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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nine3Probie View Post
    In this scenario...Is there a gable vent that could be opened up and the fire attacked from the side of the house, rather than through the interior?

    Depending on the size of the house and fire location in relation to the gable end and obstacles in the way...pull the vent, straight stream to darken down the fire, crew up an attic ladder or pulling the ceiling for overhaul.

    At least...it could be an option.
    My thoughts exactly. Most homes of that styler have vents in the peak of the gable end of the house. Pull the vent and you are in. You can even do it on both ends. And heck, why not cut a whole through the gable end, does less damage than poking a hole in the roof. Of course part of this attack should also include putting tarps over the personal belongings below the fire site. Didn't see that mentioned anywhere. After all, it is about preservation of property, water damage is just as bad as fire damage, it still junk.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PureAdrenalin View Post
    1. Pull line
    2. Charge Line
    3. Vent above fire
    4. Pull ceiling
    5. Extinguish.
    6. Overhaul

    Does it really get harder than this? This is a simple scenario, where we need to do the same things we do at all fires.
    Yup!! You forgot the tarps.

  3. #23
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    Open from above and attack from below. No reason to cram guys into what is probably a small attic space that traps them if things go wrong or it flashes on them.

  4. #24
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    I gotta agree with Bones and Memphis --- dont overthink this one -- ease the access door open -- give it a shot -- either bounce it off the ceiling -- or feed the hose up ahead of you -- set your attic ladder up -- ease up in the hole and finish it off -- try and get some salvage covers / move furniture - before you overhaul it. Beware celluose insulation.

  5. #25
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Open up the pull down stairs just enough to open up the nozzle using a fog pattern. Shouldn't have to use much water at all if you leave the attic as intact as possible. After the fire is extinguished and under control open up the vent on the gable end furthest from the pull down stairs. Close up all windows and use positive pressure to ventilate. Always use your own ladders instead of what is provided and/or in place.

  6. #26
    It looks hot in there PureAdrenalin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Yup!! You forgot the tarps.
    Oh yeah...those things.
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  7. #27
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    Default So many choices

    Let's see the average ranch is roughly 25 x 50, so about 1/2 the attic is off. Think we're gonna need a couple more companies. Otherwise me, myself and my chauffer have the following options.

    1. My fav. Open the access(if possible, it is often in a closet) or pull the ceiling (after putting down tarps of course ) knock the snot out of it, then vent.

    2. The 1950's style enclosed area fog stream.

    3. And finally one that hasn't been brought up & I've never had to do. Let it take the roof off then overhaul. I've read this is procedure somewhere on homes with wood shingle roofs.

    I'm going with option 1 with a "run of the mill" ranch attic fire as described.

    I think pretty much everyone here is right. Whatever works for ya is good enough. However, if this is the current lightweight construction with the gusset plates droppin on your head as you pop the ceiling then your options certainly become fewer. And if the roof starts to creak while you're under it, time to find a safe place.

    Remember, when the fire goes out, your troubles go away.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Hit it from below, move up a step, hit it again, move up a step, etc. It's not going to be that much fire.

    And a lot more effective/safe/efficient than trying to chainsaw openings above your head.
    Yes! Why tear up more than you have to? You're going to have to get up there eventually, why not put the fire out on your way?

  9. #29
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    Maybe you didn't read my original post closely, and let me make it clearer. Upon arrival, it is clear that the area immediately above the pull down stairs is on fire. That would include the rafters, floor etc. Sure, a bounce of the stream off of the underside of the roof might knock down some of the fire, but if the contents on the floor around the pull down stairs are on fire, the nozzle man will have to either "go through the fire" or hold the nozzle over his/her head while ascending the ladder/stairs. Seems to me and the other posters here that pulling down the ceiling downstream from the fire and attacking it from there is the way to go.
    You mean the floor in the attic space, correct??

    I am not saying that pulling ceiling is not a good tactic. It certainly is if you have the manpower on the scene quickly enough to get it accomplished before burning the roof off.

    However, if I am correct in my assumption above, it is also quite easy to knock fire in the immediate area of the access down from the ground and then yes, put a guy a couple of rungs up on the ladder and operate the nozzle over his head in whatever direction is necessary.

    It is really no different than putting fire out as you go in any other scenario.

    You have bedrooms on fire that all lead off of the hall. You don't say you can't get to the back bedroom because the nozzleman would have to go through the fire. The team puts it out as they go and works there way to the back.

    Same thing.
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  10. #30
    Forum Member edge1317's Avatar
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    My current FD has a cross of a piercing nozzle and a cellar/brusman's(sp) nozzle. They say they use it for attic fires, never seen it done may have its advantages, but I'm leaning more towards pulling the ceiling.

  11. #31
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    Im not sure that a typical attic vent is large enough to vent the area that is burning. I would cut the roof then make a push thru the already existing access point. Using an indirect attack basically gives you an 1 3/4 sprinkler. Knock it down, then (for the faint of heart, stop reading now) mop up with a booster line which is far more manageable and quite capable of wetting down any hot spots. Think about hydrolic venting thru the hole you cut.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

  12. #32
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Why are we even thinking of putting FFs on a roof that has 1) self vented and 2) has a fire that is directly attacking the supporting roof structure?

    Just curious...
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  13. #33
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    fire is not through the roof, but burning in a 10 X 20 foot area immediately around the pull down stair/hole in ceiling.
    a roof that has 1) self vented
    Where is the self venting part coming from?



    Maybe it's just my area, but a lot less homes are being built with gable vents. More and more are going to ridge vents.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Where is the self venting part coming from?



    Maybe it's just my area, but a lot less homes are being built with gable vents. More and more are going to ridge vents.
    Opps...Guess I need another cup of Joe.

    Lets go with #2 then.
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  15. #35
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    Are you worried about collapse? Why would you go underneath it then?

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeatherHed4Life View Post
    Are you worried about collapse? Why would you go underneath it then?
    Didn't say that. Was just asking a question. Thought it strange with all the talk of early truss failure thats gone on here and other places in the past.

    For what its worth, we either punch a hole in the ceiling directly inside an exterior door and hit from there, or take out the gable(s) and attack from there. Putting crews on the roof would be way down the list of considerations.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Where is the self venting part coming from?



    Maybe it's just my area, but a lot less homes are being built with gable vents. More and more are going to ridge vents.
    Bones I am seeing the same thing in our area as far as the Ridge vents. The local housing authority had a roofing company make the cuts and install ridge vents when they re-roofed the units. I do not know if this is a new code the government is using, or if it was a recommendation of the roofing company or what. They still kept the gable vents in place.

    T.J.

  18. #38
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Thought it strange with all the talk of early truss failure thats gone on here and other places in the past.
    Thankfully, truss construction is not common in my area either!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Most homes of that styler have vents in the peak of the gable end of the house. Pull the vent and you are in. You can even do it on both ends. And heck, why not cut a whole through the gable end, does less damage than poking a hole in the roof. Of course part of this attack should also include putting tarps over the personal belongings below the fire site. Didn't see that mentioned anywhere. After all, it is about preservation of property, water damage is just as bad as fire damage, it still junk.
    BEAT ME TO IT! I was going to suggest finding the seat of the fire, and then pull ceiling directly above the seat while dropping the ceiling on the tarps that have already been laid. Reason being, anyway you get to the attic you are going to shoot water, which will ruin the drywall, which will have to come down anyway. So there really is no property conservation by NOT opening the ceiling. That IS of course if you doing at the seat of the fire. And I 100% agree with using a cellar nozzle right through the drywall. They shoot a lot of water.

  20. #40
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    Default Keep it safe

    First thing: NO ONE, NO ONE, NO ONE GOES INTO THE ATTIC SPACE with pull down stairs, PERIOD! Way too dangerous to be in an area with little egress. Secondly some comments were made about lightweight truss NOT being in their area. Absolutely not true. This stuff is everywhere! If you are not sure if you have lightweight truss roofs then NO ONE, NO ONE goes on the roof. Same as if you knew you did have a truss roof. "Don't be afraid to go on the roof" ? I sure as hell would be if I didn't know what I had supporting me. I don't care if its a one story ranch. I do have a problem about falling into fire below me...maybe its me I don't know. We need to clear things up. If the attic space is an occupied area, the means of egress has to be a good one. This means a solid, regular staircase into the area. If the pulldown stairs exist, chances are we are talking about an unoccupied storage area. In this case we are NOT going to use pull down stairs we are going to augment them with a portable ladder. Again, if we do not have a conventional staircase...do not put anyone up into the void whether it be one firefighter or two. If something were to happen you are NOT getting out of there in a hurry and your dead! Probably the best way to attack an attic fire is 1 of 2 ways. First, determine what access into the attic you have and make your decisions based upon what we just discussed. As stated, a nailed down floor in the attic is not goinjg to give us quick access into the fire area, so we would have to look at other alternatives. However, if the floor to the attic is not there and only sheetrock from the ceiling below is covering the joists, this makes it a lot easier. First, stretch the line directly under the fire area remembering NOT to go into the room too deep, basically try to stay at the door till we can open up and see what we really have above our heads. Secondly and immediately, ventilate the floor below the attic completely, taking all the windows out, yes all! especially on an upper floor. We accomplish 2 things this way. The first is that when we begin to open up the attic from below conditions will deteriorate quickly and become miserable. Secondly we provoide ourselves with a means of egress at every window, hopefully with a portable ladder placed at the sill. Remember we are venting horizontally based upon the fact that we cannot send anyone onto the roof to vent vertically. Once we have water at the nozzle, begin opening the ceiling. Keep pulling the ceiling without allowing the line to be opened up unless absolutely necessary. The reason why we wait is that as we open the ceiling into the attic, conditions will be tolerable for us to work in. The minute the line opens up then we bring all the heat and smoke down on us. So, advance into the room, pulling the ceiling as far as we can safely with the engine crew not far behind, usually waiting at the door. Once we have opened enough where the fire is beginiing to intensify, then retreat to the doorway and let the engine team do their job. Straight stream or smooth bore into the attic space with alot of water. Once it darkens down allow the truck guys to go back in to continue to open up until all the ceiling is down and then the line can wash everything down. These tactics are based upon the fact that we should't or couldn't put guys up on the roof. Another method that we can try is to cut a vent hole into the gable end of the attic and as long as the attic is unoccupied we can introduce a stream into that attic space to extinguish the main body of fire. This practise goes against everything that we were taught about getting in and putting fire out but in this case we know there is no life hazard and as long as the stairs are left closed fire cannot be pushed throughout the house by the exterior stream. In my opinion the days of putting guys on peaked roof to vertically vent are over! You can argue this point if you like but it is way too dangerous to allow members to operate above a fire without knowing what the roof system is comprised of as stated earlier. If you want more info go to www.firetrainingresources.net and go to articles called the "Back Step". Remember its only a damn building. If there is no life hazard slow down and realize the Risk vs. Reward philosophy. No firefighter is worth a building
    Last edited by Fireground1; 10-21-2007 at 07:53 PM.

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