1. #1
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    Default 2" for High Rise Hose??

    Has anyone crunched the numbers on this?

    Everyday, more FDs are changing to 2.5" hose in their standpipe operations. The reasons are:

    - Standpipes cannot supply enough pressure to overcome friction loss in 1.75" hose
    - Fires in fireproof buildings are enclosed and might require more water

    BUT...

    With the developments in hose over the last 10 years (Angus Hi-Combat, Ponn Conquest, etc), is it possible to use their 2" hose on standpipe connections and gain some flexibility back that smaller hose offers while staying at lower pressures? In other words, could you use the new hose at the same (or slightly greater) Friction Loss and achieve 200+gpm flows for 2" hose?

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    No. Its a matter of the physical properties of the hose, not friction loss.

    End of story.

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    Let me try again, and maybe you can detail your point.

    The friction loss is the deciding factor in how much water you can flow. When you have a limited amount of pressure, say 85psi, and you need 40 psi at the nozzle, 5 psi to go up one floor, you have 40 psi to put to use for friction loss, or 20 psi per 100'. With the relatively low friction loss properties of the next-generation hose, you could flow a considerable amount of water at 20 psi per 100' of 2". Specifically, according to PONN, you could flow 220gpm through a 15/16" nozzle tip at 20psi per 100'.

    http://www.ffpsafety.com/snaptite/ponn_fire_hose.htm

    When the FDNY sets, as a goal, a flow rate of 250gpm for their 2.5" high rise hoseline, is it worth it to trade 30gpm to get more maneuverability, less kinking and lighter hose wet or dry? These factors could contribute to getting water on the fire quicker....

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    Look... this has been discussed before along similiar lines before....

    with 2 inch hose, all you have is basically a small diameter attack line that is a lil larger. You will get a good flow

    2.5 is medium diameter hose. You will get more out of it. Thats the bottom line.

    To get more out of the 2 inch hose to match the 2.5, your going to need a high PSI which is not always possible. If your high rises arent that high, then, thats not an issue. But, for most, the 2.5 provides a lot better flow with a lot lower PSI

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    Believe me, I understand standpipe operations. I am looking for someone to show me why this wouldn't work, with numbers. Again, the major change here is the Angus or Ponn hose with reduced friction loss that could even make this possible.

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    Given the setup time, coordination, distance from the street, lack of vertical vent and potential fuel, why not take the largest diameter handline on the truck the first time? Why fight so hard against using your best offensive weapon? What if the 2" just isn't quite enough?

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    Hydraulically, its all about your standpipe outlet pressures. Remember, the outlet pressure is the same principle as the pump discharge pressure in a flow calculation. If you want to know if it will work hydraulically, run the numbers for 2" hose at the desired flow. Figure the required outlet pressure for 200 and 250 GPM and you'll have some answers. You really need a low pressure nozzle as well, thats a debate for another day though. When you go over 150' of 2" you will start to see the need for 100+ PSI standpipe outlet pressures, and in many cases that isnt possible, especially pre-FDC boost by a pumper

    I believe the Ponn data is misleading, in that the 15/16" tip is 180 GPM@50 PSI. To get 220 GPM through that tip you need alot of pressure, not the kind of pressure you will be able to get, nor would you want in this hose with the aforementioned tip size. That 220 Should be from a 1 1/8" tip at about 40 PSI tip pressure.

    Angus does not make Hi Combat in 2"
    Last edited by MG3610; 09-25-2007 at 08:18 PM.

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    There are a lot of people in the fire service today that do not understand that construction of the newer hose is different and that standard friction loss formulas don't always apply. If you are using Ponn Conquest or some of these other hoses you can definitely get higher gpm flows then in the past due to the reduced friction loss.

    For standpipe use though 2.5 inch hose is still probably a better bet. The reason for this is the gpm lost due to kinks. I can not remember the exact numbers off the top of my head but the 45 degree kink in a 1.75inch hose results in much higher gpm loss then that same kink in 2.5 inch hose. I am assuming it would be the similiar with 2 inch hose. When deploying hose lines in stairwells for standpipe operations kinks are a definite issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RE33FFX View Post
    When deploying hose lines in stairwells for standpipe operations kinks are a definite issue.

    It has been shown time and time again.

    Given the increased fire load you will encounter in a Hi Rise fire, the 2 1/2inch hose is our best weapon. With the short staffing most fire departments are fielding and the likely-hood of having to defend residents/occupants in place, the 2 1/2inch hose is the way to go.

    Also never forget that firefighters using hose less than 2 1/2inch hose have given their lives, should hammer home that lessen.

    Is it more work? Yes!

    Would 2" hose be an improvement for many fire departments currently out there using 1 1/2 or 1 3/4inch hose in their hi rise packs? Yes. Does that make it right or better? NO.

    If a window fails suddenly in a Hi Rise, you will be thankful you have that 2 1/2inch hose in your hands.
    Last edited by DocVBFDE14; 09-25-2007 at 09:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    with 2 inch hose, all you have is basically a small diameter attack line that is a lil larger. You will get a good flow

    2.5 is medium diameter hose. You will get more out of it. Thats the bottom line.
    and you will get even more using a 3 inch hose line. using your line of thinking, a 3 inch would work even better, since you would get more water out of it.

    so y aren't u advocating using 3 inch hose for highrises?
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    The only fd's that can compare to the FDNY are I think Houston or Dallas. No one to my limited memory runs with 5 men on an engine, and thats 5 men plus an officer.

    You will not be able to handle a large caliber hand line with 3 men company's. You must have 4 men, one at the standpipe one at the door and the noz and BU . We use a 1 1/8 tip, the 15/16 tip does not flow enough water.

    Friction loss is calculated at 5psi per length. We must have atleast 70psi at the SP for 3 lengths and 80 for 4.

    Its not a matter of the fire load in a Fireproof multiple dwelling as it is the need to have the volume of water for the large amount of sq footage you can encounter in the types of buildings they present. I know that sounds contradictory but when we pull up to a standpipe building we take the rollups no matter what. Any large uncompartmented space requires large volumes of water if we plan on beating it down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    and you will get even more using a 3 inch hose line. using your line of thinking, a 3 inch would work even better, since you would get more water out of it.

    so y aren't u advocating using 3 inch hose for highrises?
    what size hose are standpipes designed to be used with?

    The 2 1/2" allows for a good balance of superior GPMs, while still be able to make a significant push, without a delay at the standpipe hookup. The 3" is very obviously much less manueverable. I have personally, as well as witnessed on numerous occasions, 2 members operate and make a push down a hallway with a 2 1/2" (it wasnt pretty, but it got done until the 2nd due engine arrived).

    More water is better, to an extent. Why dont we just design rigs with 40,000 gallons of water and get rid of hydrants?
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 09-25-2007 at 11:15 PM.
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    With our current set-up we run 50' 2 1/2" for the connection at the floor below with a pressure gauge at the wye, located on the fire floor. From there we use 100' of 2" with a 75/250 break apart nozzle. We just completed highrise training and found that it was not enough. Many of the personnel who were at the drills (3 nights a week for 4 weeks) are in agreement that we need to switch to all 2 1/2" with smooth bore nozzles. The reason given was that when (not if) the 2" kinks around a corner the water delivered was cut dramatically.

    One needs to only look at the fire at One Meridian Plaza to understand some of the problems encountered. True they were using 1 1/2" with automaic nozzles manufactured to deliver a fire fighting stream no matter the pressure at the nozzle. When the investigation was done, it was determined (if memory serves me correctly) that the lines were only flowing 37 gallons per minute. Yes there were other factors in this tragedy but some could have been overcome had they been flowing larger diameter lines.

    Another reason to not use the 2" is the nozzle reaction. When flowing 250 gpm from a 2 inch using a fog nozzle reaction is greater than a 2 1/2" with a smooth bore. More work for the floks on the line.

    Others have talked about the "new" hose on the market. We tried to duplicate the numbers from the maufactures and could not. When checking with the manufactures that stated that the friction loss numbers were from UNcoupled lines in ideal conditions. Seems to me that we do not work in those ideal conditions.

    In answer to you question, will 2" work for highrise fires, sure it will, but what are you willing to sacrifice?
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    and you will get even more using a 3 inch hose line. using your line of thinking, a 3 inch would work even better, since you would get more water out of it.

    so y aren't u advocating using 3 inch hose for highrises?
    Hell, whatever floats your boat. You got the manpower for a 3 inch, knock yourself out. But, like its been said, not many places have the manpower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    Hell, whatever floats your boat. You got the manpower for a 3 inch, knock yourself out. But, like its been said, not many places have the manpower.
    They probably don't, its just a sarcastic reply.
    Last edited by MG3610; 09-26-2007 at 12:48 AM.

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    hey, he wants 3 inch. Let him have it. Not many departments out there though got the interior crew to haul around a 2.5 inch line very well, let alone a 3inch

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    Well,
    For what it is worth...the UK Fire Service is looking at 51mm (2") hose for High Rise Operations, probably to be trialed in London with a few thousand High Rise Buildings with a significant residential H/R job roughly once per month.

    It has been picked because it is almost as flexible as working with 45mm (1.75") with flow characteristics similar to 70mm (2.5"0 hose.

    As I type I am regretting it... of course the UK Fire Service just jump in without detailed research and development and unfortunatley,no matter how long, how hard, how big, our busy our Brigades are...we are not worthy of inclusion because of a 3,500 mile stretch of ocean and a different accent!!!!

    So therefore, the fact the UK are seriously considering this is invalid to this conversation because of the reasons above...and don't you know we just "Stand out in the street spraying water onto the fire through the windows" makes my contribution about as worthy as that of a 13 yo explorer from a Tiny Volly FD in outer nowhere Cty USA!!!!

    Thus the reason I and (other no nothing Brits) tend not to waste our time on here too much anymore.... Ciao!!!

    FatherPierce... if you can take anything from this feel free, I am also have some of the research papers on my PC (Not 100% certain).
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    We are testing light weight standpipe hoses. Same diameter 2.5 but half the weight. We hear different things about its reliability as its just rubber lined on a jacket, not rubber hose surronded by a jacket.

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    Well SteveDude, at least you know where you stand.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    .... and you use all those silly words too Steve.

    And for what it's worth Steve, not all Americans think that what you do on the other side of the Atlantic has no validity. It's just that some folks honestly beleive that they're better because they're here.

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    LA,
    I know not everyone is guilty of it. But you have hit the nail on the head with your last sentence. I love the US and her people...the closest we have to true friends and allies alongside the Aussies & Irish... But the "It's best because it is/we are from the USA" attitude is gobsmakingly naive to a lot of other people in the World. As Nations we all have our talents and specialities but each of us know we can't be right all of the time.

    Like i said, I love the USA and have more long time friends over with you than anywhere else....even Ireland.. but I drive a BMW and watch a Sony TV because I know where to spend wisely!!!!

    Anyway, I digress, back to High rise and how badly us Brits put fires out!!!! (W'ever)
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    Stevedude,

    It is a shame that you feel that way. All I can say is fire is fire, and it doesn't burn any hotter here. To discount your opinion because of your location is wasting a valuable opportunity to learn from a different perspective. There are plenty of us here who value all opinions - nothing but respect from me!

    The big point I'm trying to make here is that by utilizing the new reduced friction loss hose, you could actually use 2" and get pretty close to the flow you want in a 2.5" line and keep the pressures in the working range from a standpipe.

    Let's say that the theory was true (still not a given). If you used an 1 1/8" tip, you could flow the same 240gpm at 40psi with 50 psi for friction loss over the hose (as per Ponn again, see the link above). In this case, the only tradeoff would be decreased reach of the stream. You would gain lighter hose wet and dry and increased manueverability, and those things add up to quicker water on the fire. Also remember the anti-kinking properties of the Ponn and Angus, which should help no matter what size hose you are using.

    If you used a 1" tip, you would flow 210gpm at 50 psi, with 40 psi for friction loss. You would lose GPM but the reach of the stream would be increased. The nozzle reaction for both the 1" tip at 50psi and the 1 1/8" tip at 40 psi would be the same.

    Interestingly, the 2 tips would be interchangable, without an adjustment needed at the control valve. So if you wanted reach, you could use the 1" and if you wanted flow, you could use the 1 1/8".

    OR...

    We could really go crazy...

    2 lengths of lightweight 2.5" hose
    2.5" to 2" reducer
    2 lengths of Ponn Conquest 2" hose

    To flow 240gpm, you would only need 33 psi friction loss. That gives your 2" line the flow of your 2.5" line with 1 1/8" nozzle at the SAME pressure as your regular 2.5" line! 83 psi total gets your 2 floors above the standpipe outlet...

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    Again, why not utilize the hose technologies in the 2.5" line and have an even more capable weapon with you? When you're 5 stories(our hamlet) away fro the truck, who wants to start over when we find the 2" isn't enough? If the 2.5" isn't enough we move to defensive. You're idea isn't flawed, but it doesn't give you the best option when faced with an undetermined amount of fire or a sydden change in conditions. Take as much water to the fight as you can. And let's not go down the silly road of why not stretch 3" or larger. Unless you already are doing this, let's try to stick with reality.

    Stevedude: I agree that the 2" can and does work. If this is the standard you use, then you're miles ahead of many of us who can't agree on trivial matters. My point is, purely based on BTU's your crew will have to abandon offensive ops at a lesser fire than a crew utilizing a 2.5" line. Nothing to do with quality of the crews, yet the ability of more gpm to fight more BTU's. Possiblly the crew with the smaller line could get there quicker and keep the fire smaller, but given the choice, I'd take the biggest weapon we're outfitted with. BTW: Do you guys have any larger offensive lines or is 2" the max?
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 09-26-2007 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDude View Post
    LA,
    I know not everyone is guilty of it. But you have hit the nail on the head with your last sentence. I love the US and her people...the closest we have to true friends and allies alongside the Aussies & Irish... But the "It's best because it is/we are from the USA" attitude is gobsmakingly naive to a lot of other people in the World. As Nations we all have our talents and specialities but each of us know we can't be right all of the time.

    Like i said, I love the USA and have more long time friends over with you than anywhere else....even Ireland.. but I drive a BMW and watch a Sony TV because I know where to spend wisely!!!!

    Anyway, I digress, back to High rise and how badly us Brits put fires out!!!! (W'ever)
    Did I miss something here? Because some of us are advocating using 2 1/2", and giving reasons for it, we are now somehow bashing other countries?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    RFDACMO2 -

    Just to clarify, the difference in the friction loss at 250gpm of standard 2.5" hose and the new technology's 2.5" is insignificant, so there's no benefit to purchasing it.

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