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  1. #61
    It looks hot in there PureAdrenalin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy361 View Post
    Hey everyone,

    I have to say I disagree 100% with Fireground, stay off the roof, come on. Know your response district, hell know the town and city you work in, then you will have a better idea of where the truss roofs are
    an Idea sure, but you never know where they are. But, that's why they make roof ladders.
    Don't enter the attic, how will you put the fire out, if you are suggesting letting it burn through the roof then hitting it with a ladder pipe, kiss the roof, attic and the floor below off, not to mention the EXCESSIVE water dammage caused by a large caliber stream.
    By opening up the ceiling, and extinguishing it.
    Nothing wrong with augmenting the pull down attic stairs with a ladder, time and manpower dependent
    How heavy is an attic ladder? You should be able to carry it while stretching a line.
    Pulling ceilings is an option but not my initial tactic.
    Why not?
    'Adversus incendia excubias nocturnas vigilesque commentus est"

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  2. #62
    makes good girls go bad BLSboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PureAdrenalin View Post
    an Idea sure, but you never know where they are. But, that's why they make roof ladders.
    When a truss roof collapses, they ALL come down. What good is that roof ladder gonna do ya then?
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  3. #63
    Forum Member axemanst3's Avatar
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    Default go back a few posts....

    number one: not going on the roof to vent is just.... it's not even realistic

    number two: as an officer it's my call to decide when the roof is safe or not.

    number three: horizontal venting is done on the same level as the fire, not below....

    way to complex here....

    IF IT IS SAFE, get on the roof and vent

    If there is no access to the attic cut a hole inside, if there is, pull down the stairs, throw an attic ladder, and put out the fire
    JOHN 15:13

    ISAIAH 43:2



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    Marion Volunteer Fire Department

  4. #64
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    There are many ways to skin a cat and many ideas here will work on attic fires. But not one single tactic will work on every fire efficiently.

    What if the fire is a small smoldering fire with lots of heavy smoke? Sticking the distributor nozzle up will ruin all the ceiling in the top floor, when possibly the TIC would have shown how little was actually burning.

    On the other hand a hot smoldering fire that is oxygen regulated (as many attic fires are) may present a backdraft scenario. Here a roof hole would be the best way to limit our exposure.

    We should be able to determine the presence of trusses a lot of the time. In the original post I think we were talking about a ranch style home. In my area, any ranches built in the last 20 years have been trussed and many before that. If its truss cut a hole from the bucket of a tower in the roof or gable.

    I'd definitely be careful of putting a PPV fan in with no outlet in the attic space!

    MG3610 has a good point about the decked over attic floor, its rare to see plywood near the exterior bearing walls. I'd like to have some vent of the attic before pulling the ceiling as the steam conversion alone will push the smoke back down toward you.

    And I'm not ready to blow off Fireground 1: It's an attic, why take too many risks? In all likelihood the fire's been attacking the actual structural members for awhile, unless the attic has a detector, the fire can burn awhile before discovery. You can take a minute or two and check for trusses and take the time to make the appropriate vent.

  5. #65
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    Default totally lost

    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy361 View Post
    Hey everyone,

    I have to say I disagree 100% with Fireground, stay off the roof, come on. Know your response district, hell know the town and city you work in, then you will have a better idea of where the truss roofs are, never say never.I work in a old industrial city, about 60 miles north of NYC, balloon frames, thre deckers, 10' apart, and with the exception of newer construction you will be ontop of dimensional lumber, there are exceptions always are, but never say never, know your response district.Don't enter the attic, how will you put the fire out, if you are suggesting letting it burn through the roof then hitting it with a ladder pipe, kiss the roof, attic and the floor below off, not to mention the EXCESSIVE water dammage caused by a large caliber stream. Sorry here folks, I have to ramble. Nothing wrong with augmenting the pull down attic stairs with a ladder, time and manpower dependent, use th reach of your stream, whipping it violently into the involved attic space, remember, you should be aporating your nozzel at least an arms length out in front of your body, heck, with and attic I may cheat a bit, push the pipe up and give it a whip, while be protected outside the space. I know, lots of run on sentences. Regular walk up stairs, again, another great place for refuge, stay low, use the reach of your line and do not crowd the stairs. Attack the fire, be oriented to where you are and stay calm. Pulling ceilings is an option but not my initial tactic. OK, enough, time for more coffee. Peace to all
    Oh skippy boy you missed every point I had to make. We are talkin peaked roof residential houses. I am NOT talking about letting it burn through the roof. Know your area???? You got to kidding. HOw in god's name are you going to know every building and how it was constructed..for get that one! Don't enter the attic unless you have a secured means of egress. Not a pull down set of stairs. I mention NO large caliber master streams. Please read the comments carefully before responding with bad information. Oh and as far as what the other brother has to say about only horizontal venting on the fire floor and not the floor below the attic, you can BE MY GUEST FREE OF CHARGE AT A CLASS I DO CAUSE GOD KNOWS YOU NEED SOME EDUCATION. It is perfectly acceptable and recommended to vent the floor below the attic level in order to provide adequate ventilation into the area where we are working considering in seconds the place is going to turn to sh*t

  6. #66
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    Default Clear things up

    Fellas, a few things to remember:
    1) It is very difficult at times to determine what roof system we are dealing with
    2) Don't take chances, if we dont know, don't put guys up on the roof. Error on the safe side.
    3) We are talking peaked roof residential structure NOT flat roofs
    4) A roof ladder on a light weight constructed roof provides NO support at all. Reason being is that there is no ridge pole at the peak to support the ladder under a structural collapse of the roof. This is basic at best and shouldn't even have to be mentioned in 2007
    5) Putting members into an attic space with limited egress is suicidal, use other methods
    6)Older construction may have dimentional lumber to support roof operations, however, we don't know if the roof was ever rebuilt with trusses or if there happened to be a previous fire where the system had to be replaced.
    7)Disagree with not putting guys up on a peaked roof but look at our history of fatalities and its telling us something. Just cause we have always done it this way doesnt mean its right. There are safer alternative methods.

  7. #67
    Forum Member axemanst3's Avatar
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    fireground,

    I agree with you that under most conditions no one should be in the attic, for the same reason you stated....

    I was just making a statement about the type of venting....

    horizontal IMHO is on the same level as the fire.

    If there is no hole in the roof, and no other means for the fire to breathe, when you take out every window below the fire, it is quite possible that it can come down.

    I've had fire come down on top of me before as I'm sure you have Lt.

    not trying to get into a ****ing contest with you Lt. just making an observation
    JOHN 15:13

    ISAIAH 43:2



    1st Asst. Chief Ray Johns

    FF/NREMT-B

    Marion Volunteer Fire Department

  8. #68
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    Default ok one more time

    LT, I am trying to get you to understand that in order to pull a ceiling down in a cockloft or attic space it as absolutely necessary to have the floor you are operating on completely vented. Ya see if there is no vertical vent in the attic or cockloft, once we start pulling the ceiling and extinguishing fire, all that smoke and heat will bank down where you are on the floor below. If the heat and smoke have no place to go youll get fried and won't be able to work due to the heavy heat and smoke condition. On a flat roof or one that will safely support roof operations then a vent hole is advantageous, however the floor below is going to get completely trashed. By taking ALL the windows you provide yourself a means of egress if things go bad. Glass is a small price to pay for your sfety. I hope this helps, im trying to keep you safe bro.

  9. #69
    Forum Member axemanst3's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    First, stretch the line directly under the fire area remembering NOT to go into the room too deep, basically try to stay at the door till we can open up and see what we really have above our heads. Secondly and immediately, ventilate the floor below the attic completely, taking all the windows out, yes all! especially on an upper floor. We accomplish 2 things this way. The first is that when we begin to open up the attic from below conditions will deteriorate quickly and become miserable. Secondly we provoide ourselves with a means of egress at every window, hopefully with a portable ladder placed at the sill. Remember we are venting horizontally based upon the fact that we cannot send anyone onto the roof to vent vertically. Once we have water at the nozzle, begin opening the ceiling. Keep pulling the ceiling without allowing the line to be opened up unless absolutely necessary. The reason why we wait is that as we open the ceiling into the attic, conditions will be tolerable for us to work in. The minute the line opens up then we bring all the heat and smoke down on us. So, advance into the room, pulling the ceiling as far as we can safely with the engine crew not far behind, usually waiting at the door. Once we have opened enough where the fire is beginiing to intensify, then retreat to the doorway and let the engine team do their job. Straight stream or smooth bore into the attic space with alot of water. Once it darkens down allow the truck guys to go back in to continue to open up until all the ceiling is down and then the line can wash everything down. In my opinion the days of putting guys on peaked roof to vertically vent are over!






    Ok maybe i'm not getting it Lt....

    here's my take:

    You said yourself the minute you open the line.... conditions will deteriorate when you apply water, so you "wait until the fire intensifies", then let the engine crew put it out, if we weren't trying to save the house that would work pretty good.

    I'm not going to pull fire down on top of my crew and I, secondly why would you ruin the unburnt floor?

    I will say it again, VENT THE ROOF and put water in the attic! If you CAN'T vent the roof because of safety reasons, then put someone on a roof ladder against the side of the house and vent it that way.


    VENT ABOVE!!!!!! NOT BELOW!!!
    JOHN 15:13

    ISAIAH 43:2



    1st Asst. Chief Ray Johns

    FF/NREMT-B

    Marion Volunteer Fire Department

  10. #70
    Forum Member JJensenJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    Assume the following scenario.
    1. Attic fire in single story ranch house.
    2. No walk up stairs to attic, but there is either a set of pull down stairs or a hole in the ceiling with a cover allowing access into the attic.
    3. Upon arrival, fire is not through the roof, but burning in a 10 X 20 foot area immediately around the pull down stair/hole in ceiling.
    If the fire is in the immediate vicinity of the attic access, I do not see the need to initially pull down any more ceiling than necessary until overhaul. Open the panel, there's the fire. If not, THEN start pulling down ceiling. Kinda like "try before you pry." If the rickety burnt up pull down stairs is a problem for you (and it usually is for me) then throw a ladder in the scuttle hole.

    As for the possibility of "smoke explosion" because the fire can't breathe, well, in my area that isn't usually an issue. MOST attics here are designed to have a draft in the attic. If there's not gable vents, then there's usually soffit vents on all the eves. If there's fire in the attic, the heat will draft it's own air in, provided the vents haven't been boarded over. That's something you assess in your size-up. Read the smoke, see what you're dealing with, act as you feel necessary.

  11. #71
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    Default I tried

    I give up bro..... do as you see fit..good luck

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    Oh skippy boy you missed every point I had to make. We are talkin peaked roof residential houses. I am NOT talking about letting it burn through the roof. Know your area???? You got to kidding. HOw in god's name are you going to know every building and how it was constructed..for get that one! Don't enter the attic unless you have a secured means of egress.
    Yeah. Maybe someone went overnight and replaced all the roofs in the old houses in my box alarm. You do realize you're talking to a world wide audience. Way too big a brush.

    Maybe it's the coriolis effect that requires you to break every damned window, but you don't have to do it down here.

  13. #73
    Forum Member Motorhead90's Avatar
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    Not to be "the dumb junior" of this thread, but I was sent to an attic fire. They pulled the ceilings on the second floor but they also cut holes at each gable end of the house, extinguished it with lines and tore out insulation. Is this a good method, or a last resort for attic fires?
    Last edited by Motorhead90; 10-22-2007 at 05:01 PM.
    "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up"-Steven Wright

  14. #74
    Forum Member axemanst3's Avatar
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    johnny 46 you got it bud! maybe he just likes to break glass.... lol
    JOHN 15:13

    ISAIAH 43:2



    1st Asst. Chief Ray Johns

    FF/NREMT-B

    Marion Volunteer Fire Department

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    I like to break glass! Can I break glass?
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

  16. #76
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    HOw in god's name are you going to know every building and how it was constructed..for get that one!
    somebody needs to ge out into their distric a little more often...
    My first die has 40,000 people in it and I can honestly say I don't know every single house in the district, but I do know the area well enough to know when the houses where built-60 to a hundred years ago- and how they are constructed. But more important, I know every new home that has been built with light weight trusses.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  17. #77
    MembersZone Subscriber CKirk922's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorhead90 View Post
    They pulled the ceilings on the second floor but they also cut holes at each gable end of the house, extinguished it with lines and tore out insulation. Is this a good method, or a last resort for attic fires?
    What you saw is pretty common in my area. In the old farm houses, they take the roof; while newer construction usually means take a gable. Remove ALL of the insullation, ect.... More often than not, we have to deal with flooring in the attic so pulling the cieling becomes a "AFTER IT IS WET AND RUINED" type of thing.

  18. #78
    MembersZone Subscriber dadman's Avatar
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    I haven't worked an attic-only type fire yet, so this is a good discussion with good info.

    In our area, theres been a few old houses that were rebuilt with lightweight trusses. The old roofing AND rafters were removed and new lightweight common trusses installed. Why, I don't know. but done.
    When remodeling our old farmhouse, I saw some old original actual 2x4 hardwood rafter work and aging that would cause me some concern if I had to vent the roof during a fire. Just because it's old and actual dimension doesn't guarantee it's going to hold up to fire and high heat.

    I could see where having no roof or gable venting woild allow smoke, heat and flame to bank down on FF's pulling down ceiling below the attic fire.

    Another option: Make sure you have window(s) below ceiling vented before opening ceiling and have hose ready and/or going as ceiling pulled? Pushing out smoke/fire if it comes down through ceiling opening.

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    1. 4X4 hole in the gable opposite the wind direction.

    2. Attic ladders suck, we use a little giant style step ladder, much easier to stand on for fighting attic fires.

    3. When one truss fails they all come down.. Absolutely false! When one section of a truss fails, that truss is no longer structurally safe, I have seen many truss roofs with half of the trusses standing and the other half inside the second floor.

    4. If I wont put someone on the roof because of a section under intense fire conditions, I will still allow firefighters under a DIFFERENT section of that roof that has it's structural integrity in place.

    5.Most roofs in our area have at least ridge vents, or gable vents combined with soffit vents, read the smoke conditions if smoke is venting, then pulling the ceiling should be fine.

    6. I agree that if you pull ceiling without venting or cooling the area above first, you will have smoke and hot gases bank down and give you bad mojo. Remember a few years back when some brothers were killed when the fire above a drop ceiling was given oxygen, and it flashed?

    7. This is actually a very informative thread, people do things different, keep an open mind.

  20. #80
    It looks hot in there PureAdrenalin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    When a truss roof collapses, they ALL come down. What good is that roof ladder gonna do ya then?
    I have first hand experience to know this isn't true. Maybe I just got lucky, or perhaps physics doesn't always work the way we think it does.
    'Adversus incendia excubias nocturnas vigilesque commentus est"

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