1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    To me, it makes a lot of difference. Communication in this job is very, very important.

    Can you imagine a Firefighter down and his/her broken or limited radio traffic is- "I am on 10... (blank)" Was that 10 truck or 10 Engine? I donít know.

    It comes back to just proper English. Do we say "Mr. Smith" or "Smith Mr."? Itís more of putting thing in a proper category.

    Please take another look at our very recent wildfires in California. Engines, patrols, BCs, dozers, helicopters and other various types of apparatus were sent here to assist in the conflagration. Classifying every piece of equipment by its "type" vs. # makes a world of difference.

    Can you imagine if 50 engines rolled into your incident and trying to log, track and assign all of this equipment by number first? It would be a headache. But if the IC says- "Give me 10 engines on the West side!" Then it would be easier. Chief was that 10 engines or unit 10 engine? You break the units down as needed via t-cards. All of the engines are red, trucks are orange, etc. Can you just imagine 1000+ vehciles or various types coming into your state and trying to track it my numner system first vs. its' type. You could get lost with 3412 engine, 4658 engine, 332 engine, 12 patrol, etc. Rather put them in to banks of type 1 engines, type 3, patrols, dozers.

    ICS overall is easier when you break things down into categories. Remember, we got this system and other tactics from the military. The military will use categories as well- Tanks, Humvees, and aircraft.

    Pretty much everything in life is by a category first, followed by this model #- Ford F-150, Chevy 1500, Sig Sauer P226, Glock 17, Pierce Arrow, Scott 4.5, etc...

    It just comes down to proper English and category. Tradition canít be the catch all for everything, or you'd never be reading my posting here on a computer screen. ie- "We donít need those fancy-smachy computers! Paper and pencil is tradition!!!"

    -Bou


    But wait whats mopre confusing



    Command
    Send 2 Engine to the back or
    Send engine 2 to the back
    Was that engine 2 or 22
    2? 22? what.....I am lost
    Anyway in a big incident where you may want 10 engines sent to point "A" wouldn't that be a task force and wouldn't they take care of large equipment deployments over a phone line or in person at the central command? Engine 10 on this big incident, I would imagine, is so far down the pecking order from the actual IC that they would probably not have direct contact with IC. Besides what do they do if there are 10 Engine 10's from 10 different depts.......

    Again, It doesn't really seem like a big deal to me, Chicago, Garcia, and many others who represent many different depts of different sizes all over.
    NIMS got you down........It's got everyone screwed up........

    7554 EHS Out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Clearly this is against the rules as you are "freelancing" and those antics will not be tolerated!!
    Oh, wiise guy, huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Didn't know we struck such a nerve with you, Bou. It has nothing to do with computers and graphite lead pencils, it's how some places elect to call thier rigs. I think NJ departments who use "3312 enroute" is crazy, rather than saying "Engine 12" but if it works for them, hey, more power to 'em.

    Makes no difference to me....
    Now you had to go and strike that nerve!

    #%#&%(ing NJ Volly depts that numbered their Apparatus like that made me slightly homicidal!
    1511
    1512
    1530
    1545
    1550
    1570

    Unless you are FROM the area of station 15, you YOU know what types of apparatus they were?
    Oh, and my shield # was 1563
    So if I were to call dispatch to report an incident (which I did, when someone had an asthma attack at a party of mine), that throws a larger monkey wrench into things.

    "1563 is O/S, reporting a female in respiratory distress, 1530 do you copy?"

    AHHHHHHHH, the insanity has gotten to me!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ehs7554 View Post
    Anyway in a big incident where you may want 10 engines sent to point "A" wouldn't that be a task force and wouldn't they take care of large equipment deployments over a phone line or in person at the central command? Engine 10 on this big incident, I would imagine, is so far down the pecking order from the actual IC that they would probably not have direct contact with IC. Besides what do they do if there are 10 Engine 10's from 10 different depts.......



    !
    You are on the right track. But when an incident grows beyond a departments capabilities and outside rescources are called in, then you have statewide identifying letters combined with your engine #. You are also assigned a programmable radio and given a frequency to operate under while you are assigned to a strike team. For example our identifier would be FRN1002E3. The neighboring department would be NCN1220E3.
    Those two numbers could very well be assigned to the same 5 engine strike team. So the strike team leader maintains contact with the IC and the strike team. The engines and leader can converse on their given channel without stepping on another team. It also helps to have a bazillion TAC channels.
    IAFF

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    Actually, you guys did not strike a nerve with me. Thats why I didnt really post much on the subject in the first place.

    Again, its one of this things in the fire service that solely based on "tradition". And again, if you can find a good reason to justify it, please let me know.

    As long as I have been in the fire service, its been "Engine 23", "Truck 45" and "Medic 39". Justifcation- Clear text.

    Please add "Truck 10 vs. 10 Truck" to the other famious list here- Paid vs. Volly, smooth bore vs. combo, etc...

    Oh, PS- To me, if you agency doesnt have over 999 units assigned to it, I could never justify the 4 digit numbering system. There are other ways to assign a fleet of apparatus, starting with the "E" of engine letter vs. "1" out of 1439 stating its an engine. But thats a whole differenet debate with Bou.

    Now I must get back to shooting my "17 Glock".

    Love,
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 10-28-2007 at 09:18 PM.

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    I really don't see the big hoopla about it.
    Why are our trucks red?
    Tradition.
    Why are our lids leather?
    Tradition.
    Why is it 10 Truck, not Truck 10?
    Tradition.

    But please, do not confuse my "If it aint broke, don't fix it" attitude with that of "We have always done it this way, and dammit, we always will".
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    I really don't see the big hoopla about it.
    Why are our trucks red?
    Tradition.
    Why are our lids leather?
    Tradition.
    Why is it 10 Truck, not Truck 10?
    Tradition.

    But please, do not confuse my "If it aint broke, don't fix it" attitude with that of "We have always done it this way, and dammit, we always will".
    Not only are our trucks red, but our engines are too!!HA!! Is there any other color?

    Why are the lids leather? Again is there anything else? They at least taste better!

    10 truck, not truck 10..........truck 10 is 10 truck.......I don't understand the problem..

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Please add "Truck 10 vs. 10 Truck" to the other famious list here- Paid vs. Volly, smooth bore vs. combo, etc...
    But since FDNY is older than the state of California - doesn't that make their system the original and correct way? Doesn't that make everyone who says it the proper way (ie truck 10 - although truck 10 here is a tower, so I guess I picked the wrong example!) just changing the system for the sake of change, since it worked fine before and there was no improvement needed?

    Oh, PS- To me, if you agency doesnt have over 999 units assigned to it, I could never justify the 4 digit numbering system.
    We agree on this one!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Oh, PS- To me, if you agency doesnt have over 999 units assigned to it, I could never justify the 4 digit numbering system.
    I agree if a single agency goes this route that it is a step towards unnecessary complexity. However I have seen this implemented in a countywide system where units from neighboring agencies have auto-aid arrangements and mix together frequently.

    Starts with a three digit number. First digit represents agency, second the resource type, third the actual number.

    Agencies...
    1 - Gotham
    2 - Metropolis
    3 - Fire District #3

    Resources...
    1 - Engine
    2 - Truck
    3 - Rescue
    4 - Tanker/Tender

    In this system, it just saves a bunch of syllables to say "231" instead of "Metropolis Rescue 1", and simplifies CAD and accountability. It shortens "Gotham Engine 4 from District 3 Rescue 6" down to "113 from 336".

    For larger agencies that don't mix much, this system would be silly.

    There are no foolproof systems that I have found though. It isn't too painful to expand past ten districts (the tenth agency's Engine 1 would be 1011), but what if some agencies have more than ten of a certain resource? Then it breaks completely (does 1111 stand for the 11th agency's Engine 1, or the 1st agency's Engine 11?).

    That was a much too rambly way of saying that what may make no sense to us does not automatically make it invalid everywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricHoser View Post
    Resources...
    1 - Engine
    2 - Truck
    3 - Rescue
    4 - Tanker/Tender
    Again, replace the 1,2,3,4 with E,T,R and WT and you'll have an easier way to figure out who is who and far less numbers to deal with.

    As for FDNY being older than the state of California, I always have said- When you turn to insults in a debate, you've lost it regardless or being right or wrong.

    Again, can someone please answer the original question, besides "tradition"? I would like to know the answer as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Again, replace the 1,2,3,4 with E,T,R and WT and you'll have an easier way to figure out who is who and far less numbers to deal with.
    Funny you say that. My current agency's countywide system has done exactly that. "Engine 8-5" is the 8th agency's Engine 5. It works really very well. I was trying to make a case for the all-number system in certain situations in defense of those who have them but it is my mostly worthless opinion that it is usually not the best way to do a countywide system.

    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Again, can someone please answer the original question, besides "tradition"? I would like to know the answer as well.
    I'll also be listening for that.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    But since FDNY is older than the state of California - doesn't that make their system the original and correct way?
    We agree on this one!
    Not at all in my opinion. Just because it is "older" doesn't mean it is wiser or the "correct" way of doing it. That my friend is called tradition.

    No matter what you call your vehicles, what numbers and letters you put on them, you have to devise a system that works for you. If calling it "10 truck" vs. a 2169, great! To each his own. Just as long as when I call for 10 engines, I receive 10 pumpers, not "10 engine!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricHoser View Post
    Funny you say that. My current agency's countywide system has done exactly that. "Engine 8-5" is the 8th agency's Engine 5.

    Actually, your agency doesnt do exactly that. Drop the "8" and add the "E" and make it E85.

    Lettering companies within multiple agencies from one PSAP isnt that hard.

    Speaking of tradition and "its always been that way", can you imaging if our military stood by that way of thinking? They would still be on horses marching in face to face and using ball and pawer rifle guns. Something and organization just needs to move forward, regardless of type of service provided.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 10-29-2007 at 03:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Actually, your agency doesnt do exactly that. Drop the "8" and add the "E" and make it E85.
    OK, we're splitting hairs now. Technically, you are correct. My observations on the differences:

    1. Calling it "Engine" (or Medic, Tender, Ladder, etc) makes it fully NIMS-friendly.

    2. "E", "T", "WT" may sound similar over a rough/intermittent/scratchy radio transmission, could be mistaken for each other or a number (3). Having the phonetically different actual words to describe a resource reduces the possibility of miscommunication.

    Everyone's apparatus is numbered precisely according to your system, though. Engine 8-5's changeable placard is indeed E85.

    If I ever get to pass down your way and have a chance to buy you a beer, I am sure we'll have to think of something else to chat about, we've mutually about exhausted the topic, haven't we?
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    We use the 4-digit numbering for our apparatus in the county. We're not a county department, but have a common dispatch/radio system, common numbering, and lots of mutual aid.

    In our case the first two digits are the district/town, third is the station, and 4th is the resource type/number (1-3 Engine, 4-5 Truck..etc). While the system has its drawbacks it is nice to know where the unit is coming from. I know 3125 is Moorestown's ladder while 2512 is Medford's engine. Going with a sequential numbering by unit type (Engine 10, Truck 51..etc) would require some memorization to know where each unit was located. Is T10 and E10 in the same house? Is there any pattern to the numbering to aid in recollection?

    As was said previously, it all comes down to what you're used to. Operationally I see no difference between calling your apparatus 10 Truck, Truck 10, Truck 3125 as long as you, and everyone you work with knows the system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Didn't know we struck such a nerve with you, Bou. It has nothing to do with computers and graphite lead pencils, it's how some places elect to call thier rigs. I think NJ departments who use "3312 enroute" is crazy, rather than saying "Engine 12" but if it works for them, hey, more power to 'em.

    Makes no difference to me....
    We sign responding with our 4 digit vehicle number simply because they are not always Engine or Truck. Our assigned tasks can be set by IC.

    So, 4201 would sign on the air and IC could then assign it as Engine 1 or Truck 1. Once it's assigned, that's what it goes by. It works for us.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Can you imagine if 50 engines rolled into your incident and trying to log, track and assign all of this equipment by number first? It would be a headache. But if the IC says- "Give me 10 engines on the West side!" Then it would be easier. Chief was that 10 engines or unit 10 engine?
    Thats why in our communication manual stipulates when speaking company numbers...they are broken down...as in Engine 71 is spoken "Engine Seven-One"....Ladder 34 Irons is "Three-four Irons" If a Chief wanted Engine 10 he would call for Engine One-Oh.

    Besides in the above example...10 Engines is plural and 10 Engine isn't. And a chief asking for 10 Engines will stipulate he needs "an Additional 10 Engines over X-Alarm"

    This whole conversation is really gotten way off track...plus I'm not sure how my dept got targeted for it...but it is mostly just spoken in slang and daily conversation...it has little to do with offical commications.

    When someone says "Ladder"...the Ladder is first as in Ladder 107, or Ladder 175...some say Truck they will place Truck at the end...as in 111 Truck, 18 Truck. or in the context of a house Engine 76 and 22 Truck.

    Why it is...I have no idea nor does anyone around here ever give it a thought.

    There is no need to justify it or to blame it on Tradition...it works fine and it doesn't compromise safety as far as we are concerned...anyone else who thinks otherwise just has an axe to grind.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 10-29-2007 at 04:54 PM.

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    Until departments that use such terminology find a problem with it, wether it be safety or communications, than to each their own.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    As for FDNY being older than the state of California, I always have said- When you turn to insults in a debate, you've lost it regardless or being right or wrong.
    You are a singularly humorless young lady. If you missed the lightheartedness of the post, well, there's no help for that. Truth be told, I couldn't care less about how California or FDNY do things, I was just commenting on one of the silliest beefs I have seen here in awhile. You think that was an insult? And you work in a firehouse? I guess things really are different there...

    P.S. FDNY (and Chicago, and Boston, and Philly, and.... you get the picture) has been fighting fires far longer than CA has been a state - so why so touchy? Get over it and yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    You are a singularly humorless young lady. If you missed the lightheartedness of the post, well, there's no help for that. Truth be told, I couldn't care less about how California or FDNY do things, I was just commenting on one of the silliest beefs I have seen here in awhile. You think that was an insult? And you work in a firehouse? I guess things really are different there...

    P.S. FDNY (and Chicago, and Boston, and Philly, and.... you get the picture) has been fighting fires far longer than CA has been a state - so why so touchy? Get over it and yourself.
    I actually really dont care who's/what's older. And no, I was insulted either. I just had to point out how the conversation took a sour turn.

    Again, its not a big deal to me. Its just oding something backwards "because we've always done it that way". And again, no one has still be able able to answer the original question.

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    I look at it this way..

    Is it costing firemen their lives?

    Is it costing unnecessary tax dollars being spent?

    Is it hurting the public?

    Well Hakuna Matata my friends, I see NO for all three.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Speaking of tradition and "its always been that way", can you imaging if our military stood by that way of thinking? They would still be on horses marching in face to face and using ball and pawer rifle guns. Something and organization just needs to move forward, regardless of type of service provided.
    Your big problem is that there is a "tradition" of using this name system. Yeah, thank God the military doesn't keep old names for the sake of tradition.

    Although the division was created as a result of a proven need for large horse-mounted formations, by 1940, the march of progress had left the horse far behind.

    The era of the tank, automobile, aircraft, and parachute had dawned and eclipsed the age of the armored horseman. The Japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbor erased all doubt. An impatient 1st Cavalry Division was dismounted in 1943 and processed for overseas movement to the Southwest Pacific as foot soldiers.


    http://www.hood.army.mil/1stcavdiv/index.htm

    Jesus, there's even horses on their website header! Theres no way they can function on the battlefield with a name like that. Someone could ask for the 1st cav and get sent horses by mistake!!! Hey, hold on... 10 truck.....1st cav....shouldn't that be cavaly#1? And Airborne #82?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    I always wondered this too.

    I think it really comes down to is- Someone thought of it, it stuck and its been like this ever since.

    Totally a stupid way of doing things.
    You, my California (no offense) Brother, started by saying that it was stupid.

    This DID NOT in any way answer the young brothers question as to how this way of talking came about.

    And I..... not unlike ChicagoFF, FFFRED, etc.....will not likely be attending a brush fire that requires more than 1 Engine (Engine 1?), so the confusion ends there.

    And...... I will continue to say "THE Number 1 Truck" on the radio, with or without backing from someone on my "job" or from another state.

    To answer the question.......I thought I made it up !!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    I actually really dont care who's/what's older. And no, I was insulted either. I just had to point out how the conversation took a sour turn.
    As for FDNY being older than the state of California, I always have said- When you turn to insults in a debate, you've lost it regardless or being right or wrong.
    You're right, I have no idea why I thought you were insulted...

    Again, its not a big deal to me. Its just oding something backwards "because we've always done it that way". And again, no one has still be able able to answer the original question.
    And according to the ones that use this system you are saying it backwards. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Also, if they've always done it that way, and they are far older than you, then it's not backwards - you are for changing it!
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    The area just north of me uses a very well thought out system, in my opinion. Each jurisdiction within the council of governments(COG) was assigned a number that is to precede the individual engine/truck/rescue companys unit numbers. For example Fairfax City and County were assigned the number 4(Unified dispatch and automatic aid). So Rescue Engine 33 is actually Rescue Engine 433. Prince William County just outside of fairfax was assigned "5."(Tower 512)

    So if Rescue 419 is going mutual aid to Prince William County all they have to do is change radio frequency's, they mark up as Rescue 419 still.

    I know there are others on this forum who know this system better then myself maybe they can add anything I missed.
    Last edited by LADDER2EKU; 10-29-2007 at 09:28 PM.
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