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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    To me, it makes a lot of difference. Communication in this job is very, very important.

    Can you imagine a Firefighter down and his/her broken or limited radio traffic is- "I am on 10... (blank)" Was that 10 truck or 10 Engine? I donít know.
    You can't be serious! OK, to use your goofy example if all he gets out is "I'm on 10..." Then you know for a fact that it's either 10 truck or 10 engine. If all he gets out is "I'm on engine..." now he could be on any of the multiple engines on scene. This is the strangest thing to get your panties in a wad about. I couldn't care less what you call anything in California because I will never be working there! You will never be here! Who cares if we know what the other is saying - as if it's really that complicated.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service


  2. #22
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    Didn't know we struck such a nerve with you, Bou. It has nothing to do with computers and graphite lead pencils, it's how some places elect to call thier rigs. I think NJ departments who use "3312 enroute" is crazy, rather than saying "Engine 12" but if it works for them, hey, more power to 'em.

    Makes no difference to me....

  3. #23
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    I agree with Bou to a point. When you have an event the size of Cali's conflagration, you could have as many as 50 or 60 different departments there all reporting to one IC center. It's necessary to have a clear set of communication standards set for fires of that magnitude. What you say on your local channel is up to the department and does not make any difference to me. "Engine 3 AIQ 3 House"
    IAFF

  4. #24
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    "Engine 3 AIQ 3 House"
    Ha! I love the AIQ, only one place using that in Virginia that I know of.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    You can't be serious! OK, to use your goofy example if all he gets out is "I'm on 10..." Then you know for a fact that it's either 10 truck or 10 engine. If all he gets out is "I'm on engine..." now he could be on any of the multiple engines on scene. This is the strangest thing to get your panties in a wad about. I couldn't care less what you call anything in California because I will never be working there! You will never be here! Who cares if we know what the other is saying - as if it's really that complicated.
    You totally beat me to that one. I was thinking the exact thing as soon as I read his comment.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    To me, it makes a lot of difference. Communication in this job is very, very important.

    Can you imagine a Firefighter down and his/her broken or limited radio traffic is- "I am on 10... (blank)" Was that 10 truck or 10 Engine? I donít know.

    It comes back to just proper English. Do we say "Mr. Smith" or "Smith Mr."? Itís more of putting thing in a proper category.

    Please take another look at our very recent wildfires in California. Engines, patrols, BCs, dozers, helicopters and other various types of apparatus were sent here to assist in the conflagration. Classifying every piece of equipment by its "type" vs. # makes a world of difference.

    Can you imagine if 50 engines rolled into your incident and trying to log, track and assign all of this equipment by number first? It would be a headache. But if the IC says- "Give me 10 engines on the West side!" Then it would be easier. Chief was that 10 engines or unit 10 engine? You break the units down as needed via t-cards. All of the engines are red, trucks are orange, etc. Can you just imagine 1000+ vehciles or various types coming into your state and trying to track it my numner system first vs. its' type. You could get lost with 3412 engine, 4658 engine, 332 engine, 12 patrol, etc. Rather put them in to banks of type 1 engines, type 3, patrols, dozers.

    ICS overall is easier when you break things down into categories. Remember, we got this system and other tactics from the military. The military will use categories as well- Tanks, Humvees, and aircraft.

    Pretty much everything in life is by a category first, followed by this model #- Ford F-150, Chevy 1500, Sig Sauer P226, Glock 17, Pierce Arrow, Scott 4.5, etc...

    It just comes down to proper English and category. Tradition canít be the catch all for everything, or you'd never be reading my posting here on a computer screen. ie- "We donít need those fancy-smachy computers! Paper and pencil is tradition!!!"

    -Bou


    But wait whats mopre confusing



    Command
    Send 2 Engine to the back or
    Send engine 2 to the back
    Was that engine 2 or 22
    2? 22? what.....I am lost
    Anyway in a big incident where you may want 10 engines sent to point "A" wouldn't that be a task force and wouldn't they take care of large equipment deployments over a phone line or in person at the central command? Engine 10 on this big incident, I would imagine, is so far down the pecking order from the actual IC that they would probably not have direct contact with IC. Besides what do they do if there are 10 Engine 10's from 10 different depts.......

    Again, It doesn't really seem like a big deal to me, Chicago, Garcia, and many others who represent many different depts of different sizes all over.
    NIMS got you down........It's got everyone screwed up........

    7554 EHS Out!

  7. #27
    makes good girls go bad BLSboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Clearly this is against the rules as you are "freelancing" and those antics will not be tolerated!!
    Oh, wiise guy, huh?

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  8. #28
    makes good girls go bad BLSboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Didn't know we struck such a nerve with you, Bou. It has nothing to do with computers and graphite lead pencils, it's how some places elect to call thier rigs. I think NJ departments who use "3312 enroute" is crazy, rather than saying "Engine 12" but if it works for them, hey, more power to 'em.

    Makes no difference to me....
    Now you had to go and strike that nerve!

    #%#&%(ing NJ Volly depts that numbered their Apparatus like that made me slightly homicidal!
    1511
    1512
    1530
    1545
    1550
    1570

    Unless you are FROM the area of station 15, you YOU know what types of apparatus they were?
    Oh, and my shield # was 1563
    So if I were to call dispatch to report an incident (which I did, when someone had an asthma attack at a party of mine), that throws a larger monkey wrench into things.

    "1563 is O/S, reporting a female in respiratory distress, 1530 do you copy?"

    AHHHHHHHH, the insanity has gotten to me!!!!

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  9. #29
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehs7554 View Post
    Anyway in a big incident where you may want 10 engines sent to point "A" wouldn't that be a task force and wouldn't they take care of large equipment deployments over a phone line or in person at the central command? Engine 10 on this big incident, I would imagine, is so far down the pecking order from the actual IC that they would probably not have direct contact with IC. Besides what do they do if there are 10 Engine 10's from 10 different depts.......



    !
    You are on the right track. But when an incident grows beyond a departments capabilities and outside rescources are called in, then you have statewide identifying letters combined with your engine #. You are also assigned a programmable radio and given a frequency to operate under while you are assigned to a strike team. For example our identifier would be FRN1002E3. The neighboring department would be NCN1220E3.
    Those two numbers could very well be assigned to the same 5 engine strike team. So the strike team leader maintains contact with the IC and the strike team. The engines and leader can converse on their given channel without stepping on another team. It also helps to have a bazillion TAC channels.
    IAFF

  10. #30
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Actually, you guys did not strike a nerve with me. Thats why I didnt really post much on the subject in the first place.

    Again, its one of this things in the fire service that solely based on "tradition". And again, if you can find a good reason to justify it, please let me know.

    As long as I have been in the fire service, its been "Engine 23", "Truck 45" and "Medic 39". Justifcation- Clear text.

    Please add "Truck 10 vs. 10 Truck" to the other famious list here- Paid vs. Volly, smooth bore vs. combo, etc...

    Oh, PS- To me, if you agency doesnt have over 999 units assigned to it, I could never justify the 4 digit numbering system. There are other ways to assign a fleet of apparatus, starting with the "E" of engine letter vs. "1" out of 1439 stating its an engine. But thats a whole differenet debate with Bou.

    Now I must get back to shooting my "17 Glock".

    Love,
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 10-28-2007 at 08:18 PM.

  11. #31
    makes good girls go bad BLSboy's Avatar
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    I really don't see the big hoopla about it.
    Why are our trucks red?
    Tradition.
    Why are our lids leather?
    Tradition.
    Why is it 10 Truck, not Truck 10?
    Tradition.

    But please, do not confuse my "If it aint broke, don't fix it" attitude with that of "We have always done it this way, and dammit, we always will".
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    I really don't see the big hoopla about it.
    Why are our trucks red?
    Tradition.
    Why are our lids leather?
    Tradition.
    Why is it 10 Truck, not Truck 10?
    Tradition.

    But please, do not confuse my "If it aint broke, don't fix it" attitude with that of "We have always done it this way, and dammit, we always will".
    Not only are our trucks red, but our engines are too!!HA!! Is there any other color?

    Why are the lids leather? Again is there anything else? They at least taste better!

    10 truck, not truck 10..........truck 10 is 10 truck.......I don't understand the problem..

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Please add "Truck 10 vs. 10 Truck" to the other famious list here- Paid vs. Volly, smooth bore vs. combo, etc...
    But since FDNY is older than the state of California - doesn't that make their system the original and correct way? Doesn't that make everyone who says it the proper way (ie truck 10 - although truck 10 here is a tower, so I guess I picked the wrong example!) just changing the system for the sake of change, since it worked fine before and there was no improvement needed?

    Oh, PS- To me, if you agency doesnt have over 999 units assigned to it, I could never justify the 4 digit numbering system.
    We agree on this one!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Oh, PS- To me, if you agency doesnt have over 999 units assigned to it, I could never justify the 4 digit numbering system.
    I agree if a single agency goes this route that it is a step towards unnecessary complexity. However I have seen this implemented in a countywide system where units from neighboring agencies have auto-aid arrangements and mix together frequently.

    Starts with a three digit number. First digit represents agency, second the resource type, third the actual number.

    Agencies...
    1 - Gotham
    2 - Metropolis
    3 - Fire District #3

    Resources...
    1 - Engine
    2 - Truck
    3 - Rescue
    4 - Tanker/Tender

    In this system, it just saves a bunch of syllables to say "231" instead of "Metropolis Rescue 1", and simplifies CAD and accountability. It shortens "Gotham Engine 4 from District 3 Rescue 6" down to "113 from 336".

    For larger agencies that don't mix much, this system would be silly.

    There are no foolproof systems that I have found though. It isn't too painful to expand past ten districts (the tenth agency's Engine 1 would be 1011), but what if some agencies have more than ten of a certain resource? Then it breaks completely (does 1111 stand for the 11th agency's Engine 1, or the 1st agency's Engine 11?).

    That was a much too rambly way of saying that what may make no sense to us does not automatically make it invalid everywhere.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricHoser View Post
    Resources...
    1 - Engine
    2 - Truck
    3 - Rescue
    4 - Tanker/Tender
    Again, replace the 1,2,3,4 with E,T,R and WT and you'll have an easier way to figure out who is who and far less numbers to deal with.

    As for FDNY being older than the state of California, I always have said- When you turn to insults in a debate, you've lost it regardless or being right or wrong.

    Again, can someone please answer the original question, besides "tradition"? I would like to know the answer as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Again, replace the 1,2,3,4 with E,T,R and WT and you'll have an easier way to figure out who is who and far less numbers to deal with.
    Funny you say that. My current agency's countywide system has done exactly that. "Engine 8-5" is the 8th agency's Engine 5. It works really very well. I was trying to make a case for the all-number system in certain situations in defense of those who have them but it is my mostly worthless opinion that it is usually not the best way to do a countywide system.

    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Again, can someone please answer the original question, besides "tradition"? I would like to know the answer as well.
    I'll also be listening for that.....
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    But since FDNY is older than the state of California - doesn't that make their system the original and correct way?
    We agree on this one!
    Not at all in my opinion. Just because it is "older" doesn't mean it is wiser or the "correct" way of doing it. That my friend is called tradition.

    No matter what you call your vehicles, what numbers and letters you put on them, you have to devise a system that works for you. If calling it "10 truck" vs. a 2169, great! To each his own. Just as long as when I call for 10 engines, I receive 10 pumpers, not "10 engine!"

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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricHoser View Post
    Funny you say that. My current agency's countywide system has done exactly that. "Engine 8-5" is the 8th agency's Engine 5.

    Actually, your agency doesnt do exactly that. Drop the "8" and add the "E" and make it E85.

    Lettering companies within multiple agencies from one PSAP isnt that hard.

    Speaking of tradition and "its always been that way", can you imaging if our military stood by that way of thinking? They would still be on horses marching in face to face and using ball and pawer rifle guns. Something and organization just needs to move forward, regardless of type of service provided.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 10-29-2007 at 02:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Actually, your agency doesnt do exactly that. Drop the "8" and add the "E" and make it E85.
    OK, we're splitting hairs now. Technically, you are correct. My observations on the differences:

    1. Calling it "Engine" (or Medic, Tender, Ladder, etc) makes it fully NIMS-friendly.

    2. "E", "T", "WT" may sound similar over a rough/intermittent/scratchy radio transmission, could be mistaken for each other or a number (3). Having the phonetically different actual words to describe a resource reduces the possibility of miscommunication.

    Everyone's apparatus is numbered precisely according to your system, though. Engine 8-5's changeable placard is indeed E85.

    If I ever get to pass down your way and have a chance to buy you a beer, I am sure we'll have to think of something else to chat about, we've mutually about exhausted the topic, haven't we?
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  20. #40
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    We use the 4-digit numbering for our apparatus in the county. We're not a county department, but have a common dispatch/radio system, common numbering, and lots of mutual aid.

    In our case the first two digits are the district/town, third is the station, and 4th is the resource type/number (1-3 Engine, 4-5 Truck..etc). While the system has its drawbacks it is nice to know where the unit is coming from. I know 3125 is Moorestown's ladder while 2512 is Medford's engine. Going with a sequential numbering by unit type (Engine 10, Truck 51..etc) would require some memorization to know where each unit was located. Is T10 and E10 in the same house? Is there any pattern to the numbering to aid in recollection?

    As was said previously, it all comes down to what you're used to. Operationally I see no difference between calling your apparatus 10 Truck, Truck 10, Truck 3125 as long as you, and everyone you work with knows the system.
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