1. #1
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    Default Stupid newb questions

    Little embarrassed to ask these questions cause they are probably simple questions but anyways. On my dept when we have to use the jaws on a vehicle extrication, we have a charged line pulled with it maned. For a car fire do you adjust the gpm on the nozzle to a lower setting or leave it to the same setting as if you were going into a structure fire? Also, we had the state burn trailer down a few months ago where we practiced going into a structure with a charged hose putting out the fire. When I was second on the line I always had a problem of holding both the hose and ax and still being able crawl with out falling face first into the floor. What is the best way to be able to hold on to every thing? I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes on so be gentle.
    Thanks

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    For the GPM I never really pay attention, just put water on it, I'm sure there's an advantage if you change GPM at the nozzle, but the fire will go out the same. For the axe question I don't understand how your falling on your face, I'm assuming you do it the way most do and hold the axe with the hand that's not on the line and you just crawl with it. Use the handle as an extension of your arm for searching also. Another way is slip the handle through your BA belt and it'll just hang there.

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    well... in my experience on being on a pump panel i kind of judge how much pressure im giving to the hose line by wheather or not the guys on the line are having difficulty holding on to what im giving them for pressure. i dont usually go anything bellow 120psi if they cant handle that then they shouldnt be on a hose line. For the axe deal i agree with the first response or if you dont want to put it in you ba belt try crawling with the blade pointed into the floor so that it creates a void between the handle and the floor so you dont pinch you fingers. Or stay back for few and feed some hose in to get a head of you self then follow it in to back up your buddy the hose will be easier to haul on.

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    For vehicle fires, depends on the size of the vehicle.

    A Vespa, a booster line at 30GPM should be fine.
    Average 2/4-door passenger sedan or light pickup truck, min 1.5" line and at least 95GPM.
    A "big rig" tractor-trailer, fully involved, may require a 2.5" (or multiple 1.5"/1.75" lines) at 300+GPM to successfully bring under control.

    There is no "hard and fast rule" except the "GPM vs BTU" one, which distills most simply to: "Little fire, little water; big fire, BIG water".

    As for what to do with the axe--as someone else suggested, slip the handle through the waistbelt of your SCBA, or wear a "truckmans" or other approved "tool" belt to carry it. I personally find that trying to help hoof a line on my knees with one hand just doesn't do that much. You need both hands free for that one.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Actually those are are two very good questions for a rookie firefighter to ask and they open the door for alot of discussion on policy of diferent departments. In both scenerios you mention it is very likely that you will not have access to water supply. In the case of vehicle extrications the line is laid (for the most part) to provide for life safety of patients and personnel. We require a line with foam capability to be manned constantly by a F/F in full ppe including scba. We also set off a couple of dry chems.

    In the second case it is not a bad idea to have a nozzle that you can reduce to 30 gpm's in order to conserve water. It's okay if you need more in order to knock the fire down but once that is done you need to consider lower gpm's especailly if you are operating off of a booster tank.

    If you wait until you need something you have waited to late.

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    For car fires, we have always used the "trash line" off of the front bumper and left the nozzle setting alone. The operator does pump a little lower than other lines.

    As far a carrying the axe, I've never worried about an axe or haligan if I'm on the line. Properly advancing and handling the line and backing up the person on the nozzle has always taken both hands.

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    Current department, which I have been with for the past 5 years, does not require a line for extrication. I personally disagree with this policy. My most recent previous 2 departments (20 plus years) did require a line. Acyually, neither department did extrication. It was handled by a mutual aid department covering multiple districts. They required that we have a charged line on the ground before they would start operations.

    We also have a bumper mounted handline. It is pumped at a slightly lower pressure only because it is a 150' line vs. our preconnects, which are 200'. The nozzle pressure is the same (90 PSI).

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    i have found that while hoofin hose i put my tool in between my legs while stayin low and usin both hands and creating a huge loop so i dont have to pull much more hose

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    Quote Originally Posted by edge1317 View Post
    For the GPM I never really pay attention, just put water on it, I'm sure there's an advantage if you change GPM at the nozzle, but the fire will go out the same.
    Do you mean the gpm change for vehicle or structure fires? At a structure fire your gpm should NEVER BE LOWER THAN 95 GPM. You CANNOT get a protective fog pattern on less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyaboutEMS17 View Post
    Do you mean the gpm change for vehicle or structure fires? At a structure fire your gpm should NEVER BE LOWER THAN 95 GPM. You CANNOT get a protective fog pattern on less.
    Actually, as I've found out from some classes recently, the "protective fog pattern" in a structure fire is pretty much a myth. Two reasons:
    1) Wide fog pattern causes steam (as in indirect attack), and upsets the thermal balance, bringing said steam right down on your head. Great if you want to have a way overheated steambath experience, not so great otherwise.
    2) In most instances where a hostile fire event (flashover/flameover) is about to take place, a wide fog will cause a large air embolus into the compartment, doing what? Yep, feeding the fire and accelerating the hostile event.

    The preferred method nowadays is to direct a straight stream (whether via combo or smoothbore nozzle) upwards, as this will still cool the gases, but not do as much damage to the thermal balance nor will it cause a "push" of air.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    your gpm should NEVER BE LOWER THAN 95 GPM. You CANNOT get a protective fog pattern on less.
    First it is 125 GPM, and I can't believe they are still teaching "protective fog"
    Don't do it in a structure, unless you enjoy steam burns.
    As for the flow a lot of guys dial down the nozzle to make the line easier to move. Just leave it alone.
    As for the ax question, leave it at the door, the backup position is the most important position on the line. you need both hands and some effort to make life easy on the nozzleman.

    Hope it helps, stay safe

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    I'm guessing he means for vehicle fires.

    Who has training material about using "protective fog" in structures? They're still teaching this in the southeast
    I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSmithnotTMD View Post
    I'm guessing he means for vehicle fires.

    Who has training material about using "protective fog" in structures? They're still teaching this in the southeast
    Captain Peter McBride from Ottawa Fire Service in Canada originally mentioned it (that being, "protective fog" = more harmful than helpful) in a Reading Smoke class I recently took, and was reinforced by DivChief Ed Hadfield (yes, the same one who's a regular contributor in FH Magazine) in "Mission Focused Tactics for First-Due Officers". Basically, the "new consensus" is to use a straight-stream application instead of the wide fog. The wide fog's "hydraulic ventilation" effect pulls too much air into the compartment, mixes it up with the smoke (smoke is fuel!) and accelerates the impending hostile fire event you're doing the "left to live" thing to try to avoid in the first place.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    As for Q1, MIOSHA REQUIRES a charged hose line (not booster line) manned by ff in full PPE. Q2, rules of thumb car fires run 125 GPM, the same as say a structure fire with say two rooms well involved, and psi should be ran at manufactures recommendations and account for pressure loss, remember volume puts out fires not pressure. Q3 I like hose cradled in one arm and axe in that hand and other hand on floor or on scba tank of ff1 while water in flowing. Great questions hope this helps.

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    The only time I've learned about that protective fog pattern was when I went through a flashover simulator a couple of months back. They brought it up, but said that it would rarely be used. Then at the end of the actual simulator training, the instructor did it to show us how it would feel to get steamed out of the room. It's not fun, but it's better than dying in a flashover.

    At training the other day, I was on the nozzle. They had me bring an axe with, which i usually don't do. Since I wanted both hands available, i slid the axe in my gut belt. It was fine at first, but got in the way after awhile. Then even later, it started falling out. If I leaned forward at all, it would just slide out since the head is obviously heavier. I think I might look into buying something that will hold it in.

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    Default Great Questions

    Remember, the only stupid question is the one not asked. Whether it's a structure fire or car fire it should be basically the same. Just get to know if you have enough water to fight the fire especially in a structure. Too little water will kill you and others. If your using a smooth bore you will know quickly whether you have what you need where as an fog nozzle its tuff to tell if your below what you need till its too late. And it's good practice to have a line at extrications.

    As far as the ax, if your backing the guy on the noozle your should have both hands on the line and not worrying about any tools. I know in training they want a tool in your hand all the time but you shouldn't get gigged for leaving the ax in a place you can find it later, door way or in a corner of two walls that you know you can find in the dark.

    But just my opinion, great questions though keep em coming.

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    ......................
    Last edited by kuntrykid; 09-12-2008 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Don't want to be a member of these forums, so I deleted my posts.
    My comments do NOT necessarily reflect the opinions of my department, my fellow volunteers, or anyone else with whom I am associated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    Captain Peter McBride from Ottawa Fire Service in Canada originally mentioned it (that being, "protective fog" = more harmful than helpful) in a Reading Smoke class I recently took, and was reinforced by DivChief Ed Hadfield (yes, the same one who's a regular contributor in FH Magazine) in "Mission Focused Tactics for First-Due Officers". Basically, the "new consensus" is to use a straight-stream application instead of the wide fog. The wide fog's "hydraulic ventilation" effect pulls too much air into the compartment, mixes it up with the smoke (smoke is fuel!) and accelerates the impending hostile fire event you're doing the "left to live" thing to try to avoid in the first place.
    Thanks I'll check them out. It always sounded like BS to me, but I would have to prove such a "radical" statement around here.
    I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSmithnotTMD View Post
    Thanks I'll check them out. It always sounded like BS to me, but I would have to prove such a "radical" statement around here.
    Basically, instead of the wide fog, you just bounce a straight stream off the roof. Still cools the gases a bit, but doesn't introduce air into the mix or cause nearly as much steam.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Talking Protective fog?!

    Durning a training burn, the nozzleman bumped the tip to a fog while advancing up the stairs, and it dindt take him nor me backing him up on the line to realize how fast he needed to take that back to straightstream... It would have been worthless to have a fog, we felt the steam getting to us almost instantly.

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    Pete--Indirect Attack (wide fog into the closed fire room to create steam) has its uses...another "tool in the toolbox", so to speak. One of those uses is not when you're in the same room...
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    my depts sops state that we always leave our nozzels on 95 gpm unless and officers says otherwise, and what i do in a fire is keep my ax or other tool in the belt thats created by your scba strap... or thefirestore . com sells a leather ax craddle that slips on to your scba at the hip and holds your ax for you...

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