1. #1
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    Default More liberal traitors helping to embolden the enemy

    Generals break tradition and voice their opposition to the war and leadership of the US.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    They are entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it is.

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    And away we go....

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    This is really not that surprising, I think it’s just a sign of our changing times, for better or worse. The article talks about how retired generals and other military leaders speaking out as being something relatively new, starting with the 1991 Gulf War.
    There is a changing climate in our country with being vocal, and it now has spread into the military. Do we know for certain that our military leaders in past campaigns were unanimous in supporting the civilian leadership? According to this article, I would say no, we can’t know that for certain. I’ll give them credit though, if they disagreed with their orders while in uniform, they chose to retire rather than disobey and criticize their orders.

    I don’t know how they failed to see that their op-ed pieces would be huge news, though. Much like individual soldiers who run to Canada rather than to do their sworn-duty, it will obviously be front page news.
    Are they liberal? I don’t know, I didn’t see any of their positions on other issues presented. Are they traitors? I don’t think so, they chose to retire before criticizing. Is their criticism tacky, or out of line? Navy Vice Adm. David Richardson(ret) certainly seems to think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    They are entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it is.
    Oh really? You base this on what? Please detail for us your policy positions within the DoD. Some of these folks were involved in planning the war and advising the administration.

    I liked this soundbite the best.

    “The ethos is: Give your advice to those in a position to make changes, not the media,” said Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, now retired. “But this administration is immune to good advice.”
    We have been told by the right wing noise machine that civilians should let the military do their job. We find out now this administration that prides itself on supporting our men and women in uniform that it didn't pay attention to the experts in uniform either.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    This is really not that surprising, I think it’s just a sign of our changing times, for better or worse.
    It's for the better. Military leadership has a special obligation to the populace since their activities involve the taking of lives on both sides.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Honestly, I'm not really sure what to think. At one moment in time we are the worlds saviors (WWII, Kuwait, Iraq, Bosnia, etc). But at other times we shouldn't be there at all (Viet Nam, Iraq). Yup, I listed Iraq twice, once around 1993 and now.

    My personal opinion is we should bring ALL of our troops home and let them guard our borders. Keep out the illegals if you will. Sort of like I was told as a child, make sure your own doorstep is clean first.

    As for the Generals there are have been Generals on both sides of the political spectrum for years and they have always spoke out.

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    Wink Sounds as if they were written today!!

    "It appears we have appointed our worst generals to command forces, and our
    most gifted and brilliant to edit newspapers. In fact, I discovered by
    reading newspapers that these editor/geniuses plainly saw all my strategic
    defects from the start, yet failed to inform me until it was too late.

    Accordingly, I am readily willing to yield my command to these obviously
    superior intellects, and I will, in turn, do my best for the Cause by
    writing editorials - after the fact."

    - Robert E. Lee, 1863
    ************************************************** ****************************
    "Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale,
    and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or
    hanged."

    ~ President Abraham Lincoln

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    "Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale,
    and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or
    hanged."
    Damn, you really are a right-wing dupe, aren't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raughammer1 View Post
    "Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale,
    and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or
    hanged."

    ~ President Abraham Lincoln
    I wonder how Lincoln would have reacted to these Congressmen who took actions that were critical of a sitting President during wartime? Especially since they were from his party.

    Then-House Majority Whip Tom Delay (R-TX): “Mr. Speaker, this is a very difficult speech for me to give, because I normally, and I still do, support our military and the fine work that they are doing. But I cannot support a failed foreign policy. … But before we get deeper embroiled into this Balkan quagmire, I think that an assessment has to be made of the Kosovo policy so far. President Clinton has never explained to the American people why he was involving the U.S. military in a civil war in a sovereign nation, other than to say it is for humanitarian reasons, a new military/foreign policy precedent. … Was it worth it to stay in Vietnam to save face? What good has been accomplished so far? Absolutely nothing.”
    [Congressional Record, “Removal of United States Armed Forces from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,” 4/28/99]

    Then-House Majority Whip Tom Delay (R-TX): The deployment of U.S. military forces in Kosovo is “just another bad idea in a foreign policy without a focus.” [Editorial, Saint Paul Pioneer Press (Minnesota),
    3/17/99]

    Then-House Majority Whip Tom Delay (R-TX): “America needs to quickly change directions and leave behind this chilling comedy of errors that has defined our foreign policy.” [Copley News Service,
    3/22/99]

    Then-Senate Assistant Majority Leader Don Nickles (R-OK): “I want NATO to be credible, but for crying out loud, when you are so arrogant to say here is our wisdom, here is this accord, we determined this is in your best interest and you must sign it or else we are going to bomb you--I stated in my speech on the bombing resolution that I don't think you can bomb a country into submission or into signing an agreement.” [Congressional Record, Senator Don Nickles, 5/3/99]

    Senator James Inhofe (R-OK): “(P)resident [Clinton] has decimated our ability to defend ourselves.”
    [USA Today, 4/5/99]

    Senator Judd Gregg (R-NH): “I don’t believe that a ground war in Kosovo using American troops is going to be very successful.” [NBC, “Meet the Press,” 4/18/99]

    Representative Randy “Duke” Cunningham (R-CA): “This is the most inept foreign policy in the history of the United States.” [Washington Times, 4/29/99]

    Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN): “This is President Clinton’s war, and when he falls flat on his face, that’s his problem.” [New York Times, 5/4/99]

    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I wonder how Lincoln would have reacted to these Congressmen who took actions that were critical of a sitting President during wartime? Especially since they were from his party.
    In the quote provided from Lincoln, the term 'congressmen' was used. It didn't make any reference to a specific political party.

    I didn't like the criticism any more then than I do now. The president decides foreign policy, and the president knows more about the actual intelligence of world hot spots than we in the public do, contrary to popular belief by some.

    Perhaps the debate of these conflicts is just more readily visible now, with instant communication being what it is. I'm sure there was very heated debate about issues in Lincoln's time.

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    In the quote provided from Lincoln, the term 'congressmen' was used. It didn't make any reference to a specific political party.
    The quote wasn't by Lincoln...it's a fake spread about by rightwing hacks.

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    I didn't like the criticism any more then than I do now. The president decides foreign policy, and the president knows more about the actual intelligence of world hot spots than we in the public do, contrary to popular belief by some.
    Judging by what we now know and are experiencing in Iraq, I'm sure anyone of reasonable intelligence would beg to differ. But, hey; keep spinning your stupid talking points. You're only making yourself look ridiculous.

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    scfire86,

    Come on........you know that politics and firefighting don't mix.


    AZFF
    __________________
    "Too many freaks and not enough circuses!"

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    Judging by what we now know and are experiencing in Iraq, I'm sure anyone of reasonable intelligence would beg to differ. But, hey; keep spinning your stupid talking points. You're only making yourself look ridiculous.

    Yes sir, Mr. Nozzleman, once again your superior knowledge and intellect has humbled me.
    I'd make a longer post, but I have my morning GWB whack off session to get to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZFF25 View Post
    scfire86,

    Come on........you know that politics and firefighting don't mix.


    AZFF
    Hey genius. You should look at the title of the forum. It's called OFF DUTY for a reason. Try reading. It's FUNdamental.

    And I like'd your PM to me.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    And I like'd your PM to me.


    Glad I could make you happy


    AZFF
    __________________
    "Too many freaks and not enough circuses!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZFF25 View Post
    Glad I could make you happy
    AZFF
    I was especially happy you PM'd me with a personal attack. It only proves you have nothing to add.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-01-2007 at 12:00 AM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    LMAO!!! I would be willing to guess that there have been folks critical of any war going back as far as the beginning of time. Does anyone think there were no critics of the revolutionary war? how about the Civil War (although I have never seen a war that was civil). I'm sure there were those who felt we shouldn't have been involved in WWI or WWII. I wonder what the world would look like today had we listened to those critics.

    I ask for consistency. If you supported the invasions under Clinton then you have to support the invasion of Iraq.

    And if you remember 9-11 and have read the commissions report you know we need to aggressively go after the terrorist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    LMAO!!! I would be willing to guess that there have been folks critical of any war going back as far as the beginning of time. Does anyone think there were no critics of the revolutionary war? how about the Civil War (although I have never seen a war that was civil).
    You would be correct.

    The War of 1812 was referred to by his enemies as "Mr. Madison's War."

    The Mexican-American War (and its architect James Polk - referred to as "the mendacious") was attacked by northern Whigs and Free Soil Democrat as a transparent pro-slavery land-grab.

    The War Between the States was a source of constant criticism of Lincoln from his copperhead Democrat opponents.

    The Spanish-American War was harshly criticized by a bevy of personages of both parties who opposed McKinley's foray into American imperialism - exactly what the US was not supposed to stand for.

    Woodrow Wilson's efforts to engage the US in European entanglements in WW I was a great source of voluble antipathy from staunch Republican isolationists. Woodrow was a great believer in the "new world order": - please See Bush the First).

    WW II is unique in enjoying virtually complete and wholehearted bipartisan support - something that can not be said of Korea or Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    I ask for consistency. If you supported the invasions under Clinton then you have to support the invasion of Iraq.
    I would if the two were similar in their rationale for invasion and the methodology used for that action. That is not the case in Iraq.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    ...
    I would if the two were similar in their rationale for invasion and the methodology used for that action. That is not the case in Iraq.
    My problem is that I have yet to hear a good rational reason for invading any country other than Afghanistan. Of course I am speaking post WWII

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    My problem is that I have yet to hear a good rational reason for invading any country other than Afghanistan. Of course I am speaking post WWII
    Failure to comply completely with UN mandates to open up for unrestricted inspections of his military bases was one reason given.The man gassed people within his own borders before and after Desert Shield/Desert Storm so he had them somewhere.Maybe he used them up killing his own countrymen of different ethnic and religious origin.Maybe he shipped them out of the country before suddenly being as co-operative as he got before I raqi Freedom kicked off.
    Or maybe this will **** you off:He actually ordered the destruction of Kuwaiti oil wells causing great environmental damage,greater than the Exxon Valdez spill,from which the region is still recovering from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Failure to comply completely with UN mandates to open up for unrestricted inspections of his military bases was one reason given.The man gassed people within his own borders before and after Desert Shield/Desert Storm so he had them somewhere.Maybe he used them up killing his own countrymen of different ethnic and religious origin.Maybe he shipped them out of the country before suddenly being as co-operative as he got before I raqi Freedom kicked off.
    Or maybe this will **** you off:He actually ordered the destruction of Kuwaiti oil wells causing great environmental damage,greater than the Exxon Valdez spill,from which the region is still recovering from.
    I guess you got me there... There was good reason to go after Saddam. But what about all of the others?

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    For punishment to be just it must be swift. Not 10-20 years later.

    For someone to punish another for something you both were complicit in is wrong.

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    For punishment to be just it must be swift. Not 10-20 years later.
    Excellent! Then you'll have no problem with speeding up the pace of executions in those states that conduct them.

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