1. #1
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    Default Rural water storage tank - Slurrystore

    Local farm has retired a Slurrystore tank and is making it available to FD for water storage. In an area we badly need it (approx 150000gal). Slurrystore are steel tanks erected for long term storage of cattle/hog waste (liquid).
    http://www.slurrystore.com/

    Up North (NE Iowa) where may reach -20F in Jan/Feb in bad years so will have ice on the top/sides of the tank.

    We plan to install a hydrant hookup on the tank to connect 5"S to pumper.

    Anyone out there using similar or other above grade tanks up North?

    Valve/hookup on the side of the tank likely not an option as likely will have winter freeze (and valve failure).

    I think installing a large diameter intake thru the floor (concrete I think) with strainer above floor level. Discharge pipe to run below frost line to a shut off valve and then to the hydrant. But a bit expensive.

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    Just a thought, but could you bury the line and put a regular hydrant on it? Then "draft" from the hyrant? The basic thing I'm thinking is having a dry hydrant and a below-ground valve, I'm sure it could be accomplished a different way than a hydrant, but that's what came to mind.

    We've got a camp nearby (it's actually the camp that Extreme Makeover: Home Edition did a couple years ago) that installed a large above-ground tank and a couple of hydrants on it (two different locations) for water service and fire protection. I haven't gotten the opportunity to see how they valved the hydrants, but if I can get a chance soon I'll get you a description and a couple of pictures of the set-up.

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    I think using an old hydrant will simplify a lot as well. If you home build the valve, how do you plan to drain the cold side? The hydrant will do that for you as part of a standard installation.


    Other than that, I assume you are planning on adding glycol to the tank to prevent freeze-up? Can you simply configure a valve that stays on the inside of the tank?
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    We have a historic mansion that has a 30,000 gallon cistern that sits about 50/50 above/below ground. The trustees installed a regular hydrant at the driveway level for drafting, because access to the cistern is limited during most of the year (parking area for functions & snow bound during the winter).

    Took the boys up there for a drafting drill to test out the system. Lo & behold, couldn't do it. A 4 1/2" male hydrant steamer connection & 6" male hard suction don't connect very readily. The trustees had to order a double female. As soon as it arrives, we'll try again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Local farm has retired a Slurrystore tank and is making it available to FD for water storage. In an area we badly need it (approx 150000gal). Slurrystore are steel tanks erected for long term storage of cattle/hog waste (liquid).
    http://www.slurrystore.com/

    Up North (NE Iowa) where may reach -20F in Jan/Feb in bad years so will have ice on the top/sides of the tank.

    We plan to install a hydrant hookup on the tank to connect 5"S to pumper.

    Anyone out there using similar or other above grade tanks up North?

    Valve/hookup on the side of the tank likely not an option as likely will have winter freeze (and valve failure).

    I think installing a large diameter intake thru the floor (concrete I think) with strainer above floor level. Discharge pipe to run below frost line to a shut off valve and then to the hydrant. But a bit expensive.
    Way out of my element here, just some thoughts/questions.

    The tank is designed for manure storage, so I wonder if there are any special considerations when storing water in it.

    Are the tanks designed to freeze? Not knowing anything about manure, but perhaps it doesn't freeze like water does? The website also mentions something about an agitator (does that keep it from freezing?)?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    We have a historic mansion that has a 30,000 gallon cistern that sits about 50/50 above/below ground. The trustees installed a regular hydrant at the driveway level for drafting, because access to the cistern is limited during most of the year (parking area for functions & snow bound during the winter).

    Took the boys up there for a drafting drill to test out the system. Lo & behold, couldn't do it. A 4 1/2" male hydrant steamer connection & 6" male hard suction don't connect very readily. The trustees had to order a double female. As soon as it arrives, we'll try again.
    I thought about this when I was typing my reply. I figured surely common sense would prevail and someone would think of this situation. Not that NEIOWA wouldn't have, but apparently someone neglected to at one time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    Took the boys up there for a drafting drill to test out the system. Lo & behold, couldn't do it. A 4 1/2" male hydrant steamer connection & 6" male hard suction don't connect very readily. The trustees had to order a double female. As soon as it arrives, we'll try again.
    We equip our hard suction with Storz on both ends for that very reason. We have adapters for the various hydrants in the area, so we can draft off almost anything if so inclined.

    In a case like that, you are probably better off to just change the steamer port to a size you carry as well. It is not a big job on most hydrants.


    The website also mentions something about an agitator (does that keep it from freezing?)?
    The agitator is externally driven by a tractor to mix the slurry for the purposes of fertilizer use. It would have no real use in preventing freeze-up of water only as you would have to run it constantly, which is certainly not cost effective to have an engine left running for this purpose.

    I think a few gallons (i.e. a dozen or so) of glycol would reduce the freezing temp to the point where it would only build a crust on top during a deep freeze, and the middle would stay liquid. That would cost maybe a hundred bucks a year at most to winterize it. You would have to be careful about breaking that crust during ops though. If you created a large void below the ice, and it failed suddenly, the shock load to the walls would be significant.

    The idea of partially burying it might be valuable too. If you could get the base four or five feet down, you would actually draw heat UPWARDS into the tank all winter long. This is why ponds and lakes don't freeze deeply, and maintain constant temperatures at depth.

    Without some mitigating measures, that tank could freeze nearly solid with a week or two of -20.
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    The hydrant is a std fire hydrant (steamer) from my std source FEPP/mil surplus (got 16x). 5"S on the steamer.

    The Slurrystore was assembled at least 20yrs ago. I'm expecting a top sheet around 24-30" (typical for ponds in the area) and side wall ice similar. This is what I typically have on the blivet/collapsible tanks I have set up. Does not freeze solid due to heat gain thru the bottom. My working theory is same will be true with the slurrystore. The slurrystore have thicker steel and double bolted (compared to the std blue tall Harvistore silos) for extra strength req for liquid storage. Expansion with freeze is the issue. Waiting for a return call from the mfg.

    I'm wondering if anyone else has actually used a slurrystore and how they plumbed the tank hookup (thru the floor or otherwise).

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    Your tank is probably setting on reinforced concrete with steel bars in it. Have you thought of heat tape around the exit? Worked for me about 50 years ago in Ames I'm putting in a much smaller setup of 4 8000gal tanks to get the 30000 gal requirement for ISO. On our setup we will have a dry hyd, a pump and then a hyd., you should not need to draft much if the tan is near full. Good luck a tank like that should work out very well.
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    When my department runs mutual aid to rural areas we draft from a pond or creek. No storage tanks here, plus we don't have any problems with draught in my area, so that helps.

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    One thing to consider NeIowa is structural colapse if it is froze and you are drafting out of it. If the top is froze over solid and the water source is going down inside, it will need vented somehow or the side walls of the slurrystore could give out. Something as simple as an ice auger to punch a hole through the ice will work.
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    A town near me did this. Only the FD can only take so much water. A certain amount has to be left cause its designed to suppy a sprinkler system of a theater.
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    double post, delete
    Last edited by rskabroud; 12-31-2007 at 05:09 PM.

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    Took the boys up there for a drafting drill to test out the system. Lo & behold, couldn't do it. A 4 1/2" male hydrant steamer connection & 6" male hard suction don't connect very readily. The trustees had to order a double female. As soon as it arrives, we'll try again.[/QUOTE]

    You mean two rolls of duct tape couldn't seal it? Thanks for a good story about drilling with what resources are in your area!

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    I'm in your neighborhood, and would probably think about using it as a nine month operation unless you want to do a lot of maintenance. If you put a lot of expensive piping and valving in it, you'll have to exercise it and perform soem regular maintenance that is going to take up a lot of training nights.

    I'd set it up so it will work when it's not frozen, and go with that. After a year or so (Especially if we have another winter like this), you'll have a pretty good feeling of how the freeze / thaw will impact the tank, then you can make a decision on the cost effectiveness of valving and piping. You may find out that it would be cheaper to put in a dry hydrant?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    We have a historic mansion that has a 30,000 gallon cistern access to the cistern is limited during most of the year (parking area for functions & snow bound during the winter).
    In Maryland, A Hydrant is a Hydrant. Period. Dry or Wet, Drafting or not, is irrelevant. It is against the law to park within 25 feet of a Hydrant. So, if that mansion was here, they'd have to park elsewhere. And, they'd have to keep it clear of Snow.
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    From my understanding Harve, it is a private cistern that that they use to draft from when needed. Parking laws would not pertain to this.
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    An update. Solid reinforced concrete floor. Existing 11.5" hole thru the side where the former drain was.

    What we/I decided to do is install a suction pipe with an airlock, a butterfly valve, and a distribution manifold.

    Winter will pump air thru a tire valve style inlet into the distribution manifold to force water out of the suction pipe and form an air bubble in the suction line. Will have a pressure gauge on the manifold in order to check that air has not leaked out. Will have a drain in the bottom of the manifold. Manifold with have a variety of sizes of capped supply pipe (2x 2.5", 5", 6", 5"S).

    So opinons on whether this will work? Should be able to form an air bubble in the suction pipe, but will pumping in compressed air force water out of the manifold/suction pipe (without using a pig). I don't think so. Can we actually develop any air pressure in the system that will show on a gauge? I think equal to the head pressure of a 11' column of water. And can then slowly drain water out of the manifold while continuing to pump air in. Then close the 8" butterfly valve and "seal" the in the suction pipe.

    When winter comes the top and sides of the tank will freeze. Our 8" valve should be dry and there should be an air bubble in the suction line thru the "freeze zone" that extends from the tank walls inward. IF we ever actually use the water in the winter the "ice bridge" across the top of the tank may collapse which may damage/ruin the tank. Oh well. If we need the water for "the big one" we need to water.

    I found similar tank where reportedly (3rd hand) manure was drained in the winter. Ice did collapse. Where frozen to the tank walls actually pulled the
    porcelain enamel off of the steel sheets. Eventually then rust thru. Can see a series of vertical rust streaks in the outside enamel


    So poke holes in it.
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    Interesting problem.

    Is there any electric that can be used for heating tape or perhaps building a small enclosure around the outlet pipe and insulating/heating it?

    Perhaps simply enclosing the outlet pipe and using solar heating would help? I picture a little hut around the outlet pipe with a clear dome skylight?

    I am not sure that what you proposed would work. I really don't know if the air would hold and if it did how well that would insulate?

    I'm scratching my head..
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    I'm not sure the air thing will work. I can't see it forcing water up and over the bends in the piping. You will still end up with water in the manifold. Even after attempting to drain the manifold it will allow water back up and over the bends into the manifold again.

    I think you need something line this valve, although in a larger size. http://www.ljtechnologies.com/sj/pdf/96181-2A.pdf

    You have an 11 inch hole to cover. Perhaps you could install a 11 inch plate cover with three 4" holes in it with three of these 4" valves. Or, the company may make larger valves. This find was just 10 minutes on Google. Surely there are larger valves of this type.

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    That valve that mdtaylor posted works on pretty much the same principle as a dry barrel hydrant (which I thought you said earlier you already had) - so even though it'll look silly as hell - why don't you just bolt a hydrant to the cover plate & stick it through the 11" hole in the side of the tank then run the valve / intake portion back to the center of the tank (or as far as necessary to get beyond the expected freeze point).

    You could even get fancy and weld up about a 1/2" crescent shape on the upper half of the hydrant base so that it would put the valve higher than the hydrant to assist in draining the system once the valve is closed.

    Simple - Cheap - and low cost since you already have the materials on hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by N2DFire View Post
    That valve that mdtaylor posted works on pretty much the same principle as a dry barrel hydrant (which I thought you said earlier you already had) - so even though it'll look silly as hell - why don't you just bolt a hydrant to the cover plate & stick it through the 11" hole in the side of the tank then run the valve / intake portion back to the center of the tank (or as far as necessary to get beyond the expected freeze point).
    It might work, but some engineering would have to be done to accommodate the drain hole, which would end up inside the tank. Plug it most likely, because the hydrant will be mounted horizontally once you close it and disconnect the lines it will drain on its own.

    Just a matter of getting it fitted.

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    Have you thought of a heater supplied by a wind turbine generator? Just for the valve.

    http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w..._770399+769742

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    Default Thoughts and Questions

    My main question is....... what will keep the water from freezing to the side of the tank where your suction pipe is located? If it is steel and exposed to below freezing temperatures, I would think ice would form on the inside of the tank.

    Think of this as a dry hydrant. I think you are better off to go straight in and then turn down. Is there enough elevation to the drain hole to accomplish that? It wouldn't take much, just a couple of inches. With that senario, the air will push and hold the water out without any water residuals. This is a common practice on dry hydrants and works quite well. I do not believe you will be able to read pressure on and air guage as the amount of pressure will be so minimal. In your case with the water pushing down from above, if it doesn't hold air, water will leak out anything that isn't properly sealed.

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