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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauraboczek View Post
    Thanks Lots of people think so.
    That's real nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by lauraboczek View Post
    I never said you supported communism. I was just saying...if 807 people have told you something, you think you'd get the hint...that's all.
    And what hint would that be? Your first sentence makes no sense when placed next to the second sentence. You need to be more specific. Should I accept the fact that people call me or compare me to a communist or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by lauraboczek View Post
    Ohhh so you have lots of stuff, and that makes you better than us, huh? Wow. That takes real cajones to start talking about what kind of material crap you own or we don't own. You must have some big ones. But since we're on the subject, I'm a 26 year old woman, and I own my own home (A very nice one at that), a brand new car, and I own my own business. And I have plenty of toys. But I won't bore you with the gory details of all the "stuff" I own. Because it's not important to me.
    That whooshing sound you may or may not hear is the point zooming past you at warp speed. In a society like the US ( or Great Britain, Japan, et al) one is allowed to own private property like a home(s), or a business, or just about anything else for that matter. It is popularly known as capitalism. In a communist society (like what I am accused of being), all property (even your toys) are owned by the state. That concept used to be taught in HS civics classes. It might still be, but you might have been absent that day. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.


    Quote Originally Posted by lauraboczek View Post
    It's just stuff, I'm sure you wouldn't understand.
    It's actually you that didn't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by lauraboczek View Post
    so I can't imagine that you would want to serve our country. THAT is the kind of "stuff" that is important to a lot of us, especially being firefighters, many of us have military experience or families in the military.
    This is too much fun. Waaay back before you were born, the military had a draft to help support its manpower needs during wartime. I was one of those drafted toward the end of the Vietnam War. Now I didn't have a daddy with influential friends who could get me a cush assignment in the National Guard where I could be reassigned to work on a politcal campaign in Alabama (like the president). Nor did my dad have the resources to send me to college to get five (count 'em five) deferments (like the vice president). Nor did I have an easily fixed medical malady like a boil on my butt that would get me a medical deferment (like a certain convicted felon, draft dodging, drug abusing conservative radio talk show host). I took my induction orders and was sworn in the Army. While I was in basic training the president determined our presence in Vietnam would be reduced so I was never deployed to combat. Unlike the others I was prepared to go and serve my country since it called. Even though it too was a conflict I didn't agree with. So my dear, I have served my country. I didn't avoid that responsibility like so many others who claim to be patriots but who ran the other way when they had their opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by lauraboczek View Post
    The material crap you own does not make you sh*t. (Pardon my language). It doesn't make you happy, or liked, or a good person. What you do and say, not what you own, makes you the person you are. So in my eyes, you don't look real appealing, even with all your "assets"...
    I never said it to impress you. Sadly that is how you interpreted it because of your parochial thought process. I stated my support of owning property to make the point that you and Resq1scnd2none make judgements about people (and make personal attacks) in complete ignorance.

    My thanks to your husband and his service to our country. I hope he finds an activity that will give him the fulfillment he hoped to have in the USMC.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-04-2007 at 09:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firecat1 View Post
    I can't believe I'm doing this but I actually agree with HT for once. As an Army vet, that "piece of fabric" gets hung outside my home every day to show respect for my homeland, honor for my fellow soldiers who have died defending this country and it even stands for the future hopes of this nation.
    In 1777, it was considered an honor to be the colorguard of a regiment of militiamen. Nevermind the fact that carrying the Betsy Ross or Cowpens Flag or any other variation at a distance of a few feet in front of a column of men essentially labeled the bearer with a huge f'ing bull's eye; there were plenty of volunteers who openly disregarded that miniscule fact and would willingly and without hesitation drop their muskets in exchange for the flag should its previous bearer fall. Some symbol, I say.

    Now, I don't know why some choose to trivialize the worth of the U.S. Flag. Even the Declaration of Independence was nothing more than symbolic at the time it was delievered to the desk of King George III (the U.S. Constitution as we know it would not come until 1789, so they weren't fighting for that just yet). The ONLY thing that gives these documents any worth at all is the men who have and will shed blood and die if need be for the preservation of a people back home. But I ask as I have asked before in many a flag-debate threads: what is it that these troops wear on their shoulders when they go into battle? What is stamped on the ammo boxes and flies above the barracks or from the mast of a ship sailing into troubled waters? A stapled copy of the U.S. Bill of Rights? I think not; that might be too hard for the enemy to see.

    But if our enemies should come and burn the original copy of the Constitution, would we not say that it is a symbol as well? Or would we give up, all is lost, our country's life blood is no more? The Constitution - a pile of ashes. I believe that we would assemble and march into battle under the 'Flag of the United States of America and the country for which it stands' - a culmination of what makes our country, despite our innumerable and inconspicuous flaws, a land in which I am blessed to live.

    To argue that the flag is any less important that the Bill of Rights is unfair. If that is truly the case, the sentries at Arlington Cemetery should tear down the Flag immediately and begin handing out pocket sized editions of the Constitution. Perhaps we should be folding the Constitution into triangles and presenting it to grieving widows.

    This is not an arguement for which I have the patience to maintain. It is, however, an arguement which I look forward to witnessing in the afterlife, when we can take up such issues with the likes of General John Stark.

    "My men, yonder are the Hessians. They were brought for seven pounds and ten pence a man. Are you worth more? Prove it. Tonight, the American flag floats from yonder hill or Molly Stark sleeps a widow!"

    Some symbol, I say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodSendRain View Post
    The ONLY thing that gives these documents any worth at all is the men who have and will shed blood and die if need be for the preservation of a people back home.
    I believe if someone blew up the US Archives with the Declaration of Independence and Constitution inside we as Americans would still exist and would still fight for our way of life. If somehow every US flag were destroyed through some type of event, we as Americans would still exist and would still fight to defend the principles of our flag and what it represents.

    As you state several times it is quite a symbol indeed. But it is still a symbol that isn't worth fighting over because some redneck with a big knife didn't approve of the way a private citizen on private property (two principles we as Americans hold dear and what the flag represents to those who died fighting for those same principles) was displaying it.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-05-2007 at 10:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Thank you for speaking up as a veteran.

    First of all, I'm not defending the flag owner's actions. I have no way to know if his actions were intentional or just ignorance of proper etiquette and respect for the US flag. In the end, that doesn't really matter anyway.

    Let me suggest to you that protecting the Constitution includes protecting the Bill of Rights. The man who cut the flag down was blatantly infringing on the flag owner's 1st Amendment rights. One of the hallmarks of the American Constitution is that it protects everybody's rights -- including the flag owner's in this case. When the veteran in the video cut down that flag (and then stole it) he was in direct violation of his oath to protect the Constitution. He shamed himself and, by association, other veterans.

    I don't know if he acting out of ignorance either but he was clearly in the wrong no matter how pure his intentions may have been. It's a shame that he apparently never learned what he was really protecting in the military.

    I agreed with you I too was not saying what either one did was right but what the Vet did was wrong and we was willing to defend his actions in court if necessary.
    SC I still stand by my statements and would like to say we shall agree to disagree. You have the right to state your beliefs I fought for that and almost died for it. BUT on those same terms so do people with opposing views. I know you did not say they couldnt but you have gone out of your way to discredit and belittle anyone who disagrees with you. I on the other hand will not discredit nor belittle you for your beliefs and I think that this country would be boring without opposing views. Enjoy the freedoms granted you by those who have fought for them. May you have peace and prosper in all you do.

    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost62 View Post
    You have the right to state your beliefs I fought for that and almost died for it.
    You fought and almost died for what the flag represents. Not a piece of cloth.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You fought and almost died for what the flag represents. Not a piece of cloth.
    Sorry but you dont have the right to tell me what I did or didnt do. You only have the right to express you opinion and we al know about opinions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You fought and almost died for what the flag represents. Not a piece of cloth.
    If you are married, do you have (not necessarily wear) a wedding band? If so, if someone tried to take away or destroy that band, would you not become upset? After all, "it's just a piece of gold".

    That flag is everything to many of us. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion and, as long as that flag flies over this great nation, you'll have the right to voice that opinion but kindly don't belittle the rest of us for honoring the flag as a physical manifestation of our beliefs. To us, it is so much more than just "a piece of cloth".

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As you state several times it is quite a symbol indeed. But it is still a symbol that isn't worth fighting over because some redneck with a big knife didn't approve of the way a private citizen on private property (two principles we as Americans hold dear and what the flag represents to those who died fighting for those same principles) was displaying it.
    Hate to say it. But he has a point. An American citizen flew his private owned flag over his other privately owned flag on his privately own property. Did the guy with the "American Army Knife" (made in japan...lol) over react...YES. And for what A symbol of a country?! Kind of silly.

    I can see the point scfire86 is making. Did scfire86 have to a pompous *****, by trying to seem smarter than the average bear, about it when people got mad about his response...NO. What else do you expect. Most people are still PO about 9/11. And are still on a rant.Sorry scfire86 though you have a valid point, you should have expected the response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firecat1 View Post
    If you are married, do you have (not necessarily wear) a wedding band? If so, if someone tried to take away or destroy that band, would you not become upset? After all, "it's just a piece of gold".
    If someone put a gun in my face or some redneck put a knife to my throat and demanded I give him my wedding band I can assure you I would fork it right over. And I know my wife well enough after almost 30 years to know she would rather I come home without my wedding band rather than get killed fighting to keep it.

    It is the love we have for one another that has kept us together this long. Not a piece of gold or a rock made out of compressed carbon.

    Similarly I believe in fighting for the principles of our nation and what the flag represents. Not a piece of cloth.

    Does that help?
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-05-2007 at 02:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If someone put a gun in my face or some redneck put a knife to my throat and demanded I give him my wedding band I can assure you I would fork it right over. And I know my wife well enough after almost 30 years to know she would rather I come home without my wedding band rather than get killed fighting to keep it.

    It is the love we have for one another that has kept us together this long. Not a piece of gold or a rock made out of compressed carbon.

    Similarly I believe in fighting for the principles of our nation and what the flag represents. Not a piece of cloth.

    Does that help?
    We are flexible enough to accept your point of view, why will you not return the courtesy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firecat1 View Post
    We are flexible enough to accept your point of view, why will you not return the courtesy?
    This is probably a better way to say what I tried to earlier...lol
    "Courage is the resistance to fear, the mastery of fear, not the lack of fear." Mark Twain
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    Quote Originally Posted by firecat1 View Post
    We are flexible enough to accept your point of view, why will you not return the courtesy?
    You may want to reread this thread. I was compared to mass murderers. You'll have to pardon me if I take offense to that.
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    don't take offense.

    (see this is why I like American spelling. )

    It is stealing other peoples property to take o fence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If someone put a gun in my face or some redneck put a knife to my throat and demanded I give him my wedding band I can assure you I would fork it right over. And I know my wife well enough after almost 30 years to know she would rather I come home without my wedding band rather than get killed fighting to keep it.

    It is the love we have for one another that has kept us together this long. Not a piece of gold or a rock made out of compressed carbon.

    Similarly I believe in fighting for the principles of our nation and what the flag represents. Not a piece of cloth.

    Does that help?

    Yeah, but imagine if you had gone home to tell her you punched the thug in the throat and crushed his larynx. That sounds a lot sexier, and you get to keep the ring.

    But seriously, I don't think the "redneck" guy had a right to go on another man's property and steal his flag. I do feel the flag has a bit more significance than you and others give it credit for, but there is our difference of opinion, and I'm not going to try to change your mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Yawn. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. I never said the people or the prinicples aren't worth fighting over. I said the objects aren't worth dying over.

    Big difference. Like I said earlier. With a little luck, one day you'll be able to tell the difference.
    I wonder if the French thought that as Germany eminent domained their a... Ever notice how the first thing done in the conquered land is to get the new flag up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodSendRain View Post
    Yeah, but imagine if you had gone home to tell her you punched the thug in the throat and crushed his larynx. That sounds a lot sexier, and you get to keep the ring.
    Nice joke. I could also just as easily end up dead given that scenario. I'd rather give up the ring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamin441 View Post
    I wonder if the French thought that as Germany eminent domained their a... Ever notice how the first thing done in the conquered land is to get the new flag up?
    And your point is? The French's ability to resist was minimal. Your scenario is similar to what is going on Iraq. The French weren't able to confront the Germans militarily so they fought unconventionally via the French Resistance. The insurgents in Iraq are in no way capable of fighting us head on in a fight, so they are fighting us unconventionally. To use a historical comparison. If the Revolutionary War is the model, the US is the British.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You may want to reread this thread. I was compared to mass murderers. You'll have to pardon me if I take offense to that.
    You know that there are going to be extremists in every discussion, folks that go too far and get unacceptably crass in expressing themselves, sometimes just to see if they can push someone else's buttons. I am not of that school of thought. I don't get my jollies by argueing; only calm, rational discussion of an issue is worth the effort of thought and response. I refuse to get embroiled in a any form of hair pulling and name calling, written or verbal.

    I asked you a simple, polite question; would you please politely give a direct answer? Will you admit that a symbol, be it a flag, a ring, a building, can be and often is, the physical manifestation of a belief or ideal and, as such, can generate deep emotional attachment to said item, thus making it worth fighting or at least standing up for?
    Last edited by firecat1; 10-05-2007 at 07:53 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by firecat1 View Post
    Will you admit that a symbol, be it a flag, a ring, a building, can be and often is, the physical manifestation of a belief or ideal and, as such, can generate deep emotional attachment to said item, thus making it worth fighting or at least standing up for?
    To some. Not me. The first rule of the fire service is life over property. I see no reason why that belief isn't used for other issues. Rings and flags can be replaced. Buildings can be rebuilt. The dead can never be brought back to life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    To some....
    That is the only part of your overall answer that is directly answering my specific question. What was so hard about making that response?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    And your point is? The French's ability to resist was minimal. Your scenario is similar to what is going on Iraq. The French weren't able to confront the Germans militarily so they fought unconventionally via the French Resistance. The insurgents in Iraq are in no way capable of fighting us head on in a fight, so they are fighting us unconventionally. To use a historical comparison. If the Revolutionary War is the model, the US is the British.
    I don't seem to recall the minutemen intentionally slaughtering innocent women and children in market squares. They did throw some tea into the water once. A travesty indeed.

    So, is there any justification for the terrorist tactics we are seeing in the mideast? Are they not deplorable acts in themselves and nothing more, nothing less? If the sniping of British officers with Kentucky long rifles was appalling in its day, simply imagine the shock of witnessing patriots steering flaming gun powder wagons into Boston schoolyards full of children with minimal chance of killing a few enemy soldiers. Oh wait, the British wouldn't have been hiding in school yards - another deplorable tactic our modern enemy uses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodSendRain View Post
    I don't seem to recall the minutemen intentionally slaughtering innocent women and children in market squares. They did throw some tea into the water once. A travesty indeed.

    So, is there any justification for the terrorist tactics we are seeing in the mideast? Are they not deplorable acts in themselves and nothing more, nothing less? If the sniping of British officers with Kentucky long rifles was appalling in its day, simply imagine the shock of witnessing patriots steering flaming gun powder wagons into Boston schoolyards full of children with minimal chance of killing a few enemy soldiers. Oh wait, the British wouldn't have been hiding in school yards - another deplorable tactic our modern enemy uses.
    Absolutely not. I was making a comparison between a militarily superior foe being confronted by those in opposition of lesser ability. I never said the terrorists doing all the things you state as being honorable or ethical.
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    I say- ITS ABOUT TIME!!!

    America has gotten so soft were we have to let everything slide and bow to everyone's rights, objections and feelings.

    Thank you to the man that walked up with the knife. America needs a shot in the arm right now. We need to stop suing each other and get back to basics.

    About f-ing time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    I say- ITS ABOUT TIME!!!

    Thank you to the man that walked up with the knife. America needs a shot in the arm right now. We need to stop suing each other and get back to basics.

    About f-ing time.
    I totally agree!!!!

    Thank you oh bearded one with the knife.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffscm72 View Post
    Hate to say it. But he has a point. An American citizen flew his private owned flag over his other privately owned flag on his privately own property. Did the guy with the "American Army Knife" (made in japan...lol) over react...YES. And for what A symbol of a country?! Kind of silly.

    I can see the point scfire86 is making. Did scfire86 have to a pompous *****, by trying to seem smarter than the average bear, about it when people got mad about his response...NO. What else do you expect. Most people are still PO about 9/11. And are still on a rant.Sorry scfire86 though you have a valid point, you should have expected the response.
    Yes but the jackass flying the flags was making a very bad statement. He was putting Mexico over America. If that is the way he feels then ship his tired butt back! Maybe you wouldn't mind if the same goof came in and took a big dump on your departments patch! The POS made a statement by doing what he did, and a fine American citizen did what the PC people don't have the guts to do. By that man who ripped down the flag a keg!!!!

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