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    Quote Originally Posted by jerry4184 View Post
    I can't comment on the FDNY test, I don't know, I haven't been keeping up with it, though I thought about taking it next time around.

    I will ask, why limit yourself to "big cities". Some decent sized areas are hiring for decent pay, and they burn just as much as some busy city companies, sometimes more.
    True...im looking for decent pay and a dept. that is busy.

    Rob

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    Camden or Detroit. I would leave NYC for them, and of course Yonkers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    Camden or Detroit. I would leave NYC for them, and of course Yonkers!
    O Yeah Yonkers...i know all about it. Im from NYC i Grew up in NYC i went to school for a year in New Rochelle and a buddy of mine is a vollie for one of the depts. i forgot which one though and he said Yonkers would be amazing lol. But the Question is When are they hiring ?

    As for Camden or Detroit when are they hiring ?

    Rob
    Last edited by eaglesrule1024; 11-08-2007 at 11:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    Camden or Detroit. I would leave NYC for them, and of course Yonkers!
    I dont know....I still belive that, as those of us who were on the job before Sept. 11th,2001....it is "Still the Greatest Job on Earth"

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    So how long into a career does the EMS stigma last? The propationary period? Until he leaves his first House? Promotion to Lt.? A former EMS-guy makes it to Chief, is their going to be Jakes out there questioning his commitment and abilities?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    This old Marine just don't understand the FDNY mind set I guess.
    If a person was able to perform at a lower level or standard and achive the same level of recognition or reward as someone who demonstrated superior performance than them...would you understand it then?

    If I did only 70% as well as you physically during boot camp at Paris Island and only made approximately 70% of the effort required to complete a task...while everyone else gave 100% would you understand then?

    If I shot 32 on the range and you shot 62...should we both recieve Expert ratings?

    Do you understand now?

    So how long into a career does the EMS stigma last? The propationary period? Until he leaves his first House? Promotion to Lt.? A former EMS-guy makes it to Chief, is their going to be Jakes out there questioning his commitment and abilities?
    20 years or until he retires....what difference does it make to you? For someone who claims to have been a Marine...I can't imagine how this is that hard to understand...last time I checked people who look out for themselves and look to take shortcuts or slack when everyone else is working aren't exactly looked well upon by Marines.

    FTM-PTB

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    What makes the grass grow? Blood, Blood, Blood!

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    Default What about Nepotism

    I have to admit, like some others, I'm finding it a bit difficult to follow some of the reasoning on here. I base my opinions on information from 2 good friends on FDNY. One is a Captain with a bit over 20 years in, the other is a firefighter with something like 15 or 16. Both are in different areas. I spoke to them about this issue on e mail as it really hasn't ever been a major problem in some other depts I know. Their answer was that the two biggest problems in recruits are under achieving minorities number 1, and nepotism, son, daughter, nephew, niece, friend of family getting popped to the head of the list through the brass connection and being shepherded through the training system. In some cases they get put into choice stations or positions. Both said that the EMT/Paramedic route has never caused them a problem and in fact they both seem to feel that the experience was beneficial in that they knew the city, had seen some fairly robust action and brought a desire to suceed to the job which outweighed a lot of the above mentioned people. Just so you know, NY or the US certainly isn't alone in the problem of affirmative action. Its sure as hell alive and kicking in Canada and in some European countries.
    Which would you rather have, a paramedic with 6 years on the job in your city or somebodies relative who somes out of a junior college and thinks that driving a fire truck might be neat! Play the cards you are dealt boys and maybe by welcoming these guys in, you might keep a clown out.

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    Wow, 5 pages of this crap.

    I just fail to see the big deal about being hired from the EMS side.
    Some may feel it's a "back-door" way in, but screw em.
    If the City policy says you can do it, and it's a faster way to the job, there's no reason not to.
    Especially if you can score well on the written and physical anyways.
    (if someone is hired/promoted without being able to pass the standards, that would be unfair).
    Why would you want top sit on a list with 10,000 people for 3 years when you can bypass that time by working EMS for awhile?
    And you would be gaining experience in how the fire dept runs, where the stations are,chain of command,etc.

    When I was in the Navy, some people figured out that by taking an extra course, or completing some education, they would get a promotion faster.
    Cheating or being smart?
    Is going to the Chief's Christmas Party ***-kissing, or networking?
    Is volunteering to be on a Mayor's office task-force being a suck-up, or a good way to get ahead?
    Is participating in the Batt Chief's charity fun-run being a little bitch, or is it getting face-time with someone in your chain of command?

    There are many ways to further, or start, a career.
    Calling someone a cheater, or lazy, or dishonest because they used a different path to their desired career is ridiculous.

    Get hired,show up every day with a good attitude, work hard, and amazingly any "stigma" will be gone quickly.
    The ones that can't let it go have their own issues.
    They're usually the ones that can barely do the job anyways, bitch about anyone that gets promoted above them, are always complaining about something, and are usually a waste of space.
    Last edited by mitllesmertz1; 11-10-2007 at 12:59 PM.

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    Taking an extra class to get promoted faster, and being a paramedic, so that whent he time comes you can be promoted to firefighter, a completely differnet profession is not the same thing.

    It would be like me being in the navy, being a corpsman, and taking that class. Then after getting that class, rather being promoted as a medical corpsman to a higher pay grade in that job, they make me an aircraft mechanic, despite not being the best at being an aircraft mechanic. Better aircraft mechanics would get passed over for promotion, because someone with a different job, and lower test scores got promoted above them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jerry4184 View Post
    Taking an extra class to get promoted faster, and being a paramedic, so that when he time comes you can be promoted to firefighter, a completely different profession is not the same thing.
    question: I can apply to ABC department and have a 1 in 500 change of getting hired. Or, I can apply to ABC department, after getting my paramedic cert, and have a 1 in 50 chance of getting hired.

    by the logic applied here, wouldn't I be cheating by getting my paramedic cert in order to increase my chances of getting hired?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Here's the thing I don't understand: Call me selfish, but if you are already on the job, and have been for any amount of time, why would you care how other people got on the job? If, by being involved in the EMS side of things, you were able to bypass any part of the academy, yes, I believe that would be unfair, but from my understanding, former EMS personnel go through the exact same academy as everyone else. Maybe I just don't understand the mentality, but as others before me have said, wouldn't you rather work beside someone who has some experience in the city, etc.?

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    What is the physical test for FDNY? Isn't it just the CPAT? That's a pass/fail exam anyway.

    Also, after reading these replies I thought of something else. Everyone has the chance to go the EMS route and make it easier to get on. So it can't be cheating when anyone can legally do it. If they want it just as bad, then the open test people should spend a few years in EMS as well.

    This is actually a pretty decent debate. There are some good points made from both sides.

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    I like how people who have no idea what they are talking about chime in.

    And people from across the nation...
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    I like how people who have no idea what they are talking about chime in.

    And people from across the nation...
    Or maybe people are just trying to better understand the varying points of view, so they can take part in an interesting discussion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by storckthedork View Post
    Or maybe people are just trying to better understand the varying points of view, so they can take part in an interesting discussion...
    before you get your knickers in a twist, ask yourself, was my post
    Facetious. Pronunciation[fuh-see-shuhs]
    –adjective
    1. not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
    2..amusing; humorous.
    3. lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person.
    read much?

    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.
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    Didnt the FDNY switch over to the CPAT in June ?

    http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/Health-and-Fitness/The-FDNY-Goes-With-CPAT/11$52156

    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    read much?

    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.
    Easy there Ace... No need to get aggresive

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    Quote Originally Posted by storckthedork View Post
    Easy there Ace... No need to get aggresive
    Why not, Princess?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Why not, Princess?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    If a person was able to perform at a lower level or standard and achive the same level of recognition or reward as someone who demonstrated superior performance than them...would you understand it then?

    If I did only 70% as well as you physically during boot camp at Paris Island and only made approximately 70% of the effort required to complete a task...while everyone else gave 100% would you understand then?

    If I shot 32 on the range and you shot 62...should we both recieve Expert ratings?

    Do you understand now?
    You don't have to shoot expert to get off of Parris Island with the title of Marine, you just have to qualify as a Marksman. You don't have to have a 300 PFT to graduate either, just have to do three pull ups, 50 crunches in two minutes and three mile run in under 28 minutes, and you still earn the title Marine. I got my 300 PFT, but I knew guys who got the low 200's and were admittedly better Marines than I when it came to many other things.



    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    20 years or until he retires....what difference does it make to you? For someone who claims to have been a Marine...I can't imagine how this is that hard to understand...last time I checked people who look out for themselves and look to take shortcuts or slack when everyone else is working aren't exactly looked well upon by Marines.

    FTM-PTB
    There used to be programs for enlisted Marines to get Commissions with out earning a degree or even going to OCS. Did they take short cuts to Commisions?


    To enlist, the Marines don't force anyone to compete by the ASVAB score, either you score high enough or you don't, and then they assign you, or allow you to pick among, specialties that the test says you are smart enough to do. Once in you don't need as high of a score to make a lateral move into some of those jobs. No one judges how someone got into the MOS if once in the field they prove themselves to be competant, which most do but some don't. I know you all have many guys that go throught the test, make it through the academy, but turn out to be ***** birds out on the job, while you have former EMT's that end up great brave firefighters. I just don't see why you judge them for how they got on the job over how they do on the job.

    Crap, until going before the promotion board to make Gunny, half the Staff Sgt.'s in the Suck have spent their career up to that point looking out for themselves, same goes for half the LtCol's competeing for the full Bird.

    Where I went to college, folks could take one class a semester without going through the competative application process of SAT's/minimum GPA/essays/etc. Once they had completed 24 credits with a 3.0 GPA or better they could enter full time, you could say that is short circuting the process, I say it is working your way in rather than testing your way in.

    So again why do you judge a person's entry process more than the job they do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I have to admit, like some others, I'm finding it a bit difficult to follow some of the reasoning on here. I base my opinions on information from 2 good friends on FDNY. One is a Captain with a bit over 20 years in, the other is a firefighter with something like 15 or 16. Both are in different areas. I spoke to them about this issue on e mail as it really hasn't ever been a major problem in some other depts I know. Their answer was that the two biggest problems in recruits are under achieving minorities number 1, and nepotism, son, daughter, nephew, niece, friend of family getting popped to the head of the list through the brass connection and being shepherded through the training system. In some cases they get put into choice stations or positions. Both said that the EMT/Paramedic route has never caused them a problem and in fact they both seem to feel that the experience was beneficial in that they knew the city, had seen some fairly robust action and brought a desire to suceed to the job which outweighed a lot of the above mentioned people. Just so you know, NY or the US certainly isn't alone in the problem of affirmative action. Its sure as hell alive and kicking in Canada and in some European countries.
    Which would you rather have, a paramedic with 6 years on the job in your city or somebodies relative who somes out of a junior college and thinks that driving a fire truck might be neat! Play the cards you are dealt boys and maybe by welcoming these guys in, you might keep a clown out.
    Your two friends are FDNY firefighters??? Because they are misinformed. There is absolutly no way, none at all that anyone can get "popped" to the head of the list because of family connections.....not even the Chief of Departments son. Thats part of the point we are making.....getting "on the job" here has nothing to do (for now) with politics, it is based on raw score, and has been this way since the Civil Service laws were written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglesrule1024 View Post
    Didnt the FDNY switch over to the CPAT in June ?

    http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/Health-and-Fitness/The-FDNY-Goes-With-CPAT/11$52156

    Rob

    The whole C-PAT craze started after many Chiefs from out-of-town fire departments came to NYC (and a few other major cities) to see the agility test, so they could base C-Pat on it (I personally witnessed them walking through). The agility I took in the early 1990's is what many now call the C-PAT, a repackaged version of our agility.

    As for the arguements about whether the "backdoor" stigma is fair or unfair, its a non-issue....the Brothers in the firehouse will decide for themselves, and the current feeling in the FDNY firehouses (the only ones who matter in this debate) is it is a Square Rooter move. Does it mean he'll be a bad firefighter? obviously not, but most guy will always feel that the individual was afraid to compete on an open competitve exam, and that the person will always take short cuts to make things work out in his favor, and around here,at least... character and reputation is everthing. Fair or un-fair, thats the way it is, at least around here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    The whole C-PAT craze started after many Chiefs from out-of-town fire departments came to NYC (and a few other major cities) to see the agility test, so they could base C-Pat on it (I personally witnessed them walking through). The agility I took in the early 1990's is what many now call the C-PAT, a repackaged version of our agility.

    As for the arguements about whether the "backdoor" stigma is fair or unfair, its a non-issue....the Brothers in the firehouse will decide for themselves, and the current feeling in the FDNY firehouses (the only ones who matter in this debate) is it is a Square Rooter move. Does it mean he'll be a bad firefighter? obviously not, but most guy will always feel that the individual was afraid to compete on an open competitve exam, and that the person will always take short cuts to make things work out in his favor, and around here,at least... character and reputation is everthing. Fair or un-fair, thats the way it is, at least around here.
    See i both Agree and Disagree.

    I agree you shouldnt take the short cut because like you said if you short cut one thing what else will this person short cut. As you also stated Character and Reputation is HUGE if you dont have a good reputation your going to get eatin up and wont last long.

    I disagree because when is the next test ? 2 to 5yrs away ? If you do go the EMS Way it also shows you want it bad enough you will do anything to be a FDNY Firefighter.

    BTW Matt i see your in BK..you know the guys at Eng. 201 ?

    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    You don't have to shoot expert to get off of Parris Island with the title of Marine, you just have to qualify as a Marksman. You don't have to have a 300 PFT to graduate either, just have to do three pull ups, 50 crunches in two minutes and three mile run in under 28 minutes, and you still earn the title Marine. I got my 300 PFT, but I knew guys who got the low 200's and were admittedly better Marines than I when it came to many other things.
    FFFRED may correct me if I'm wrong here, but the issue isn't with the title of Marine. Everyone that comes out, is a Marine. YOu don't have to shoot expert to be a Marine. That's not the argument. If Fred shoots a 32, and you shoot a 62, why should Fred be given the title Marksman? He wouldn't, he simply didn't score as high. That's the problem he was illustrating with the EMS route. People who didn't outscore the top people, were being given preference, over the top people. The Marksmen, were the ones who couldn't hit the target all the time.

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