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    Default Rescue-Engine Design Ideas

    The Tower has been spec'ed and the contract is being signed this week. Next week, the apparatus committee meets to begin a spec for a Rescue-Engine. I'm looking for input from people with good and bad experience with relatively new Rescue-Engines, both for manufacturers and design ideas. So far, the only decision made is a rear mount 2000 gpm pump. Any input is greatly appreciated! (I have searched and didn't find as much good data that I thought I would. Sorry if this has been touched upon recently. Forward links if available)







    By the way, the tower is a Sutphen SPH 100. 12-14 month build time.

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    Damn, you guys are right on our heels. We took delivery of a tower last November and go to bid on a rear mount rescue pumper this November.

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    The correct answer is what is needed on your apparatus and response area. In ours, the rescue engine is basically an engine first with some extrication abilities. Since not too much equipment is carried (cutters,jaws, few air bags,power saws and hand tools), the engine function does not suffer from extremely high hosebeds or an apparatus that is too long to manuever. Your requirements may be different than ours. With one push of the radio transmit button, I can get anything I need within minutes. We don't have to carry everything.

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    Our Rescue Engine is coming up on three years old. It is a Pierce with a 1500 gpm rear mount pump. Three hydraulic reels, electric and air reels (tool air cascade system) of each side. It has a 15,000# front mount winch and 9500# portable winch. Fixed lighting on all four sides, a light tower and portable lighting.

    It is very well equipped for vehicle extrication, it is very well equipped for engine company or rescue company operations on structure fires. We are well equipped for swift water and cold water (ice) rescue. We have the rope equipment to perform at the Operations Level for rope rescue.

    The vehicle was designed under a thought process of Big R (rescue) and Little E (engine) although outside of drafting I don't think there are any engine company operations that we would feel deficient in.

    If you scroll around our website you should see some pics of it www.fairfaxfire.org

    I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

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    Smile Rescue Engine

    W took delivery of a 2007 Pierce Enforcer rear mount rescue pumper, and we cant say enought good about it. We have the 1500 gpm S100 pump, 12 gpm foam system Class A. We use it as a wet rescue with no supply hose; coffin compartments, compartments in what would be the hosebed. 30 kw Harrison with a hot shift Pto, fixed quartz lights on all 4 sides which are the best i have used in 27 years, a 6000 watt light tower, and perconnected tools on the front and both sides. winch points on all 4 sides . The apparatus has suction hose for the one time we may need to draft . 100% LED lighting and chevreon striping.
    And the last sand and black interior that Pierce built.

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    A slight change of direction. Any Pierce rearmounts on a commercial chassis.

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    Lightbulb Rescue Engine

    Just returned from Pierce and noted a couple of interesting ideas out there. A apparatus from Concord, Virginia VFD had a 24" front bumper extension. Contained in that extension were the following:

    Outboard of the frame rails on each side were Hannay Reels with 100' Holmatro Core hydraulic lines.

    Between the frame rails was a shallow tray to hold the preconnected tools.

    All of the this equipment was protected by a hinged cover.

    Each reel was mounted in a enclosed tub to protect it from the elements.

    Looked like a clean set-up.

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    Default Rear Mount Rescue Pumper

    Quote Originally Posted by bsimpson145 View Post
    The Tower has been spec'ed and the contract is being signed this week. Next week, the apparatus committee meets to begin a spec for a Rescue-Engine. I'm looking for input from people with good and bad experience with relatively new Rescue-Engines, both for manufacturers and design ideas. So far, the only decision made is a rear mount 2000 gpm pump. Any input is greatly appreciated! (I have searched and didn't find as much good data that I thought I would. Sorry if this has been touched upon recently. Forward links if available)







    By the way, the tower is a Sutphen SPH 100. 12-14 month build time.
    www.Toyne.com Check out Dravosburg PA's rig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Damn, you guys are right on our heels. We took delivery of a tower last November and go to bid on a rear mount rescue pumper this November.
    Guess I'm bringing up the rear. We won't go to bid until very late in 2008 at earliest.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Adam,get a few of the guys together and come see me.I've got a nice RP(mid not rear mt)you might get a few ideas from.Give you an excuse to get out of the City for a few minutes.Honey do can wait a day,hehe T.C.

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    TC - Would it be possible for you to snap some digital pics of compartment set up / equipment and email me in your spare time?

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    Yes,it would as soon as I can corner my IT guy.Probably can corner him this weekend.I'll see what I can do. T.C.

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    Make sure your preconnected hydraulic rescue tools have hoses long enough to keep the engine out of the "hot zone," 100 feet is just a bit on the short side if you want to work 360degrees around the accident, I would go with 150 if we had to do it again.

    Make sure you spec in 360 degree lighting, our RP has a ton of lighting on it, but the only forward lighting is the headlight, which are blocked when you open the "hood" on the front bumper to take the tools out. The only other on-board lights are two rear of the cab mounted tele-lights which are partly blocked by the cab. I'd difinietly look into a light tower.

    If you spec front bumper compartments (preconnect HRT or hoses) make sure the compartment is water proof, will save you a lot of grief down the road.

    If you spec a front bumper compartment, make sure it does not interfere with road lights and creat massive dark spots in front of the truck at night.

    If you spec bumper mounted bell or Q2B same as above.

    Personally I'd stay away from roll-up doors, expensive and fragile, better to spec a really good door-ajar alarm than rely on roll-ups to prevent truck-station door accidents.

    If you spec an arrow board on the rear, make sure it is visible when all the other warning lights are on, not uncommon to see warning lights outshining arrow boards making them useless.

    Good luck, if I come up with any other ideas I'll post them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire304 View Post

    If you spec an arrow board on the rear, make sure it is visible when all the other warning lights are on, not uncommon to see warning lights outshining arrow boards making them useless.
    And if you're getting a traffic advisor (what 304 mentioned...), get a true arrow board.

    Not many drivers understand the traffic advisors where lights just go one side ot the other, the "arrows" point to the appropriate direction!
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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    Similar thoughts here, 304, all the way back in 2004 no less!
    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...ighlight=reels

    Starting points:

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...ghlight=pumper

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...ight=hydraulic

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...ight=hydraulic

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...ight=hydraulic

    Do "advanced" searches and limit your results to the Apparatus Innovation section. There's way more good info out there already.

    As for arrow boards, DOT style is the way to go. Non-compliant traffic advisors = waste of money IMHO.

    PS - Good to see you and the fam last week. I miss being around...
    Last edited by Resq14; 10-03-2007 at 09:46 PM.
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    304 has many great tips, but I'll offer one descenting opinion. We prefer the roll-up doors for ease of removing heavy equipment. With a rescue engine you're apt to carry cribbing, jacks, rescue tools, etc. that have some weight or bulk. We have found that short of full transverse roll out trays the equpiment is still "inside" when using standard hinged doors. Try having two firefighters remove a portable generator when they have to reach straight in and lift and pull toward them vs. using roll ups and a roll out tray where both firefighters can position themselves on either side to lift straight up. Same with any heavier equipment, dual hinged doors force you to reach in even with a roll out tray.

    Also, on a RP, most of the time the space above 72" from the ground is unuseable as not all firefighhters can reach or see that high. So the space taken by roll ups is not as great a loss as on a standard pumper or aerial. Of course it may rob coffin compartment space or interfere with mount multiple reels (if depth is shallow), but in all I like the ability for the tools to come all the way out from the comparment. Or the ability to get closer in to the compartment without banging my elbows on the hinged doors.

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    RFDACM02, on our EMS rescue truck, we put easily removeable pins in the door "closers" so that the pin can be removed and the doors opened almost 180 degrees instead of 90. Gets them out of the way for the heavy stuff.

    Of course, you can't have 2 adjacent compartments open more than 90 at a time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    RFDACM02, on our EMS rescue truck, we put easily removeable pins in the door "closers" so that the pin can be removed and the doors opened almost 180 degrees instead of 90. Gets them out of the way for the heavy stuff.

    Of course, you can't have 2 adjacent compartments open more than 90 at a time.
    Another good idea. We have one door like that on an engine, but it was as a result of poor workmanship in the first place necessitating some ingenuity on the closure device. . As long a people are careful ensuring one door is closed before opening another I think its a decent option. We've just not seen the issues others have with roll-up doors nor have we heard too many horror storues from those with ROM who keep the tracks clean.

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    Post Rescue Engines ?

    Do the fire departments that own a rescue engine also have a light duty or heavy duty rescue in service at there station. We made a big misteak back in 1998 by buying a commercial cab Heavy Rescue and not getting a custom cab Rescue engine, and then going out buying a pumper in 2005, we could have had one apparatus to do the job of two and extra space in the truck bay for a longer Aerial or tower !....
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 10-11-2007 at 07:43 PM.

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    If you need a bit of extra space, chop the front bumper off that rescue. It appears to only have a Q mounted on it anyways
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    RFDACM02, on our EMS rescue truck, we put easily removeable pins in the door "closers" so that the pin can be removed and the doors opened almost 180 degrees instead of 90. Gets them out of the way for the heavy stuff.

    Of course, you can't have 2 adjacent compartments open more than 90 at a time.
    Cool solution that addresses the only real advantage rollups have.
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    While I am oppossed to the whole rescue/engine concept as a whole, I do have some experience in the matter and have some opinions on the matter:

    First you have to look at your department and its needs. Is your department looking for an engine that just has some extrication tools, or does it want the to have the capability of responding to high angle, confined space, collapse etc.

    If you are in a busy jusrisdiction I would advise against roll up doors. In my experience they do not hold up well to frequent use. Also during travel items stored in compartments often times shift up against the door making it more difficult to open and some times close once opened. Not a big deal, but a nusance. The argument that it gives you a narrower profile can be defeated by proper apparatus positioning allowing the r/e to protect the rescuers. Coffin compartments are fine for things that you dont really ever use, which makes me wonder if you need to be putting them on the wagon in the first place, and if you do, dont put anyting remotely heavy up there, because it delays efforts and will take at least two people to get whatever it is down.

    As far as preconnected cord reel lengths for the tools, I would say 100ft is more than sufficient in most cases. The problem with having un needed persons and crowding in the "hot zone" is not because of preconnect length but poor personel management. That is also aimed at companies who arrive before you blocking you out, although it is usually not that big a deal unless you are pulling up behind a tiller truck on a narrow street. You can also adress that by carrying a few pony sections of line if you feel you are going to be a few feet short and having at least one portable power unit that can handle at least two tools operating at once. Also, the further you park away, they further you have to carry your equipment.

    Invest money on good tools and forget about the combi tool. A good set of cutters is always in more demand than a spreader. Make sure to have sawz alls with a good battery life because they will always die, better if you can have the option to hook them to a junction box, that way you know that it will be good to go to get the "c" post out of the way since it is usually quicker than doing it with a cutter.

    Also spec out a preconnected trash line on the front bumper of at least 50'. Nothing more combersome than seeing one guy flaking out 200' of hose when the car being cut apart is 20 ft away and he is getting tangled up in all the tool lines.

    Dont waste your money on a light tower. Your driver should be too busy setting up needed tools and equipment than to take time to spend fiddling with a joystick. Get scene lights you can remove and set up on a tripod if you are that worried about lighting, it is usually quicker. Arrowboards are another unecessary item. In my experience people dont pay attention to them, or the twenty other red and white blinky lights anyway, you are just an inconvenience to them.

    Those are just some of my views on it, but then again, I could be talking out my ***. Oh and dont hold it against me for spelling or grammer, Im a fireman, not an english major.

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    "While I am oppossed to the whole rescue/engine concept as a whole, I do have some experience in the matter and have some opinions on the matter:"

    Why are you opposed?

    "If you are in a busy jusrisdiction I would advise against roll up doors. In my experience they do not hold up well to frequent use. Also during travel items stored in compartments often times shift up against the door making it more difficult to open and some times close once opened. Not a big deal, but a nusance. The argument that it gives you a narrower profile can be defeated by proper apparatus positioning allowing the r/e to protect the rescuers."

    Not my experience. And the definitely provide a narrower profile along with allowing the placing of heavy objects on pull out trays by two people on each side, plus the ability for hydraulic, air and electric lines to deploy much easier.

    "Invest money on good tools and forget about the combi tool. A good set of cutters is always in more demand than a spreader. Make sure to have sawz alls with a good battery life because they will always die, better if you can have the option to hook them to a junction box, that way you know that it will be good to go to get the "c" post out of the way since it is usually quicker than doing it with a cutter."

    Keep the combi tool since it is lighter and normally the tips can get into smaller places then the big spreader BUT I agree.... cutters are more in demand the spreader. For us one big spreader, one combi tool and two cutters has worked very well. Try the 36 Volt system from DeWalt, so far the battery life on them has been very impressive (had them for about a year) but back them up with corded tools. We carry five Sawz Alls- 2 DeWalt battery operated, 2 Dewalt corded and one Hilti Demolition Saw.

    "Also spec out a preconnected trash line on the front bumper of at least 50'. Nothing more combersome than seeing one guy flaking out 200' of hose when the car being cut apart is 20 ft away and he is getting tangled up in all the tool lines."

    Our front bumper line is 150' but we don't mix functions when we are operating. If we are on the call as a Rescue we don't do Engine ops. If we are on the scene as an Engine we would provide the protective hose line. Good thought though about not making extra spaghetti.

    "Dont waste your money on a light tower. Your driver should be too busy setting up needed tools and equipment than to take time to spend fiddling with a joystick. Get scene lights you can remove and set up on a tripod if you are that worried about lighting, it is usually quicker. Arrowboards are another unecessary item. In my experience people dont pay attention to them, or the twenty other red and white blinky lights anyway, you are just an inconvenience to them."

    Definitely get a light tower. Not sure how setting up tripods is quicker then a light tower? The amount of WAY overhead lighting provided by a light tower is impressive. But make sure you have good scene lighting all around the vehicle for when you initially arrive and operations are getting set up. Once your tools have been staged by the driver he can take 60 seconds to turn night into day and make your operation much easier.

    Skip the "arrow board" for traffic directional uses. Add it back for great amber lighting on the rear of your vehicle which will be seen at night a lot better then red blinky lights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bk101484 View Post
    While I am oppossed to the whole rescue/engine concept as a whole
    Based on what?

    If you are in a busy jusrisdiction I would advise against roll up doors. In my experience they do not hold up well to frequent use. Also during travel items stored in compartments often times shift up against the door making it more difficult to open and some times close once opened. Not a big deal, but a nusance.
    The engine I ride at work is doing 2500 runs a year, department as a whole will clear 40,000 runs in 2007. Everything purchased since 1997 has had roll-ups on it, and there are no plans to go away from 'em. This includes 20 engines, 3 rescues, and 5 tower ladders. As long as the personnel take the time to secure the eequipment, there are no problems.

    The argument that it gives you a narrower profile can be defeated by proper apparatus positioning allowing the r/e to protect the rescuers.
    Let's plan for the times that we CAN'T position the rig we want to.

    Coffin compartments are fine for things that you dont really ever use, which makes me wonder if you need to be putting them on the wagon in the first place, and if you do, dont put anyting remotely heavy up there, because it delays efforts and will take at least two people to get whatever it is down.
    Agreed.

    Invest money on good tools and forget about the combi tool. A good set of cutters is always in more demand than a spreader. Make sure to have sawz alls with a good battery life because they will always die, better if you can have the option to hook them to a junction box, that way you know that it will be good to go to get the "c" post out of the way since it is usually quicker than doing it with a cutter.
    Don't dismiss the combi-tool as a valubable asset when making a door pop on a vehicle of modern construction. The combi-tools aren't made for heavy extrications of course, and aren't a replacement for heavy tools, but they are a nice compliment to a full set.

    Agreed on the Sawz-All.

    Also spec out a preconnected trash line on the front bumper of at least 50'. Nothing more combersome than seeing one guy flaking out 200' of hose when the car being cut apart is 20 ft away and he is getting tangled up in all the tool lines.
    Also agreed. Two 50' lines in a double-doughnut roll works well and takes up little space.

    Dont waste your money on a light tower. Your driver should be too busy setting up needed tools and equipment than to take time to spend fiddling with a joystick.
    WTF? There's no doubt that it takes a minute to set a light tower up, but you're saying deploying tripods is quicker? If anything, they're more cumbersome, take more steps, and take your pump operator away from setting up tools and equipment. Use a nice compliment of fixed floods to start off with, and get that light tower in the air ASAP! If you're Will-Burt is too slow, get a Command Light!

    Arrowboards are another unecessary item. In my experience people dont pay attention to them, or the twenty other red and white blinky lights anyway, you are just an inconvenience to them.
    That's why you put a Whelen 72" traffic director on the back, it will actually stand out amongst all of the other lights. Or go so far as to put 'em on the sides of the rig like Montgomery County, MD is doing now.

    Remember, amber LED is not as bright as LED, but the opposite is true for incandescent. Therefore, use LED for everything but amber, put a halogen/incandescent traffic director on the rig.

    Those are just some of my views on it, but then again, I could be talking out my ***.
    That's why this country is great, we're all entitled to our own opinions!

    At our VFD, we're actually spec'ing a R-E now. While it WILL have extrication tools and reels, and all that wonderful stuff, the bigger reason is for the extra stuff that the FD is expected to carry now, even on engine companies. We gotta run it for 15 years, so we want the room to grow and expand during the life expectancy of the rig.

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    RFDACM02, I agree with what you say about roll-ups and large equipment, but its been my findings that things like cribbing constantly jam up the door (unless you're willing to not fill the compartment to the lip of the door and invest in some sort of pretty nice retention system, for the cribbing. I've experienced several minor accidents where doors get bound up. I've also seen a neighboring FD have a tool come adrift in a compartment and jam it right shut as in only able to open about 2 inches. Luckily it was a cross compartment so they were able to climb through the truck to remove the offending pry bar, but had they needed something in that compartment on scene... I dont know if I'd go so far as to agree with bk101484 statement about them not holding up, they are much more fussy about being properly cleaned and definitely won't last as long as a conventional door in an abusive environment. Given a cost-benefit annalists, I'd have to go with the conventional most of the time. Incorporate Bone's idea, invest in trays, and try to avoid heavy removable items. Our generators are all fix mounted units(except a couple of little Honda's). The heaviest item we have to remove is our winch, a little bit of a lift but not that bad, tray mounted.

    bk101484, I agree that the big spreaders and the speedway cutting tool are better in a major work extrication, the combi is on our bumper preconnect and is pulled most often and performs adequately 95% of the time, the big tools are also preconnected if we should need it (we have 3 reels). I still find 100' to be just a bit short at times, 125 or 150 would be my first choice. And I have to strongly disagree with the light tower comment. I've spent much time setting up those stupid "trip-pod" lights and their extension cords so the extrication team can see whats going on rather than my "assigned" duty of pump operator/safety observer. With a remote controlled WilBurt tower I could have done things much quicker and not left my post at the pump panel.

    Yes, it was good to see you 14!
    Last edited by Fire304; 10-07-2007 at 04:36 PM.
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