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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFDHoseCo3CGR View Post
    Obviously its been a few years since the last post on this topic but I had one question. How is it fair for people with family in the department to get on the FDNY "easier" but no fair for FDNY EMS to take the promotional exam?

    Oh thats right, its not fair but its accepted so why can't people just accept EMS taking the promotion!?

    What are you talking about?

    I hope you aren't refering to the legacy credit.

    FTM-PTB

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    How exactly is it easier for someone with family on the job to get on??? Please explain! Nothing could be further from the truth! Even the Chief of Department cannot get his kid bumped up list.Your test score determines your list number, and you are hired when they reach your list number.Learn about what you're talking about before you post on here!
    Last edited by MattyJ; 03-28-2009 at 01:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    Dont be a moron. Go get a job somewhere out West where they actually pay you. Forget about moving here from WI to get a maybe. If I could do it all over again I would be out West or in Florida where you can buy a house and enjoy yourself .

    As I live and work on the West Coast, I've always wondered the same thing. Yeah, I'd like all the fires. But long-term comfort, prosperity, quality of life, safety, etc. would bring me back here, where we have a bunch of guys escaping the midwest weather and the East Coast uh, conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MFDHoseCo3CGR View Post
    Obviously its been a few years since the last post on this topic but I had one question. How is it fair for people with family in the department to get on the FDNY "easier" but no fair for FDNY EMS to take the promotional exam?

    Oh thats right, its not fair but its accepted so why can't people just accept EMS taking the promotion!?
    Not very good at math are you?
    1/2/08 and 3/28/09 is NOT a "few years".

    Now what are you talking about?
    You sound...bitter.

  5. #180
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    I think that being FDNY EMS first is acceptable. I plan on doing it myself. I also think going the traditional way is acceptable too. Either way, its fine. I have talked to FDNY guys, both EMS and Fire (recently). And 99.9% of them I talked to said the backdoor way and the people who go backdoor are accepted in the FDNY just as someone who went the traditional way. They said that it shows dedication and commitment to joining FDNY Fire. A quote from an acutual FDNY Firefighter I talked to, "If someone is willing to give up 1-4 years of their life as an FDNY EMS member, they should be rewarded with being eligible to join FDNY Fire faster. Whether that means hauling lazy drunks to the hospital or getting sh*t on by Firefighters, they put up with it, they should be rewarded for it."

    Now I'm not saying the traditional way is bad, that is fine. But we shouldn't look down on and critizise the people who go the EMS route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffbam24 View Post
    Not very good at math are you?
    1/2/08 and 3/28/09 is NOT a "few years".

    Now what are you talking about?
    You sound...bitter.

    Hey give me a break. I hadn't read the entire thread when I posted. I have updated my post to be more specific.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MFDHoseCo3CGR View Post
    How is it fair for people with family in the department to get on the job with FDNY "easier" but not fair for FDNY EMS to take the promotional exam? To clarify, I am not referring to any situation where someone who lost a loved one gets a few extra points on the test, and I apologize for not being clear. I am talking about the people who get hired because they have a living family member on the job. And you all know someone on the job who only got hired because of his/her family ties and not because of test scores. We've all heard "It's all about who you know" before. Personally I think that is more of a back door approach. I also want to point out that you can't just get hired by EMS and take the promotional exam. You have to wait and work EMS first. In the time you wait until you can test you will deal with so much BS and far worse pay. I'm sorry but I do not see dealing with all that EMS deals with as being an easy way on the job.

    What the F*ck are you talking about? This does not happen in NYC. Educate yourself on how civil service hiring works and who administers exams in this city. You are extremely ignorant and still don't get it.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    What the F*ck are you talking about? This does not happen in NYC. Educate yourself on how civil service hiring works and who administers exams in this city. You are extremely ignorant and still don't get it.

    FTM-PTB
    He wont answer, we asked him when he first made that post weeks ago.

    I love how people think they are entitled to a job because they put up with the EMS BS....pass the same test we passed, and you are entitled. weird.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    So I'm just curious..
    The Open Competitive guys obviously attend a rigorous physical training at the academy..

    So the EMTs - Medics who promote do not attend this same training?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rds33hfd View Post
    So I'm just curious..
    The Open Competitive guys obviously attend a rigorous physical training at the academy..

    So the EMTs - Medics who promote do not attend this same training?
    That is not what the issue is with the circumvention of civil service hiring by using "promotional" exams.

    It was intended to simply allow those who are dumber and weaker the ability to jump to the top of the list (in effect not in reality).

    They fail to demonstrate superior merit and fitness and then are carried along and as long as they don't willingly give up during the accademy they are rarely if ever demoted....usualy coinciding with being a member of certian protected classes.

    They get hired before those who are more intelligent, competent and physically fit and thus prepared and deserving of an appointment to the fire department.

    Don't be so naive to why it is used and why it exists.

    Hopefully April 22nd is the begining of the end for such BS.

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    I understand where the FDNY guys are coming from a bit better now. I started this thread over a year ago thinking that it would only show how bad I wanted the job if I did EMS first. And I'm sure that FDNY guys on here understand where most of you were coming from, but when you get put on the other side, some other things become clearer.

    The reason that this makes more sense to me now is because I was in a similar situation myself with the DCFD. I took the open competitive exam and placed well. I will be in the first class off of the list starting in a little over a week. However, it was at my medical and psych and talked to some medics. They went through there process in about 1/3 of the time that it took me. They took the same written, but only have to pass it and they didn't have to take the psych part because too many would fail. Then they were pushed through the process and bumped ahead of me for the academy. I got lucky and made it in anyway, but I don't know by how much.

    I have nothing against the medics. They took advantage of something that was there and that's very smart of them. They did go through they extra schooling and deserve extra things. However, I don't want to be a medic. So it sucks that there was nothing I could do to help my chances. I'm not bitter at all and have already made friends with some of the medics that will be in my class. However, it does make me understand a bit better where the FDNY guys are coming from.

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    IF someone does choose to go that route.....and manages to make it onto the Fire side....if you keep your mouth shut and do the jobs that are expected of EVERY OTHER PROBY, you will be fine and fit in just like everyone else.

    The problems begin when we have *ssholes who think like some uninformed posters here....that once you deal with the BS that is FDNY EMS, you are somehow entitled to our job. That stupid attitude infests too many individuals that come over from EMS, and it carries over into how they perform in the firehouse as well as on the fireground.

    Not to mention the basic fact that the loophole allows out of shape and less intelligent candidates to be hired well before more qualified candidates. We arent talking 1 or 2 points here, we are talking FAILING events on the physical, and writing a 70-75 on a written test that most semi-intelligent HS freshmen could pass. There is a simple reason why this loophole even exists, but of course I wouldnt expect those with their chip on their shoulders to understand any of this.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    That is not what the issue is with the circumvention of civil service hiring by using "promotional" exams.

    It was intended to simply allow those who are dumber and weaker the ability to jump to the top of the list (in effect not in reality).

    They fail to demonstrate superior merit and fitness and then are carried along and as long as they don't willingly give up during the accademy they are rarely if ever demoted....usualy coinciding with being a member of certian protected classes.

    They get hired before those who are more intelligent, competent and physically fit and thus prepared and deserving of an appointment to the fire department.

    Don't be so naive to why it is used and why it exists.

    Hopefully April 22nd is the begining of the end for such BS.

    www.newhaven20.com

    FTM-PTB
    I can totally agree with you on the physical attributes, but you mentioned about the dumb one's and I can honestly argue that EMS is equal if not more mentally challenging..

    My dept in a combination dept with rotations. one day on the box, one day on the engine, and if there's a truck, one day there as well... the rotation depends on how big the house is. some houses have 2 boxes or a box/squad/medic... EMT-B ride the box. Paramedics are on the squads/medics.

    EMT-B is probably equal with fire science/ops but as for paramedics, well let's just say there's no such thing as a dumb paramedic.

    so FDNY is stopping the promotional exams April 22? Also, obviously it's looked down from guys coming to the job from EMS but what about guys that aren't native to the city/state? just curious...
    Last edited by rds33hfd; 04-20-2009 at 01:14 AM.

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    no such thing as a dumb paramedic?


    There's plenty of them...
    The Box. You opened it. We Came...

    "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

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    Quote Originally Posted by rds33hfd View Post
    I can totally agree with you on the physical attributes, but you mentioned about the dumb one's and I can honestly argue that EMS is equal if not more mentally challenging.. EMT-B is probably equal with fire science/ops but as for paramedics, well let's just say there's no such thing as a dumb paramedic.
    Lets just say few of you understand what we are discussing here. This is about what formerly was competitive civil service hiring standards that have been gerrymandered to placate racist and biggoted politicians and groups like the vulcan society who want to increase their membership at any cost.

    There is a decades old history of attempts at lowering the standards so as to increase the porportion of minorities (racial and gender) in getting hired onto this job regardless of civil service exams intended to hire objectively regardless of politics or patronage.

    They insult the very people they purport to represent claiming they aren't capable of preparing for and passing a rather straightforward exam which seeks to reward those most capable and prepared for this line of work.

    so FDNY is stopping the promotional exams April 22? Also, obviously it's looked down from guys coming to the job from EMS but what about guys that aren't native to the city/state? just curious...
    I'll hold your hand into the discussion. There is a very important case that is going before the Supreme court of the US of A on that day that has the potential on having a HUGE effect on future hiring and promotional exams given in civil service settings.

    It has nothing to do with your current employment...it has everything to do with standing with racists and validating their method of gaming the system to benefit certain groups over other groups.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- I know plenty of "dumb" medics and EMTs. And the skills and knowledge that apply to work in health career fields don't always translate to blue collar employment such as firefighting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    no such thing as a dumb paramedic?


    There's plenty of them...
    JHR, that statement can cover a lot of different careers in emergency services, Medical, Fire. and Police.

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    You know what, come to think of it... I do know of a few guys who are paramedics and made me wonder how??... but our med dir never approved them in this city.. I guess that's what I was basing it off of. so I stand corrected.. But I don't concider myself dumb but I don't think I could pass the paramedic NR.. maybe that's has to do with a little not wanting to also..

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    I am currently an FDNY Fireman, who has prior city service as an FDNY EMT. I was hired off of the open cometitetive list, as there was no promotional exam offered during my short (1.5 years) career as an EMT, though it was almost impossible to convince instructors at the Rock and guys in the house I was assigned to that I was an open competitive candidate. Everybody assumed I was a promo and there is for better or worse a stigma attached to that label. My reasons for taking the job in EMS were...

    1. I needed a job
    2. I was kind of buffy...I had an offer from NYPD, and I also had a hook in a few building trade unions, but I wasnt really interested in that kind of work. For my 24 year old self it sounded more fun to ride around NYC in an ambulance all day.

    FDNY EMS is a job that could be fun, but through mismangement and poor funding, pretty much all the fun is sucked right out of it. There are many good people that work there, but many are borderline perps. Consider somedays you may be sharing an ambulance cab for 16 hours with someone who shares the same personality and hygiene habits as the mutants you are picking up in the projects and shelters. You can also be disciplined for the unproffesional and negligent shenigans they engage in on jobs. It isnt hard to end up with BITS charges(kind of like internal affairs for FDNY) or restriction through no fault of your own, just because your partner is incompetent. Though I take alot of pride in the months I spent there and I feel I was able to make a difference and save lives, I think it would have been smarter to have gone another route, maybe I should have went to the building trades and gotten an NYC address. Then again in todays hiring climate, combined with the ridiculous recent test, EMS may be the closest thing to a sure fire way of getting on the job.

    If you do take the EMS route, remember, especially with the more senior guys there is somewhat of a stigma attached to that label. You have to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and WORK HARD, possibly harder than the other probies, both in the academy and in the firehouse. I worked my *** off to get where I am today and feel I am well liked and respected in the firehouse by everyone right up to the senior men and officers. Funny story after I was off probation and one of the guys approached me, and said "We thought you were gonna be a sh-t bag because you were from EMS but you turned out to be one of the best proby's we had in years." I didn't know whether to be insulted or flattered. I decided to take it as a compliment, I was helping to break the stereotype of all EMS guys being a bunch of skells.

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStreets View Post
    I am currently an FDNY Fireman, who has prior city service as an FDNY EMT. I was hired off of the open cometitetive list, as there was no promotional exam offered during my short (1.5 years) career as an EMT, though it was almost impossible to convince instructors at the Rock and guys in the house I was assigned to that I was an open competitive candidate. Everybody assumed I was a promo and there is for better or worse a stigma attached to that label. My reasons for taking the job in EMS were...

    1. I needed a job
    2. I was kind of buffy...I had an offer from NYPD, and I also had a hook in a few building trade unions, but I wasnt really interested in that kind of work. For my 24 year old self it sounded more fun to ride around NYC in an ambulance all day.

    FDNY EMS is a job that could be fun, but through mismangement and poor funding, pretty much all the fun is sucked right out of it. There are many good people that work there, but many are borderline perps. Consider somedays you may be sharing an ambulance cab for 16 hours with someone who shares the same personality and hygiene habits as the mutants you are picking up in the projects and shelters. You can also be disciplined for the unproffesional and negligent shenigans they engage in on jobs. It isnt hard to end up with BITS charges(kind of like internal affairs for FDNY) or restriction through no fault of your own, just because your partner is incompetent. Though I take alot of pride in the months I spent there and I feel I was able to make a difference and save lives, I think it would have been smarter to have gone another route, maybe I should have went to the building trades and gotten an NYC address. Then again in todays hiring climate, combined with the ridiculous recent test, EMS may be the closest thing to a sure fire way of getting on the job.

    If you do take the EMS route, remember, especially with the more senior guys there is somewhat of a stigma attached to that label. You have to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and WORK HARD, possibly harder than the other probies, both in the academy and in the firehouse. I worked my *** off to get where I am today and feel I am well liked and respected in the firehouse by everyone right up to the senior men and officers. Funny story after I was off probation and one of the guys approached me, and said "We thought you were gonna be a sh-t bag because you were from EMS but you turned out to be one of the best proby's we had in years." I didn't know whether to be insulted or flattered. I decided to take it as a compliment, I was helping to break the stereotype of all EMS guys being a bunch of skells.
    I'm glad to hear this, as I myself may be using the EMS Promo as an option. I hear a lot of crap about the EMS Promo guys and how they think their hot sh-t because they have been an EMT for some odd years and think they shouldn't have to do probie work. But then I hear stuff like this from guys like you who say as long as you keep your mouth shut, do what you are told, and don't come into the firehouse with the EMS Promo mentality, you will be just fine. So this is good to hear and re-assure me it's not a bad option.
    My other option is joining the Military right after High School, and when the FF Exam is given, apply for it, and once I get my card in the mail saying I'm ready to take the test, call in and say I am unable to take the test due to the fact that I am in the Military. If you call in prior to the exam saying you cannot take it, they will put you on a "holding list". Then once your contract for the Military is up, you call FDNY HQ back and tell them you were unable to take the test before. They HAVE to, I repeat, HAVE to give you the test whenever you are able to make it. Then they also have to give you the psych, physical, medical, etc. and put you in the next Probie Class!
    I heard this from a FDNY FF, this is true. Also prior Military experience will give me/you in shape, +5 points on the exam, and get you ready for the academy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDNY73 View Post
    I'm glad to hear this, as I myself may be using the EMS Promo as an option. I hear a lot of crap about the EMS Promo guys and how they think their hot sh-t because they have been an EMT for some odd years and think they shouldn't have to do probie work. But then I hear stuff like this from guys like you who say as long as you keep your mouth shut, do what you are told, and don't come into the firehouse with the EMS Promo mentality, you will be just fine. So this is good to hear and re-assure me it's not a bad option.
    My other option is joining the Military right after High School, and when the FF Exam is given, apply for it, and once I get my card in the mail saying I'm ready to take the test, call in and say I am unable to take the test due to the fact that I am in the Military. If you call in prior to the exam saying you cannot take it, they will put you on a "holding list". Then once your contract for the Military is up, you call FDNY HQ back and tell them you were unable to take the test before. They HAVE to, I repeat, HAVE to give you the test whenever you are able to make it. Then they also have to give you the psych, physical, medical, etc. and put you in the next Probie Class!
    I heard this from a FDNY FF, this is true. Also prior Military experience will give me/you in shape, +5 points on the exam, and get you ready for the academy!
    You are not even out of H.S.? WTF are you doing even contemplating any of this? You are putting the cart far ahead of your horse. You don't even have the experience to join this in a philosophical manner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    You are not even out of H.S.? WTF are you doing even contemplating any of this? You are putting the cart far ahead of your horse. You don't even have the experience to join this in a philosophical manner.
    I have to make this big decision sometime in the next year.

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    My interest in FDNY hiring and promotional policies is basically nil. I read this thread for the entertainment value. But one thing I will say:

    No such thing as a dumb paramedic...sweet Jesus.

    Any number of very dumb people can make it through an 18 month, community college level program.

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    A legtimate question.

    From what I have read both here and other places, FDNY supression and FDNY EMS are basically 2 completly seperate organizations that basically shares the same FDNY umbrella.

    Wage scales are different, No shared stations. No shared supervisors. Seperate training structures. Separate hiring structures. Basically nothing in common. Guys can cross over to fire from EMS but are not accepted easily by the fire side.

    Is that perception correct?

    And it doesn't seem to work as one side has dislike and almost distain for the other.

    Why is it not more integrated?

    I know other large cities like Phoenix, LA City, Dallas, Miami, Seattle and even Chicago have much more closely integrated systems where there are shared stations, common supervisors and common training structures. In some places the medics are also firefighters that are assigned to the buses and have fireground responsibilities if there are no patients.

    That is the case locally in Shreveport and Bossier City. EMS is trained at the training center by fire department instructors (or are sent to the local community college for paramedic level certification) who do the EMS training as well and they operate from fire stations under the command of the BC. There are EMS shift supervisors but they do not have command functions on the fireground or emergency scene except under the BC as a medical sector supervisor.

    For the NY guys, why does FDNY use this seemingly completely separate structure for EMS

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    FDNY EMS and NYC EMS were originally two seperate entities in the past. FDNY and EMS merged, under the FDNY banner. From what I understand, neither side wanted to be assosciated with the other, and were perfectly happy with their own identities. From what I've been told, and observed personally, FDNY guys hold EMS workers in poor regard, and don't want them wearing the FDNY patch. EMS workers complain of gross mismanagement and poor compensation/working conditions since the merger. I'm not, nor have ever been employed by the city while I was in NY. I worked for a hospital based NYC 911 EMS provider. I have family that became disenchanted with EMS after the merger, and left, along with many other quality personnel, to work EMS at area hospitals for excellent pay/benefits/prestige. I know former co-workers, and friends outside of work, who are FDNY fireman. If what I've said is inaccurate, please correct me.

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    I was aware that they were two separate agencies up to a few years ago.

    I also understand that the fire department is the one that pursued the merger.

    That is why I do not understand why they are still operating as separate entities rather than a fully integrated operation like in large cities such as Chicago, LA, Dallas, Phoenix and so on.

    It seems like operations such as training and admin could be merged, which would save money and quarters could be shared.

    Not being critical. Just wondering why the system is still pretty much as it was ... and still is.

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