1. #1
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    Default New engines make station exhaust system obsolete?

    I am curious about the new engines and the "pollution controls" being compatible with the station exhaust systems such as the Neiderman System. Will the increased temperatures damage the Neiderman system or will we even need a system since the engine's pollute less?

    I am trying to find a contact at Neiderman but unsuccessful so far.
    Lt. Dan

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    Even with less pollution coming from the motor, it still comes into the station. It can still drive the CO levels up, your personnel are still breathing the exhaust without the exhaust system, and the exhaust still can be as harmful as it was before.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue View Post
    Even with less pollution coming from the motor, it still comes into the station. It can still drive the CO levels up, your personnel are still breathing the exhaust without the exhaust system, and the exhaust still can be as harmful as it was before.
    I tend to agree with you.

    The reason I asked was a manufacturer suggested going to a vertical exhaust on a new apparatus I am in process of specing. His reason was the higher exhaust temps might start fires etc. He also stated the new engines run so clean you don't need a exhaust system for the station. I kinda doubt that.

    However,a vertical exhaust would require us to modify the existing Nederman systems to work which is what I want to avoid.
    Lt. Dan

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    Regardless of diesel or gasoline, the emissions control systems designed to "clean" the exhaust stream typically depend on heat. You won't have proper burn off in your catalyst until well after the rig has left the building.

    Most engine's exhaust is dirtiest upon initial startup when cold. You'll still need something to collect it (Plymovent, Niederman, etc.) or to scrub it (Wards).

    That's my understanding anyway.
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    You won't have proper burn off in your catalyst until well after the rig has left the building.
    Wisdom shows itself

    Some of these "clean" emmisions engines are right up there with the worst smokers I have ever seen.

    Even if exhaust temps have gone up I doubt that current exhaust systems are no longer compatible.TL

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    Speaking of WARDS those are P.O.S. there is no total source capture so they're basicly useless in the fire station. Also when they get clogged they really bog the engine down until the engine just doesn't run anymore. Stick with the hoses.

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    We have a new EPA Cummins in our Squad ('07 KME)

    Yes it gets hotter...

    Yes you still need a station exhaust system...

    Yes it gets hotter...

    Our previous Neiderman system still works just fine...

    Yes it gets hotter...

    To explain some:

    We have curb side exhaust as standard. This gets hot... very hot. Be careful if you locate items such as electrical cords in the compartment over the exhaust. It's not because the compartment gets hot, but the electrical cord hanging out of the compartment near the emmisions from the tail pipe will get to melting point and fast. We have to take special precautions to protect our electrical cord reel as well as our Petrogen Torch hoses from being compromised due to the heat output.

    The exhaust system is still working well in the station.
    FTM-PTB DTRT

    Everything I state on here is to support and aid my fellow firefighters. Everything I post is my opinion only, and in no way should be taken as an official opinion of any Company, Department, or Municipality I represent... oh and this includes Pierce Mfg, as so their legal department has advised me; since they apparently also invented the right to control "Free Speech".

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    What NPFD said.

    Do you really want to have the smoke stack higher up, sending a plume of exhaust into a bigger area as it comes down? No thanks!

    Exhaust is exhaust. No matter what the conditions are, until an exhaust system is either 100% clean of any and all harmful particulate and gases, then we still need systems to remove them from the air in our stations.

    I think the best course of action might be to contact the manufacturer of the exhaust system and ask if the new motors / exhaust designs will require any special modifications to your system.

    Between the engineering departments of the truck manufacturer and the exhaust system, they should be able to make a solution that will work that doesn't include modifying the exhaust system for vertical pipes.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue View Post
    I think the best course of action might be to contact the manufacturer of the exhaust system and ask if the new motors / exhaust designs will require any special modifications to your system.
    Oh no, now you are just giving the industry an excuse to charge more for a "new and improved" exhaust system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSIaerialmanTIM View Post
    Oh no, now you are just giving the industry an excuse to charge more for a "new and improved" exhaust system.
    Don't they do that each year anyways?
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtDanCobbFD View Post
    He also stated the new engines run so clean you don't need a exhaust system for the station.
    Ask him if he would sit in a closed room for a couple of hours while breathing in the exhaust from a new motor.
    -------------------
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    As far as having to modify your Niederman,Plymo,Magna Etc,it's ALREADY happening.My advice:Contact your specific mfg for their advise based on your specfic need.Some systems will need modification,some won't.Glad we haven't put them in yet. T.C.

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    I can foresee the need for more heat-resistant drop hoses with the 07 engines. After that point, it both cools and runs through sheet metal.

    Even now the drop hoses on our Plymovents get warm enough you can feel them soften while the truck attached.

    Good point though. I don't know about Nederman, but I remember one of the manufacturer's of exhaust systems had a configuration for vertical exhaust removal.

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    Associated question. Vertical stacks workable (conviently/well) with the Plymovent etc exhaust systems? Working on chassis spec an all the brands are trying to point us towards a vert. stack vs horizontal. We have no station exhaust system but certainly will be part of new station.

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    We're questioning this as well - one of our rigs has a vertical stack and the solutions I have seen to integrate this to a piped exhaust extraction system, well - they're at best a cobbled together solution. Now I haven't seen everyone's system with vertical exhausts, but I do not like what I have seen. (An adapter for the vertical pipe that makes the opening a rectangular shape that fits into a slot the exhaust pipe slides through as you exit the bay...)

    We have a grant award that will pay for exhaust removal equipment. There is a bit of debate over the Ward type system and a tube system, though we initially applied for the Wards... I know what I like, but we don't live in our stations...
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    Yes, Plymovent makes a system for vertical exhausts.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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