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    Default High Rise hose size for attack

    Looking for ideas for attack hose lines for high rises. We currently use 1 3/4 but maybe looking to go to 2" or 2 1/2. I know there is a push to go to 2 1/2 due to fire loads. Most of our high rises are up to 15 floors. We are working on updating or High rise SOP. Any other info you can give on high rise tactics or SOP ideas would be great.

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    stick with 1 3/4 that other stuff is too heavy and you have a lot of work at a high rise already. have you had trouble in the past with not having enough hose for the fire? If its big enough you need 2 1/2 you will see when there is a lot of fire. I say if it concerns you then do some pre-planning and evaluate for the high rises you cover.

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    Go for the 2 1/2..Better more water than not enough.
    Be prepaired for someone here to tell you to check the "search button"
    Last edited by len1582; 10-11-2007 at 11:24 PM.

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    2 1/2 with a smoothbore - best possible set up.

    Do a forum search as this has been hashed out many times.

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    Agree, 2 1/2" with smoothbore (lower pressure requiered, less chance of clogging). Also, always hook up on floor below. Have a standpipe bag with the tools needed to adapt and overcome. Pipe wrench if wheel is missing or a restrictor in in place or cap is frozen on, adaptor if the threads dont match or are missing, hammer, wire brush if threads are corroated, etc....Any engine company should be able to hook up to a standpipe and get water......an excellant engine company is prepared to deal with the "curveballs". Think of every possible problem that can be encountered, and develop a plan to overcome it...and then practice it. The engine in my old firehouse scrounged up the parts and made a standpipe outlet in quarters to practice these situations.

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    We have 2 highrise packs on our engines. The first is 1 3/4", the second is 2 1/2".

    Generally, the first engine will grab the 1 3/4" hose and hook up 1 floor below the fire. If they think they are going to need more water, they will not hesitate to grab the 2 1/2".

    Another engine will grab the 2 1/2" highrise pack and wait in the lobby. If they are needed, they will connect 2 floors below the fire.

    Smoothbore is the only way to go for the nozzle on a highrise pack. The two main reasons are the low PSI required at the tip and the ability to clear the nozzle of debris that might be in the standpipe.
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    Ok, it's been years since I worked in a high-rise district, but here's my $.02. Both, the 1 3/4" will always surpass the deuce and a half for maneuverability, manpower needs etc. But, for those situations where you have distance and or flow needs, consider an "apartment lay". Have a high-rise pack with 1 3/4" and a bed section with ___ feet of 2 1/2" with a gated wye on the end. Have this stretched when needed (obviously more manpower-intensive) and then connect your 1 3/4 (s) to it. YMMV, but it's worked well in the places I've worked. These days limiting things to 2 1/2 alond as a default is self-defeating. I love 2 1/2s personally, but they're not always appropriate!

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    Another question...where to you store the hi-rise pack? (100' 1-3/4 w/ combo nozzle, 10' 2-1/2 w/gated wye, and wrenches) On our pumps most times it's stored on the front bumper. It ain't the ideal spot but it works if you need it. One of the new Lts wants to put it under the ladder. We tend to put alot more equipment on our machines than we probably need,(we have to be ready foranything, heh), but we definatly need the hi-rise pack handy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Agree, 2 1/2" with smoothbore (lower pressure requiered, less chance of clogging). Also, always hook up on floor below. Have a standpipe bag with the tools needed to adapt and overcome. Pipe wrench if wheel is missing or a restrictor in in place or cap is frozen on, adaptor if the threads dont match or are missing, hammer, wire brush if threads are corroated, etc....Any engine company should be able to hook up to a standpipe and get water......an excellant engine company is prepared to deal with the "curveballs". Think of every possible problem that can be encountered, and develop a plan to overcome it...and then practice it. The engine in my old firehouse scrounged up the parts and made a standpipe outlet in quarters to practice these situations.
    +300. Lol...

    To the poster who suggested 1 3/4 becasue 2-1/2 is too heavy...get in the gym and lift some weights, and do some cardio if you can't hack it. Then again..you probably think that 1-1/2 with a 100psi fog nozzle is the way to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunape View Post
    Another question...where to you store the hi-rise pack?
    We put ours in the back, driver's side on top of the apartment load.

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    1" booster.

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    With PRV's and such in the standpipes, your only rational choice would be a 2 1/2 inch.

    Look at the Meridan Palaza fire in Philly. The PRV's, even though a lot werent installed correctly, allowed only for around 65 psi for most handlines. A 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 isnt gonna flow **** at 65 psi.

    Take a 2 1/2 inch..... with a smoothbore and your doing good.

    It may take more manpower but your going to get more water out of it.

    Just my .2cents. But, I actually shouldnt have an opinon

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    Our high rise kits - 2 1/2" in 100 ft. bundles - are kept in an out-and-down pull out tray in our driver's side middle compartment (above the wheel well). Below the tray is a tool bag with the nozzle, wirebrush, spanners, etc. Simply grab the hose, the tool bag and forcible entry and you have what you need. The hose is bundled in a horseshoe shape so it can easily be carried on your shoulder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFmedicGUMP View Post
    stick with 1 3/4 that other stuff is too heavy and you have a lot of work at a high rise already. have you had trouble in the past with not having enough hose for the fire? If its big enough you need 2 1/2 you will see when there is a lot of fire. I say if it concerns you then do some pre-planning and evaluate for the high rises you cover.
    You won't see much fire if the wind is blowing into the windows and pushing fire down the hallways.

    2 1/2" Too heavy? As a fireman aren't use supposed to be physically fit and able to move a 2 1/2" line in on a fire? I suppose asking you to get in the gym is asking too much?

    How many standpipe jobs has your dept seen in the last 5 years?

    Use what the standpipes were designed to be used with...use what those who have the experience use...use what will give you the best chance at knocking down any fire you might enounter...use 2 1/2" hose with a smoothbore nozzle.

    FTM-PTB

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    It also boils down to what do you consider a "high rise" fire. Some departments, that would be a 4 or 5 story building.

    Others, may be upwards of 60, 70 or more stories with each having multiple zones and what not.

    But, most standpipes are designed to put out enough PSI for a 2.5 inch line with a smoothbore... not a FOG.

    Review the plans of the buildings in ur area or try to examine ones that are being built now. Examine PRV's(Pressure regulating valves) and examine the Meridan Plaza fire in philly. Now, after examining that fire, tell me 1 3/4 will do whatever you need done

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    Examine PRV's(Pressure regulating valves) and examine the Meridan Plaza fire in philly. Now, after examining that fire, tell me 1 3/4 will do whatever you need done

    You can point this out till you are blue in the face. There remains too many fire service "leaders" who feel that the lives lost or injured using inadequate streams, nozzles or a combination of both, is not learning material.

    The usual excuses many of these "leaders" trump out to their firefighters will be seen and heard here, on other message boards of this kind, and in firehouse kitchen tables:
    • We don't have "big city" staffing to man a 2" (at the very LEAST) or 2 1/2" hose
    • City 'x' uses 1 1/2" hose and they've never had anyone hurt or killed so it must be ok
    • The hose is too difficult to move and do searches at the same time.

    etc etc etc.
    I know. I know of one city around the Tidewater area using 1 3/4" Hi Rise hose packs with a 4 mile strip of hi rise hotels and the two tallest buildings in the state of Virginia
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    Depends on the size of your buildings and the type of construction as well as the built in fire protection (if they have any) as far as either 2" or 2.5".

    But switch to one of them and get away from the 1 3/4". And if you don't have a smooth bore, you need that as well.
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    First of all...standpipes were designed for use with a 2 1/2 line and a smoothbore nozzle. You do need 2 1/2 for the heavier fire load, for sure (esp. commercial highrises). But, due to the lower pressure found in the standpipe (for any number of a million reasons), you really need the 2 1/2 for its minimal friction loss. Read that as- you need 2 1/2 for not just commercial highrises, but residential as well!

    Second of all...for dept's with or without optimal manning...team up engine companies to put these 2 1/2 lines into operation! Especially the first one!

    After reading and understanding these two things, give me one good reason why you would use anything but a 2 1/2 and a smooth bore...
    Mark

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    Utter and complete newb question here.

    What about CAFS systems? Do they adjust what is needed?

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    2.5" smooth bore also. NFPA 14 permits a max of 175 psi discharge to the top floor for standpipes. This means that if you are running 200 ft of 1 3/4 down the corridor, and calculating friction loss and operating nozzle pressure, you will not be able to flow 200 gpm with a standard fog and difficulty achieving more than 200gpm with a smooth bore or low pressure fog if conditions warrant it. Figure a very common 20x30 size room = 600 sq ft/3 "recommend" 200 gpm. Also, if staffing is short or fatique sets in, pull off a tip and run a 50 ft section of 1 3/4 for overhaul, if things get rough again, you can go back to the big line. plus its nice to always have the big line as you never know what can happen, the sprinkler system down for repair or improper equipment/ pressure reducers installed or maintained. Just my input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8Truck View Post
    After reading and understanding these two things, give me one good reason why you would use anything but a 2 1/2 and a smooth bore...
    Simple...Not all buildings with standpipes are the same. For some, 2.5" is too much line.

    If all you have in your city is small hi-rises (15 story max), all CBC, compartmented, open exterior hallways, fully sprinklered, fire pump, there just isn't a need for 2.5". Its overkill.

    You don't need that size of line to mop up a fire held in check (or extinguished) by one, maybe two, sprinkler heads.

    A 2" with solid bore might be a bit much as well, but its the minimum I would go with and its what we use.
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    You don't need that size of line to mop up a fire held in check (or extinguished) by one, maybe two, sprinkler heads.

    Granted, most of the time no. But, as a firefighter, you should know that you SHOULD plan for worst case scenario's. Sprinklers arent working, sabatoged, you name it.


    Once again it goes back to who was the building designed. Most building's standpipes are designed for :ding ding: 2.5 inch hose. You can get buy with less, but its like putting class A foam on a class B fire... it will work but why risk it.

    But at least you said 2 inch and no 1 3/4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    Simple...Not all buildings with standpipes are the same. For some, 2.5" is too much line.

    If all you have in your city is small hi-rises (15 story max), all CBC, compartmented, open exterior hallways, fully sprinklered, fire pump, there just isn't a need for 2.5". Its overkill.

    You don't need that size of line to mop up a fire held in check (or extinguished) by one, maybe two, sprinkler heads.

    A 2" with solid bore might be a bit much as well, but its the minimum I would go with and its what we use.
    ...are the standpipes in those buildings designed for 2 inch hose?
    Mark

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    some newer buildings are designed to have a pressure of 175 psi coming from the standpipes... but like I said, that is just some NEWER buildings, not older ones.

    With a weedeater, the fuel is designed to have a special oil in it. You just dont go out and buy 10W30 car oil to put in it. It might work that time, it might work the next time or the time after that, but eventually it will have problems.

    When you got people's lives on the line, you dont want to have any problems with that standpipe.

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    I think the most influential factor affecting hose and nozzle choice for use with a standpipe is...what was the standpipe designed to be used with?

    One thing I don't get is this...what is such the big deal about using (stretching, advancing, operating) 2 1/2, regardless of whether it is being used with a standpipe or not??? I understand, for many obvious reasons that don't need to be explained, that it is definitely harder to use than 1 3/4 hose. Of course it is. But its not THAT MUCH harder. The way it is talked about on here though, you would think its some kind of insurmountable task.
    Mark

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