need more information to make that call.

    But honestly...if you were the chief, and told me you think there's fire on the 2nd floor, but you want me to go to the third floor directly above the fire to "put it out", that tickle at the back of your throat would be my toes wiggling after I've rammed my boot up your browneye, bugles or no.

    Here's a thought... rather than trying to put yourselves in the position of chief officers in charge of full working structures, why not keep it simple? Why's it have to be a 9 story sawmill or whatever? Why not a R&C in an SFD, a TA, a *gasp* wildland fire (or even better, an interface fire)? Oh wait, that's right, wildland fires never kill anyone, they're not dangerous like structures .

    So here's my scenario, based upon some good ol-fashioned California-style action:
    A day in July, about 1530 hrs... Dispatched to a reported unknown type fire at the northern bank of a local river (which runs generally east-west with a slight southern curve). The river area is known to be timber-understory type fuels with heavy buildup of duff and blowdown.
    Your initial response is 3 Type 1 (structural) Engines (2000+ gals apiece, lots of hose and full structural/wildland hand tool complement) and 3 Patrols (4x4 F-450/550 chassis with 300 gals, 150GPM pumps plus full complement of structure and wildland hand tools), plus one Battalion Chief. You are assigned to the first-due Patrol to this incident. Two Engines are staffed with 3, one Engine is staffed with 1. Two Patrols are staffed with 2, your Patrol is just you.
    Enroute, dispatch updates that per LE on-scene, it is a vegetation fire on the north side of the river, currently approximately 3 acres burning in the timber-understory, the fire has not yet laddered to the crown fuels. Currently there are no structures endangered, however about 1/2 mile west of the fire are two two-story SFDs along the riverbank, surrounded on all sides by timber fuels.
    You arrive in the area on a paved road to the north of the river, and see a heavy plume of dark gray smoke from the middle of the riverside forest, however the forested area is off-set from the road by freshly-disced fields lining the paved roadway, approximately 1/4 mile deep. You have two immediately visible access points--one dirt road that goes straight south to what appears to be the origin point of the fire, and another that is about 1/4 mile west of there, putting your arrival point midway between the known location of the fire and the structure it's advancing towards. The structures themselves have well-paved driveways, however they are narrow and it's uncertain whether there is space to turn around in.
    In 3 minutes, you will have both additional Patrols on-scene, plus the first single-staffed Engine.
    In 5 minutes, you will have an additional Engine... the final Engine will arrive in 7 mins. Both late-arriving Engines are your 2-staffed Engines.

    Questions, remember this is from your standpoint as the first-arriving unit:
    1) What particular "watch-outs" and warning signs stand out to you as the first-arriving unit?
    2) What precautions and actions can you take to minimize the risks you see?
    3) Patrols--which access should you take and why?
    4) Engines--where should they be spotted, by order of arrival? What action (if any) are they to take?
    5) Which ICS organizational units would be more efficient in this case, Divisions or Groups?
    Last edited by the1141man; 09-22-2007 at 01:05 AM.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Talking

    now THAT'S a thread killer

  9. #9
    Forum Member LADDER2EKU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    Ahem. How about amending that to read "...for their safety, I'm not going to put an Engine crew directly above where I suspect a fire is burning."
    So, I'm just trying to understand something now, are you saying that you would never send crews to operate above the fire? To perform searches, or check the attic in balloon frames dwellings, etc.? I'm not trying to argue with you I'm just curious. If there is a report of people trapped on any floor above the fire floor either a truck Co. or a rescue Co. is going up there to search, its their job.

    Again, I'm not trying to start any arguement, I'm just curious for your opinion on operating above the fire floor, becuase your qoute appears to me that you don't advocate sending crews above the fire.

    Thanks

    Oh, yeah and I will concede that I was wrong placing the engine Co. on the second floor. I read the post as light smoke on the first and heavy on the third. That was my fault.
    Last edited by LADDER2EKU; 09-22-2007 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Forgot something
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binaroundawhile View Post
    now THAT'S a thread killer
    No kidding!



    I'm not touching anything that has to do with tanker ops or wildland fires. I know absolutely nothing about either one of them and I like knowing that I've always got water.
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    My scenario:

    There is a report of a house fire. The only way to get there is to go over a small bridge, but when you try, a giant troll jumps out and stands in front of the truck. You ask what he wants and all he says is "self explanatory."

    Do you use the water can, the booster line, the 1 3/4 (smooth bore or fog?) 2 1/2(again smooth bore or fog?) deck gun or mutual aid a tower ladder or two to set up master streams to get rid of the troll?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacklrd View Post
    My scenario:

    There is a report of a house fire. The only way to get there is to go over a small bridge, but when you try, a giant troll jumps out and stands in front of the truck. You ask what he wants and all he says is "self explanatory."

    Do you use the water can, the booster line, the 1 3/4 (smooth bore or fog?) 2 1/2(again smooth bore or fog?) deck gun or mutual aid a tower ladder or two to set up master streams to get rid of the troll?
    What does the troll drink? If he drinks water... then none of the above. I'd post signs in the area that look similar to these:
    http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...r326/troll.jpg
    http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...-the-troll.png
    http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...lr326/self.png
    I'd then tape off the immediate area and call in aid from the Dept. of Natural Resourses to come in a remove the troll from the area. While DNR is responding, I'd get the military in to build a bridge a little ways down the stream so I can get 2 engines and a truck across to knock down the fire.
    Firefighter/EMT
    My words stated here do not necessarily point towards organizations which I am affiliated with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LADDER2EKU View Post
    So, I'm just trying to understand something now, are you saying that you would never send crews to operate above the fire? To perform searches, or check the attic in balloon frames dwellings, etc.? I'm not trying to argue with you I'm just curious. If there is a report of people trapped on any floor above the fire floor either a truck Co. or a rescue Co. is going up there to search, its their job.

    Again, I'm not trying to start any arguement, I'm just curious for your opinion on operating above the fire floor, becuase your qoute appears to me that you don't advocate sending crews above the fire.

    Thanks

    Oh, yeah and I will concede that I was wrong placing the engine Co. on the second floor. I read the post as light smoke on the first and heavy on the third. That was my fault.
    Ladder--What you said, and what you're proposing now, are two entirely different things.
    You were talking in your original post about sending a crew to operate DIRECTLY above the fire, or where you suspect the fire to be, without first checking out conditions downstairs. That's bad juju, and just plain unsafe.
    As for performing searches, of course you're going to do that, especially if you have reports of victims entrapped. However, the search team's primary purpose is search and rescue, not directly engaging the fire.
    As for opening up attics, yes, you'd do that, too, if there's any suspicion of vertical extension... but I've seen few fires where one actually goes into the attic (attics around here simply aren't big enough to fit people in, for the most part), especially when there's fire below the attic.
    Basically, you just don't want to be standing right over a spot where fire's burning. Unless of course you like the idea of falling right into said fire...

    As for wildland...come on guys, you mean to tell me that you never go on brush fires? This one's a "bread and butter" fire around CA--especially with the "minor interface" problem thrown in.
    I wanted you guys to look more at the safe operations side of things than actually formulating a complete IAP or anything. How do you get to, let alone attack, the fire without endangering yourselves or apparatus unduly?

    My scenario:

    There is a report of a house fire. The only way to get there is to go over a small bridge, but when you try, a giant troll jumps out and stands in front of the truck. You ask what he wants and all he says is "self explanatory."

    Do you use the water can, the booster line, the 1 3/4 (smooth bore or fog?) 2 1/2(again smooth bore or fog?) deck gun or mutual aid a tower ladder or two to set up master streams to get rid of the troll?
    Those sorts of trolls are immune to water. Best course of action is to immobilize it with a pike pole through the heart, then leave it outdoors, the sun will take care of the rest.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Here's the scenario I gave, and I'll highlight the key points to look at...

    So here's my scenario, based upon some good ol-fashioned California-style action:
    A day in July, about 1530 hrs... Dispatched to a reported unknown type fire at the northern bank of a local river (which runs generally east-west with a slight southern curve). The river area is known to be timber-understory type fuels with heavy buildup of duff and blowdown.
    Your initial response is 3 Type 1 (structural) Engines (2000+ gals apiece, lots of hose and full structural/wildland hand tool complement) and 3 Patrols (4x4 F-450/550 chassis with 300 gals, 150GPM pumps plus full complement of structure and wildland hand tools), plus one Battalion Chief. You are assigned to the first-due Patrol to this incident. Two Engines are staffed with 3, one Engine is staffed with 1. Two Patrols are staffed with 2, your Patrol is just you.
    Enroute, dispatch updates that per LE on-scene, it is a vegetation fire on the north side of the river, currently approximately 3 acres burning in the timber-understory, the fire has not yet laddered to the crown fuels. Currently there are no structures endangered, however about 1/2 mile west of the fire are two two-story SFDs along the riverbank, surrounded on all sides by timber fuels.
    You arrive in the area on a paved road to the north of the river, and see a heavy plume of dark gray smoke from the middle of the riverside forest, however the forested area is off-set from the road by freshly-disced fields lining the paved roadway, approximately 1/4 mile deep. You have two immediately visible access points--one dirt road that goes straight south to what appears to be the origin point of the fire, and another that is about 1/4 mile west of there, putting your arrival point midway between the known location of the fire and the structure it's advancing towards. The structures themselves have well-paved driveways, however they are narrow and it's uncertain whether there is space to turn around in.
    In 3 minutes, you will have both additional Patrols on-scene, plus the first single-staffed Engine.
    In 5 minutes, you will have an additional Engine... the final Engine will arrive in 7 mins. Both late-arriving Engines are your 2-staffed Engines.

    Questions, remember this is from your standpoint as the first-arriving unit:
    1) What particular "watch-outs" and warning signs stand out to you as the first-arriving unit?
    2) What precautions and actions can you take to minimize the risks you see?
    3) Patrols--which access should you take and why?
    4) Engines--where should they be spotted, by order of arrival? What action (if any) are they to take?
    5) Which ICS organizational units would be more efficient in this case, Divisions or Groups?
    1) Time of year and day. July--height of summer, temps are high, fuel moistures are low. Time is 1530, height of the afternoon heat, ambient humidity is low, fuel moistures for 1-10 hr fuels are extremely low (meaning they burn faster and hotter).
    Fuel type: heavy buildup of duff and blowdown means plentiful 1 and 10 hr fuels to rapidly spread a flame front, as well as sufficient fuels to ladder into the crowns. Given time of day, fuel moistures, etc, extreme fire behavior (torching) is likely, posing a severe safety hazard.
    Slope/aspect: the fire is on the north side of the river, so a south-facing aspect. South-facing aspects receive more sunlight than do north, west, or east-facing slopes, and therefore generally have lower fuel moistures.
    Access: narrow dirt roads mean larger apparatus may become stuck. Smaller units may not have adequate turn-around room.
    "Watch outs":
    a) Fire isn't scouted or sized-up fully yet. You've only just arrived on-scene and have yet to make access to see precisely where the fire is or what it's doing, all you have to go by is the plume and a little visible flame burning at the edge of where the woods meets the dirt fields.
    b) No IAP in place because you have yet to outline one
    c) Depending on how you choose to access/attack the fire, you may be placing unburned fuels between you and the fire
    d) Potential for extreme fire behavior, including torching or the beginning of a running crown fire.
    e) "Snags" or dead trees, may burn faster and provide a good ladder fuel, or pose a fall and crush hazard to personnel operating in the area.

    2) You can't help the location--however you can move cautiously, having units stage until you can make access and size-up the fire properly. Once size-up is completed, you can most likely use the black as an anchor and make a "rear" attack on the flame front, beginning with the western side (threatening the structures).

    3) Patrols should make access down the road leading to the origin. By the time the fire has been called in, dispatched, and you've arrived on-scene, the origin has most likely burned down to black, and you can then send apparatus along the farm access roads between the fields and woodland, and mobile-attack or make hoselays from the black, behind the flame-front, which is much safer than a full frontal assault on the fire.
    As the first-arriving unit, you should make access and perform size-up, preferably from the relative safety of the "black" that's already burned. You should then initiate fire attack from the black, either by hoselay or mobile attack, knocking down the flamefront as quickly as you can.
    2nd in Patrol should proceed in and take action against the "backing" opposite flank of the fire, also from the black.
    The western flank is your first priority because your structure exposures are in that direction.
    3rd Patrol should stage near the "origin" access road, to relieve you or the other Patrol once you run out of water.

    4) First-arriving Engine with 1-man staffing will most likely not be useful in a structure protection role. He should stage by your primary ingress/egress point and prepare to operate as a water tender to supply Patrols directly attacking the fire.
    2nd arriving Engine should have their FF walk the driveway of the easternmost house to ascertain whether the Engine can make it down the driveway and make access to the home. Assuming they can, they should back down the driveway and begin structure defense operations--beginning with creating a clearance space, possibly digging a strike line around the house and removing ladder fuels if feasible. With a 2-man crew that's a lot of work, but if available, the residents should be tasked with helping if they are able (it is, after all, their house). Engines should stretch handlines to both sides of the house (1.5") of sufficient length to reach all the way around the structure, as well as using the owner's ladder to obtain roof access to observe the fire if possible.
    Third-arriving Engine should take the same steps at exposure structure #2.

    5) Groups should be sufficient, unless the dispatch is upgraded. If additional Patrols are requested for direct fire attack, they should be assigned to Div A and Div B (western flank and eastern flank, respectively). The officer of the 2nd-arriving Engine should be the Structure Protection Group Supervisor, and coordinate with the 3rd-arriving Engine to ensure that adequate and correct protection steps are taken. Each unit should be "looking out" for the other, and constantly communicating with each other, as well as with the Patrol attacking the western flank to keep apprised of the location of the flame front.

    See, that wasn't so hard. Just took a long time to type it all out. LOL

    Questions or comments?
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Default Here's a tough one for you guys

    Motor Vehicle accident, two vehicles invovled, l lite duty 4 door pickup and a 4 door sedan. The pickup is on the driver side of the vehicle with the driver trapped with his legs trapped under the steering wheel and his feet stuck under the pedal with both ankles broken. How do you get him out without further injury?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AustinFink View Post
    Motor Vehicle accident, two vehicles invovled, l lite duty 4 door pickup and a 4 door sedan. The pickup is on the driver side of the vehicle with the driver trapped with his legs trapped under the steering wheel and his feet stuck under the pedal with both ankles broken. How do you get him out without further injury?
    Is this guy in the driver seat of the pickup or the sedan? Kind of an unclear antecedent there.

    Either way, his ankles are screwed up, use the cutters and amputate at the ankle, remove patient. That was too easy.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    As for wildland...come on guys, you mean to tell me that you never go on brush fires?
    The few brush fires we have a year are usually right along railroad tracks so we will pull the engine back there, pull off the trash line and go home.

    Motor Vehicle accident, two vehicles invovled, l lite duty 4 door pickup and a 4 door sedan. The pickup is on the driver side of the vehicle with the driver trapped with his legs trapped under the steering wheel and his feet stuck under the pedal with both ankles broken. How do you get him out without further injury?
    Well since you didnt give me any apparatus to work with, I will place this call on the interstate in my district (south part to be specifc as that is where a majority of our wrecks are) and act as my chief.

    Our dept's response would be 1 Rescue/Engine, 1 ALS Engine, 2 Medic Units, 1-2 Chiefs, 1 Safety Officer. I would put Life Flight on standby as I was enroute and I would request that the dept to the south of us respond with their Rescue and a Medic unit. We also should be getting an auto aid rescue engine. We usually have plenty of cops on location before we even get there, so by now we know that we have what may end up being a prolonged extrication. I would assign the first medic unit for Pt. Care in the pickup and assign the Rescue/Engine to Extrication. I also would have dispatch get Life Flight in the air. My ALS Engine would be down the road a ways setting up an LZ (I am assuming that the truck is smack dab in the middle of 3 lanes of interstate, so State Highway Patrol and local PD have the road shut down). Second medic unit would be triaging pts in the other vehicle. Mutual Aid medic unit would stage at the on ramp until we had a job for them. The mutual aid rescue would move right on up to the scene and assist in extrication from the pickup or if needed, would extricate any pts from the sedan. The auto aid rescue engine would use their struts to stabilize the pickup (in addition to the cribbing and any other stabilzation methods we used) and then pull a line for protection and we would then start by using the mini cutters to free his foot from the pedals. Then I would either perform a full roof removal or just fold it back. Then roll the dash with the hyd rams. Put the guy in the KED (if he's not already) get him out of the vehicle and to Life Flight.


    Keep in mind that I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer View Post
    The few brush fires we have a year are usually right along railroad tracks so we will pull the engine back there, pull off the trash line and go home.



    Well since you didnt give me any apparatus to work with, I will place this call on the interstate in my district (south part to be specifc as that is where a majority of our wrecks are) and act as my chief.

    Our dept's response would be...

    Keep in mind that I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.
    So... where's your scenario...?
    Firefighter/EMT
    My words stated here do not necessarily point towards organizations which I am affiliated with.

  19. #19
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    Jake:

    Just one point to bring up.... why would you wait for the auto-aid Engine to arrive to put a line down? Why not the first-in pump-capable unit?
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    Jake:

    Just one point to bring up.... why would you wait for the auto-aid Engine to arrive to put a line down? Why not the first-in pump-capable unit?
    You bring up a very good point. At most of the wrecks here I guess this is what happens. I don't know why I never gave this more thought. Maybe it is because we run a Rescue/Engine that has a 4 FF capacity. So on a MVA it is pretty much a Rescue OR an Engine. Then if it were an MVA w/o a need for a medevac, the ALS engine will usually pull a line.

    But thanks for bringing that up, it didnt even cross my mind.
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