+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 7 First 12345 ... Last
  1. #26
    It looks hot in there
    PureAdrenalin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    452

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Yup!! You forgot the tarps.
    Oh yeah...those things.
    'Adversus incendia excubias nocturnas vigilesque commentus est"

    www.vententersearch.com

  2. #27
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    63

    Default So many choices

    Let's see the average ranch is roughly 25 x 50, so about 1/2 the attic is off. Think we're gonna need a couple more companies. Otherwise me, myself and my chauffer have the following options.

    1. My fav. Open the access(if possible, it is often in a closet) or pull the ceiling (after putting down tarps of course ) knock the snot out of it, then vent.

    2. The 1950's style enclosed area fog stream.

    3. And finally one that hasn't been brought up & I've never had to do. Let it take the roof off then overhaul. I've read this is procedure somewhere on homes with wood shingle roofs.

    I'm going with option 1 with a "run of the mill" ranch attic fire as described.

    I think pretty much everyone here is right. Whatever works for ya is good enough. However, if this is the current lightweight construction with the gusset plates droppin on your head as you pop the ceiling then your options certainly become fewer. And if the roof starts to creak while you're under it, time to find a safe place.

    Remember, when the fire goes out, your troubles go away.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-RTB

    Stay low, keep pushing in, and stay safe.

  3. #28
    Forum Member
    JJensenJr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Galveston, TX
    Posts
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Hit it from below, move up a step, hit it again, move up a step, etc. It's not going to be that much fire.

    And a lot more effective/safe/efficient than trying to chainsaw openings above your head.
    Yes! Why tear up more than you have to? You're going to have to get up there eventually, why not put the fire out on your way?

  4. #29
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    Maybe you didn't read my original post closely, and let me make it clearer. Upon arrival, it is clear that the area immediately above the pull down stairs is on fire. That would include the rafters, floor etc. Sure, a bounce of the stream off of the underside of the roof might knock down some of the fire, but if the contents on the floor around the pull down stairs are on fire, the nozzle man will have to either "go through the fire" or hold the nozzle over his/her head while ascending the ladder/stairs. Seems to me and the other posters here that pulling down the ceiling downstream from the fire and attacking it from there is the way to go.
    You mean the floor in the attic space, correct??

    I am not saying that pulling ceiling is not a good tactic. It certainly is if you have the manpower on the scene quickly enough to get it accomplished before burning the roof off.

    However, if I am correct in my assumption above, it is also quite easy to knock fire in the immediate area of the access down from the ground and then yes, put a guy a couple of rungs up on the ladder and operate the nozzle over his head in whatever direction is necessary.

    It is really no different than putting fire out as you go in any other scenario.

    You have bedrooms on fire that all lead off of the hall. You don't say you can't get to the back bedroom because the nozzleman would have to go through the fire. The team puts it out as they go and works there way to the back.

    Same thing.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  5. #30
    Forum Member
    edge1317's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    379

    Default

    My current FD has a cross of a piercing nozzle and a cellar/brusman's(sp) nozzle. They say they use it for attic fires, never seen it done may have its advantages, but I'm leaning more towards pulling the ceiling.

  6. #31
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    735

    Default

    Im not sure that a typical attic vent is large enough to vent the area that is burning. I would cut the roof then make a push thru the already existing access point. Using an indirect attack basically gives you an 1 3/4 sprinkler. Knock it down, then (for the faint of heart, stop reading now) mop up with a booster line which is far more manageable and quite capable of wetting down any hot spots. Think about hydrolic venting thru the hole you cut.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

  7. #32
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Why are we even thinking of putting FFs on a roof that has 1) self vented and 2) has a fire that is directly attacking the supporting roof structure?

    Just curious...
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  8. #33
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,686

    Default

    fire is not through the roof, but burning in a 10 X 20 foot area immediately around the pull down stair/hole in ceiling.
    a roof that has 1) self vented
    Where is the self venting part coming from?



    Maybe it's just my area, but a lot less homes are being built with gable vents. More and more are going to ridge vents.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #34
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Where is the self venting part coming from?



    Maybe it's just my area, but a lot less homes are being built with gable vents. More and more are going to ridge vents.
    Opps...Guess I need another cup of Joe.

    Lets go with #2 then.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  10. #35
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Jacksonville Fl
    Posts
    507

    Default

    Are you worried about collapse? Why would you go underneath it then?

  11. #36
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LeatherHed4Life View Post
    Are you worried about collapse? Why would you go underneath it then?
    Didn't say that. Was just asking a question. Thought it strange with all the talk of early truss failure thats gone on here and other places in the past.

    For what its worth, we either punch a hole in the ceiling directly inside an exterior door and hit from there, or take out the gable(s) and attack from there. Putting crews on the roof would be way down the list of considerations.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  12. #37
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    492

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Where is the self venting part coming from?



    Maybe it's just my area, but a lot less homes are being built with gable vents. More and more are going to ridge vents.
    Bones I am seeing the same thing in our area as far as the Ridge vents. The local housing authority had a roofing company make the cuts and install ridge vents when they re-roofed the units. I do not know if this is a new code the government is using, or if it was a recommendation of the roofing company or what. They still kept the gable vents in place.

    T.J.

  13. #38
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,686

    Default

    Thought it strange with all the talk of early truss failure thats gone on here and other places in the past.
    Thankfully, truss construction is not common in my area either!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #39
    Forum Member
    Hazmat91180's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    South Eastern WI
    Posts
    108

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Most homes of that styler have vents in the peak of the gable end of the house. Pull the vent and you are in. You can even do it on both ends. And heck, why not cut a whole through the gable end, does less damage than poking a hole in the roof. Of course part of this attack should also include putting tarps over the personal belongings below the fire site. Didn't see that mentioned anywhere. After all, it is about preservation of property, water damage is just as bad as fire damage, it still junk.
    BEAT ME TO IT! I was going to suggest finding the seat of the fire, and then pull ceiling directly above the seat while dropping the ceiling on the tarps that have already been laid. Reason being, anyway you get to the attic you are going to shoot water, which will ruin the drywall, which will have to come down anyway. So there really is no property conservation by NOT opening the ceiling. That IS of course if you doing at the seat of the fire. And I 100% agree with using a cellar nozzle right through the drywall. They shoot a lot of water.

  15. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    45

    Default Keep it safe

    First thing: NO ONE, NO ONE, NO ONE GOES INTO THE ATTIC SPACE with pull down stairs, PERIOD! Way too dangerous to be in an area with little egress. Secondly some comments were made about lightweight truss NOT being in their area. Absolutely not true. This stuff is everywhere! If you are not sure if you have lightweight truss roofs then NO ONE, NO ONE goes on the roof. Same as if you knew you did have a truss roof. "Don't be afraid to go on the roof" ? I sure as hell would be if I didn't know what I had supporting me. I don't care if its a one story ranch. I do have a problem about falling into fire below me...maybe its me I don't know. We need to clear things up. If the attic space is an occupied area, the means of egress has to be a good one. This means a solid, regular staircase into the area. If the pulldown stairs exist, chances are we are talking about an unoccupied storage area. In this case we are NOT going to use pull down stairs we are going to augment them with a portable ladder. Again, if we do not have a conventional staircase...do not put anyone up into the void whether it be one firefighter or two. If something were to happen you are NOT getting out of there in a hurry and your dead! Probably the best way to attack an attic fire is 1 of 2 ways. First, determine what access into the attic you have and make your decisions based upon what we just discussed. As stated, a nailed down floor in the attic is not goinjg to give us quick access into the fire area, so we would have to look at other alternatives. However, if the floor to the attic is not there and only sheetrock from the ceiling below is covering the joists, this makes it a lot easier. First, stretch the line directly under the fire area remembering NOT to go into the room too deep, basically try to stay at the door till we can open up and see what we really have above our heads. Secondly and immediately, ventilate the floor below the attic completely, taking all the windows out, yes all! especially on an upper floor. We accomplish 2 things this way. The first is that when we begin to open up the attic from below conditions will deteriorate quickly and become miserable. Secondly we provoide ourselves with a means of egress at every window, hopefully with a portable ladder placed at the sill. Remember we are venting horizontally based upon the fact that we cannot send anyone onto the roof to vent vertically. Once we have water at the nozzle, begin opening the ceiling. Keep pulling the ceiling without allowing the line to be opened up unless absolutely necessary. The reason why we wait is that as we open the ceiling into the attic, conditions will be tolerable for us to work in. The minute the line opens up then we bring all the heat and smoke down on us. So, advance into the room, pulling the ceiling as far as we can safely with the engine crew not far behind, usually waiting at the door. Once we have opened enough where the fire is beginiing to intensify, then retreat to the doorway and let the engine team do their job. Straight stream or smooth bore into the attic space with alot of water. Once it darkens down allow the truck guys to go back in to continue to open up until all the ceiling is down and then the line can wash everything down. These tactics are based upon the fact that we should't or couldn't put guys up on the roof. Another method that we can try is to cut a vent hole into the gable end of the attic and as long as the attic is unoccupied we can introduce a stream into that attic space to extinguish the main body of fire. This practise goes against everything that we were taught about getting in and putting fire out but in this case we know there is no life hazard and as long as the stairs are left closed fire cannot be pushed throughout the house by the exterior stream. In my opinion the days of putting guys on peaked roof to vertically vent are over! You can argue this point if you like but it is way too dangerous to allow members to operate above a fire without knowing what the roof system is comprised of as stated earlier. If you want more info go to www.firetrainingresources.net and go to articles called the "Back Step". Remember its only a damn building. If there is no life hazard slow down and realize the Risk vs. Reward philosophy. No firefighter is worth a building
    Last edited by Fireground1; 10-21-2007 at 07:53 PM.

  16. #41
    Forum Member
    Res343cue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Your 1st due.
    Posts
    1,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    Long winded post
    What ever happened to the "KISS" principal and just getting the job done?

    Your "scenario" causes unneeded damage to the structure. An attic fire is just that, an attic fire. There's no need to go smash out all the windows in the building on the floor below the fire. It's not going to accomplish any of the "venthilation" you claim.

    It's already in the highest point possible, so it would make sense to vent directly above the fire, or horizontally at the same "level" the fire is at. In this case, in the ends of the house where you'd typically find the attic vents.

    An 1 3/4 for your typical home, or a 2.5 if it's a large roof, stretched dry to the location will take care of the fire just fine. Vent the ends of the roof, or cut a vent hole in the roof as the crew starts their attack. It doesn't have to be from below, because if there isn't a heavy fire load there is no reason they can't darken it down as they go up and then finish it off kneeling in the attic.

    By the time you do everything you say, you're just going to burn the roof off the structure!
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

  17. #42
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default Excellent summarization!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue
    Fireground1 = a long-winded post.
    That was awesome. I couldn't even read all of that, but I quickly realized that guy has got to be a chief!!
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  18. #43
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    A few thoughts...

    The original poster had some questions and seemed to be looking for some answers. Some of the answers arent too friendly or helpful.

    Something I will always remember, I learned on here but I cannot remember who said it. The point was made that with an attic fire, where the attic is "floored" with plywood or planking, the easiest access from below when pulling ceiling is a few feet in from the exterior walls because you won't typically find flooring around the perimeter of an attic (no head room).

    I dont recall seeing anyone mention the danger of a smoke explosion when pulling ceiling from a well involved attic fire that is poorly ventilated from above. I have heard stories of how the introduction of air from pulling ceiling causes a violent explosion because the roof and or gable enda arent opened. Its a point worth remembering.

    I agree pulling ceiling is the fastest way into most of these types of fires. As always, there isnt one specific answer though. Remember the construction, fire behavior and equipment you have.

  19. #44
    Forum Member
    stretch13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    79

    Default

    If a room is on fire, you go through the door, and put the fire out. The attic stairs is just that- an access point.
    If the fire is not vented, we would go to the roof and vent it, and the engine crew would enter the attic via the stairs, and ...put the fire out.
    Bill Geyer
    Engine 27
    Memphis F.D.

  20. #45
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    45

    Default long winded???

    I try not to go to these posts too often just for these reasons. Res343cue seems to think that all the preliminary tactics that was mentioned in my post is not necessary. See I didn't make these tactics up FDNY did, and I was fortunate to gain an incredible amount of knowledge from my career with that department. What bothers me the most is that guys like that someday will be in a position to make critical decisions and it is obvious that he has all the answers. My response was not long winded but rather what I wanted to accomplish was to explain how to fight these fires without getting anyone hurt or killed. I will repeat. We need to provide horizontal ventilation if vertical ventilation by cutting the roof is either unsafe or not possible. In this day and age, putting members on a peaked roof is a very dangerous and unsafe operation. If we are going to ventilate horizontally, we need to provide the area with an abundance of fresh air for us to operate safely in. Remember these windows may be our only way out if things go bad. Taking windows at this stage in the fire is being proactive, and should be considered an SOP for these types of fires. These posts are great for people that want to learn. The problem with them is that not all the information or comments bear any merit. Be careful how some people respond, I don't have all the answers but obviously some think they do and will get other members hurt or killed. Oh and by the way Im not chief, just a retired lieutenant from FDNY..Good luck

  21. #46
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    In this day and age, putting members on a peaked roof is a very dangerous and unsafe operation.
    It is an operation we do here every day without too much trouble.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  22. #47
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    45

    Default on the roof??

    good luck bro hope I never have to say I told ya so

  23. #48
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    good luck bro hope I never have to say I told ya so
    Don't worry, I'm on the engine!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  24. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    45

    Default got me

    great answer ya just dont want me dropping down on ya

  25. #50
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,578

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Don't worry, I'm on the engine!
    Ah ha! I knew there was a reason I liked you. Sorry it took this long to figure out!
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 7 First 12345 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. SOP's for Volunteer FD
    By rumlfire in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-01-2006, 10:35 PM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 11-17-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-18-2005, 06:57 PM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 11-14-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-16-2005, 09:15 PM
  4. World Of Fire Report: 11-01-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-04-2005, 10:51 PM
  5. World Of Fire Report: 02-27-04
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-29-2004, 04:53 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register