1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    RoughRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Oyster Bay, NY
    Posts
    798

    Default Philly Boy Scouts

    “The Boy Scouts’ Philadelphia branch, called the Cradle of Liberty Council, had been renting the Beaux Arts building, which stands on city-owned land, for $1 a year. The city has now ordered the Scouts to pay a ‘fair market’ rent of $200,000 on the grounds that the group refuses to admit openly gay Scouts and Scout leaders...[T]he Boy Scouts, who require a belief in God and therefore also ‘discriminate’ against atheists, are not comfortable with the idea of openly homosexual men leading young boys into the woods. In 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision (with justices Rehnquist, O’Connor, Scalia, Kennedy and Thomas in the majority), upheld the group’s right to bar scoutmasters who are openly gay based on the principle of freedom of association... But the state, or in this case the city of Philadelphia, apparently doesn’t have to give the Scouts a break on their rent. Isn’t it hypocritical, though, to be intolerant in the name of tolerance, to say that it’s wrong to disapprove of the lifestyles of others but OK to condemn the religious and moral beliefs of others?... If America is about anything, it’s about the right to hold beliefs and views with which others disagree, the right to express and act on those views, and the right to freely associate with others holding similar views. That’s not bigotry; it’s true diversity. So a venerable, well-regarded youth group that has done nothing worse than instill formerly uncontroversial values into the millions of young men it has prepared for responsible adulthood is being successfully demonized.” —Investor’s Business Daily
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


    IACOJ PROUD

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    Isn’t it hypocritical, though, to be intolerant in the name of tolerance, to say that it’s wrong to disapprove of the lifestyles of others but OK to condemn the religious and moral beliefs of others
    Not permitting intolerance, especially on the public dime, is not intolerance. They can comply, pay fair market value, or kick the bums out. If it were a group of atheists using public facilities for free while not allowing Christians to attend, you guys would be crying a freaking river. If you or the group you belong to want to discriminate against other people, then do it on your own funding, not that of the taxpayers. Why is it so hard for you people to get a grip on that?

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,681

    Default

    ...[T]he Boy Scouts, who require a belief in God and therefore also ‘discriminate’ against atheists, are not comfortable with the idea of openly homosexual men leading young boys into the woods.
    So it's Ok for the Boy Scouts to require and discriminate, but its not Ok for the city to require and discriminate who they make pay fair rent?


    It's happening near me also, not with Boy Scouts but another group who's religious beliefs have an effect on them paying fair share as well.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    383

    Default

    Kinda of subject but didn't the Boys Scouts start letting girls to join a few years ago. I'm sure that all the scouts have to do is put the word out that they need a new place to meet and they will have offers, probably rent free. My troop never paid rent.
    IACOJ - Senior Jake

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    12,000 Feet Cooking...
    Posts
    186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SSHANK42 View Post
    Kinda of subject but didn't the Boys Scouts start letting girls to join a few years ago. I'm sure that all the scouts have to do is put the word out that they need a new place to meet and they will have offers, probably rent free. My troop never paid rent.
    Yes and No.

    The Explorer Program, The Sea Scout Program, and the Venture Scout program all are coed.

    The Boy Scouts is still for boys only.
    FOR HE WHO SERVES HIS FELLOWS IS OF ALL HIS FELLOWS GREATEST

    IACOJ

  6. #6
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    Not permitting intolerance, especially on the public dime, is not intolerance. They can comply, pay fair market value, or kick the bums out. If it were a group of atheists using public facilities for free while not allowing Christians to attend, you guys would be crying a freaking river. If you or the group you belong to want to discriminate against other people, then do it on your own funding, not that of the taxpayers. Why is it so hard for you people to get a grip on that?
    Why is it so hard for you to see that me and millions of parents just like me absolutely loath the idea of allowing our young sons to be exposed to potential sexual abuse.

    How can you not see that we would much rather that they are taught the true values of Baden Powels ideals in a safe environment.

    Go have a rabid rant on something else you actualy have a grasp on reality about.

    This has nothing to do with your pet hate of religion.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SSHANK42 View Post
    Kinda of subject but didn't the Boys Scouts start letting girls to join a few years ago. I'm sure that all the scouts have to do is put the word out that they need a new place to meet and they will have offers, probably rent free. My troop never paid rent.
    This is not a single Troop, this is the area Council HQ. There is no reason that they should not be paying full rent where ever. They are not a government agency. There are enough wealthy Eagle Scouts out in the world who credit the Scouts with making them the men they are today, that there should be little problem with raising the funds to build or buy a new HQ on land that they own. $200K a year 2for a large piece of Commercial Real Estate is actually a pretty cheap.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Why is it so hard for you to see that me and millions of parents just like me absolutely loath the idea of allowing our young sons to be exposed to potential sexual abuse.

    How can you not see that we would much rather that they are taught the true values of Baden Powels ideals in a safe environment.

    Go have a rabid rant on something else you actualy have a grasp on reality about.

    This has nothing to do with your pet hate of religion.
    Why do so many folks equate Homosexuality with Child Molesters?????
    I don't want any Scoutmaster teaching my son about his sexuality from a Hetro or Homo point of view. So as long as he keeps his orientation to himself, what does it matter? My Scoutmaster's wife had nothing to do with our Troop except for the occasional driving of gear to the start of hikeing and canoe trips. If the Scoutmaster's "wife's" name is Bob, who cares? The reality of this world is that our kids will come into contact with homosexuals, I would rather have them introduced in a mild setting like that, than coming across some militant Homosexuals ready for a gay pride parade.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Why is it so hard for you to see that me and millions of parents just like me absolutely loath the idea of allowing our young sons to be exposed to potential sexual abuse.

    How can you not see that we would much rather that they are taught the true values of Baden Powels ideals in a safe environment.

    Go have a rabid rant on something else you actualy have a grasp on reality about.

    This has nothing to do with your pet hate of religion.

    Do a search and you will find that most child molesters try to live life as a heterosexual, many have wives and kids of their own.

    The men who meet in airport and park bathrooms are closet homosexuals trying to live a hetersexual life.

    Homosexuals and pedophilia are not linked together.

    Homosexuality should not demonized.


    By the way at what age did you DECIDE to like members of the opposite sex?
    I don't recall ever making that decision but have always liked girls so why is it so hard to believe that (male) homosexuals never decided to like other males, they just did.

    The government should not and cannot let an organization that discriminates against a large section of the society have some special rights.

    Either let the homosexuals in or pay the fair market value for the property. Pretty damn easy to decide.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    This is not a single Troop, this is the area Council HQ. There is no reason that they should not be paying full rent where ever. They are not a government agency. There are enough wealthy Eagle Scouts out in the world who credit the Scouts with making them the men they are today, that there should be little problem with raising the funds to build or buy a new HQ on land that they own. $200K a year 2for a large piece of Commercial Real Estate is actually a pretty cheap.
    I misunderstood. I guess the word "council" should have been the give away. However I think it is wrong that all of a sudden the city has changed their position because of what the scouts have been formed around. Is it right or wrong to exclude somebody from a club because of their sexual orientation? Opinions of course will vary.
    IACOJ - Senior Jake

  11. #11
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    Try reading what I wrote. In case you are having trouble here it is again...

    they are taught the true values of Baden Powels ideals in a safe environment

    Where in that did I mention child molesters? I said a safe environment.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Try reading what I wrote. In case you are having trouble here it is again...

    they are taught the true values of Baden Powels ideals in a safe environment

    Where in that did I mention child molesters? I said a safe environment.
    So how does having a homosexual involved make it an unsafe environment? I recently learned that one of my old asst. Scoutmasters is/was gay, he never let on, never hurt anyone, and taught us many great field skills while also teaching us to be good and caring citizens. Why should he have been excluded? Thank God he was not, he made me a better man.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Just wait until Hillary gets in there. It will take less than a year to have religious facilities lose their tax exempt status.

    (Yes, I have all but given up hope. She will be our nexyt President).
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Just wait until Hillary gets in there. It will take less than a year to have religious facilities lose their tax exempt status.

    (Yes, I have all but given up hope. She will be our nexyt President).
    Remember that she was a Goldwater Girl until she meet Slick Willy. She might surprise you with her moderation, I think. I am more concerned with the Cabinet will assemble as rewards for work done on both her's and Bill's behalf, than I am of anything that she will actuallyput forward and push herself.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    Remember that she was a Goldwater Girl until she meet Slick Willy. She might surprise you with her moderation, I think. I am more concerned with the Cabinet will assemble as rewards for work done on both her's and Bill's behalf, than I am of anything that she will actuallyput forward and push herself.
    And she has evolved into an unabashed narcisist and socialist. There is no moderation there.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Why is it so hard for you to see that me and millions of parents just like me absolutely loath the idea of allowing our young sons to be exposed to potential sexual abuse.
    While I certainly agree with your point, it bears mentioning that pedophiles are overwhelmingly more likely to be heterosexual. It's arguable that an openly gay scoutmaster is probably statistically less likely to be a threat to little Tommy Tenderfoot than openly straight Chester the Molester who happens to be a closet pedophile...

    Personally, I dislike the BSA's intolerant position on both homosexuality and religion a great deal. As an Eagle Scout, I think they violate many of the ideals that Scouting used to teach.

    Unfortunately, the reality of the matter is that Scouting survives based on its biggest contributors/supporters -- all of them large, well organized, Christian Churches -- and they tend to be a pretty intolerant lot.

    All that being said, I support the BSA's right to set their own rules. They're a private organization and entitled to follow their own institutional conscience. By the same token, govenrment is not only entirely within it's rights but obligated to hold the BSA to the same standards as any other agency that openly practices discrimination.
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 10-26-2007 at 04:25 PM.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,401

    Default

    The Boy Scouts of America's refusal to bend its rules to permit gay scouts will cost the organization's local chapter $200,000 a year if it wishes to keep its headquarters in a city-owned building on Logan Square.

    Representatives of the Boy Scouts of America's Cradle of Liberty Council were notified that to remain in their 79-year-old landmark headquarters, they needed to pay the city a "fair market" rent, Fairmount Park Commission president Robert N.C. Nix said Wednesday. Currently, the rent is $1 a year.

    The city decided on the rent proposal after it was unable to reach a compromise with the local scout council in talks that have gone on since May.

    "Once we know what the Cradle of Liberty Boy Scouts want to do, we'll probably want to weigh in with the city about how to proceed," Nix told the park commission.

    Barring a resolution, the Cradle of Liberty Council - about 64,000 scouts in Philadelphia and parts of Delaware and Montgomery Counties - must vacate the property at 22d and Winter Streets after May 31.

    "It's disappointing, and it's certainly a threat," said Jeff Jubelirer, a spokesman for Cradle of Liberty Council, referring to the rent's impact on the scouts' chances of staying on the site.

    Jubelirer said that $200,000 a year in rent "would have to come from programs. That's 30 new Cub Scout packs, or 800 needy kids going to our summer camp."

    Nevertheless, Jubelirer said, scouting officials will ask City Solicitor Romulo L. Diaz Jr. for details on the real estate appraisals that yielded the $200,000 rent figure.

    Cradle of Liberty officials have said they could not renounce the scouts' long-established policy of not opening membership to atheists or openly gay people without running afoul of their charter with the scouts' National Council.

    City officials have said they could not legally rent taxpayer-owned property for a dollar a year to a private organization that discriminates.

    The land belongs to the City of Philadelphia but has been leased since 1928 for that token sum to the scouts, who built the landmark Beaux Arts building.

    That lease came into question only after a U.S. Supreme Court ruling in 2000 in a New Jersey case involving an openly gay scout who was barred from serving as troop leader.

    The high court in Boy Scouts of America v. Dale ruled, 5-4, that the scouts, as a private organization, have a right of "expressive association" under the First Amendment to set their own membership rules.

    The scouts have long required members to swear an oath of duty to God, and their rules prohibit membership by anyone who is openly homosexual. For that reason, scouting officials initially greeted the Supreme Court's ruling as a victory.

    That mood quickly evaporated, however, as local government officials around the nation began reexamining long-standing preferential relationships with scouts.

    Unlike the scouts, public officials are also bound by a line of Supreme Court opinions barring taxpayer support of any group that discriminates.

    In Philadelphia, officials wrestled for months for a way to let the scouts remain at their longtime headquarters.

    At one point in 2005, the city and scouts seemed poised to agree on a policy statement adopted by New York scouts. That statement, while not renouncing the bars against atheist or gay members, affirmed that "prejudice, intolerance and unlawful discrimination in any form are unacceptable."

    But last year, Diaz wrote Cradle of Liberty Council officials to say the suggested policy statement could not be reconciled with the city's own anti-discriminatory fair-practices ordinance.

    Again, both sides began trading proposals. That ended May 31, when City Council voted 16-1 to authorize ending the lease with Cradle of Liberty Council.

    The resolution was introduced unexpectedly by Councilman Darrell L. Clarke and passed, 16-1, with no debate.

    Both Clarke, a Center City Democrat whose district includes the scouts building, and Diaz, a prominent member of the city's gay community, said they hoped the resolution would spur talks to resolve the dispute.

    Nix said Wednesday that those talks had apparently failed, leading to the lease proposal.

    Contact staff writer Joseph A. Slobodzian at 215-854-2985 or jslobodzian@phillynews.com.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber
    RoughRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Oyster Bay, NY
    Posts
    798

    Default

    The land belongs to the City of Philadelphia but has been leased since 1928 for that token sum to the scouts, who built the landmark Beaux Arts building.
    I hope the Scouts are entitled to " Fair market value" for the building. Its got to be worth a few million.
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


    IACOJ PROUD

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. How many stations does your FD Have?
    By Engine 101 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 81
    Last Post: 07-05-2008, 07:01 AM
  2. Boy Scouts To Play Victims In Upstate Mass-Casualty Terror Drill
    By SANDSTROMJM in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-01-2004, 10:30 PM
  3. Utah-Feds sue Boy scouts for Wildfire
    By UTFFEMT in forum Wildland Firefighting
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-02-2004, 10:33 PM
  4. Greetings from Detroit Boy Scout's Engine 5
    By Chief Dumas in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-22-2001, 11:13 PM
  5. Boy scouts need you!
    By APG1 in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-02-2000, 03:15 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register