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  1. #41
    Forum Member Res343cue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    Long winded post
    What ever happened to the "KISS" principal and just getting the job done?

    Your "scenario" causes unneeded damage to the structure. An attic fire is just that, an attic fire. There's no need to go smash out all the windows in the building on the floor below the fire. It's not going to accomplish any of the "venthilation" you claim.

    It's already in the highest point possible, so it would make sense to vent directly above the fire, or horizontally at the same "level" the fire is at. In this case, in the ends of the house where you'd typically find the attic vents.

    An 1 3/4 for your typical home, or a 2.5 if it's a large roof, stretched dry to the location will take care of the fire just fine. Vent the ends of the roof, or cut a vent hole in the roof as the crew starts their attack. It doesn't have to be from below, because if there isn't a heavy fire load there is no reason they can't darken it down as they go up and then finish it off kneeling in the attic.

    By the time you do everything you say, you're just going to burn the roof off the structure!
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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  2. #42
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Default Excellent summarization!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue
    Fireground1 = a long-winded post.
    That was awesome. I couldn't even read all of that, but I quickly realized that guy has got to be a chief!!
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  3. #43
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    A few thoughts...

    The original poster had some questions and seemed to be looking for some answers. Some of the answers arent too friendly or helpful.

    Something I will always remember, I learned on here but I cannot remember who said it. The point was made that with an attic fire, where the attic is "floored" with plywood or planking, the easiest access from below when pulling ceiling is a few feet in from the exterior walls because you won't typically find flooring around the perimeter of an attic (no head room).

    I dont recall seeing anyone mention the danger of a smoke explosion when pulling ceiling from a well involved attic fire that is poorly ventilated from above. I have heard stories of how the introduction of air from pulling ceiling causes a violent explosion because the roof and or gable enda arent opened. Its a point worth remembering.

    I agree pulling ceiling is the fastest way into most of these types of fires. As always, there isnt one specific answer though. Remember the construction, fire behavior and equipment you have.

  4. #44
    Forum Member stretch13's Avatar
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    If a room is on fire, you go through the door, and put the fire out. The attic stairs is just that- an access point.
    If the fire is not vented, we would go to the roof and vent it, and the engine crew would enter the attic via the stairs, and ...put the fire out.
    Bill Geyer
    Engine 27
    Memphis F.D.

  5. #45
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    Default long winded???

    I try not to go to these posts too often just for these reasons. Res343cue seems to think that all the preliminary tactics that was mentioned in my post is not necessary. See I didn't make these tactics up FDNY did, and I was fortunate to gain an incredible amount of knowledge from my career with that department. What bothers me the most is that guys like that someday will be in a position to make critical decisions and it is obvious that he has all the answers. My response was not long winded but rather what I wanted to accomplish was to explain how to fight these fires without getting anyone hurt or killed. I will repeat. We need to provide horizontal ventilation if vertical ventilation by cutting the roof is either unsafe or not possible. In this day and age, putting members on a peaked roof is a very dangerous and unsafe operation. If we are going to ventilate horizontally, we need to provide the area with an abundance of fresh air for us to operate safely in. Remember these windows may be our only way out if things go bad. Taking windows at this stage in the fire is being proactive, and should be considered an SOP for these types of fires. These posts are great for people that want to learn. The problem with them is that not all the information or comments bear any merit. Be careful how some people respond, I don't have all the answers but obviously some think they do and will get other members hurt or killed. Oh and by the way Im not chief, just a retired lieutenant from FDNY..Good luck

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    In this day and age, putting members on a peaked roof is a very dangerous and unsafe operation.
    It is an operation we do here every day without too much trouble.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  7. #47
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    Default on the roof??

    good luck bro hope I never have to say I told ya so

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    good luck bro hope I never have to say I told ya so
    Don't worry, I'm on the engine!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  9. #49
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    Default got me

    great answer ya just dont want me dropping down on ya

  10. #50
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Don't worry, I'm on the engine!
    Ah ha! I knew there was a reason I liked you. Sorry it took this long to figure out!
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    great answer ya just dont want me dropping down on ya
    I never thought of that.....maybe we shouldn't go to the roof..........
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Ah ha! I knew there was a reason I liked you. Sorry it took this long to figure out!
    REAL firemen should stick together!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  13. #53
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Secondly some comments were made about lightweight truss NOT being in their area. Absolutely not true. This stuff is everywhere! If you are not sure if you have lightweight truss roofs
    If your who I think you are...you've been to my area and trained us. Truss roofs are very rare in residential structures here. Actually, I am amazed at how rarely it's used on the new construction going on.

    Good points though.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #54
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    Default yeah you know who I am

    Brother don't be complacent...you have lightweight all over your area . Ill force you to buy me a beer to prove it to you

  15. #55
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    Lightweight truss construction does pose a greater risk to firefighters. That being said, vertical ventilation techniques are commonly utilized on truss construction by my department as well as most surrounding departments . Like all other aspects of firefighting, itís a calculated risk based on the situation at hand and the fire conditions. There are times when we donít send crews to the roof due to safety concerns, but I donít agree with Fireground1ís blanket statements regarding lightweight truss construction. We have safely ventilated truss roofs on many occasions; the key is to read the conditions and to get up and down quickly.

    Additionally, we are not quick to assume that a rescue situation doesnít exist. It is often not apparent as to whether all building occupants are safe and accounted for. In this case, a search of the structure is imperative. Vertical ventilation not only improves visibility and reduces the chance of flashover for firefighters; it also greatly improves a victimís chances for survival.

    As far as horizontal ventilation, we use positive pressure techniques which do not require all windows to be opened. In fact, too many openings will actually hinder positive pressureís effectiveness.

  16. #56
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    Ill force you to buy me a beer to prove it to you
    Deal. Been too long!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #57
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    just call me and Im there you know how to get me

  18. #58
    It looks hot in there PureAdrenalin's Avatar
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    Just going to go ahead and re-post my original thoughts as it seems that nobody paid much attention to it.

    1. Pull line
    2. Charge Line
    3. Vent above fire
    4. Pull ceiling
    5. Extinguish.
    6. Overhaul

    Does it really get harder than this? This is a simple scenario, where we need to do the same things we do at all fires.


    Seriously guys and gals...why are you overcomplicating things here. No need to cut the walls out, or any other crazy crap. Hook the snot out of it, water it down, go home. Done. I can't simplify it any more than that.
    'Adversus incendia excubias nocturnas vigilesque commentus est"

    www.vententersearch.com

  19. #59
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    Default now ill reiterate

    stay off the roof...its not necessary

  20. #60
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    Hey everyone,

    I have to say I disagree 100% with Fireground, stay off the roof, come on. Know your response district, hell know the town and city you work in, then you will have a better idea of where the truss roofs are, never say never.I work in a old industrial city, about 60 miles north of NYC, balloon frames, thre deckers, 10' apart, and with the exception of newer construction you will be ontop of dimensional lumber, there are exceptions always are, but never say never, know your response district.Don't enter the attic, how will you put the fire out, if you are suggesting letting it burn through the roof then hitting it with a ladder pipe, kiss the roof, attic and the floor below off, not to mention the EXCESSIVE water dammage caused by a large caliber stream. Sorry here folks, I have to ramble. Nothing wrong with augmenting the pull down attic stairs with a ladder, time and manpower dependent, use th reach of your stream, whipping it violently into the involved attic space, remember, you should be aporating your nozzel at least an arms length out in front of your body, heck, with and attic I may cheat a bit, push the pipe up and give it a whip, while be protected outside the space. I know, lots of run on sentences. Regular walk up stairs, again, another great place for refuge, stay low, use the reach of your line and do not crowd the stairs. Attack the fire, be oriented to where you are and stay calm. Pulling ceilings is an option but not my initial tactic. OK, enough, time for more coffee. Peace to all

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