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Thread: Scene of the Accident

  1. #1
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    Default Scene of the Accident

    I know there is a lot of people who read these forums so I am going to throw a tip out there. If you get the chance to take the Scene of the Accident, Inc. Train-the-Trainer course, take it. Its worth your time. If anyone was at the Forsyth, GA class, give me your feedback.

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    NOT WORTH MY TIME. I've been to 2 extrication classes with Todd Hoffman and Scene of the Accident. Both classes were hours and hours of sitting in class following along through a big book as the instructor read everything to us. Then we were promised hands-on with NEW cars, in both situations it was the same old cars to cut on. I will not be recommending this class any longer. Also...does Scene of the Accident still approve cutting through Hybrid high voltage cables? It's still on their website as a safe operation.

  3. #3
    Todd Hoffman

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    First of all I want to apologize if you did not receive what you were promissed. I wish you would have taken a moment to say something in class or taken time to express your concerns to me via email or phone. I do have to wonder why you came to the class 2 times if you were so disapointed?

    Second, at no time do I ever recommend or endorse cutting through the high voltage cables on the hybrid either in person or on my web site. In fact we talk in length in class about the high voltage cable and safety concerns. The video on my website shows how the safety system is set up to shut down the high voltage when it is grounded out such as when it is cut with a metal object such as a cutting tool. We never recommend this procedure.

    As for new cars being promissed, here is what we promise in our information packet: "The third day of this event will feature Hands-On Extrication Training. All of the latest in construction materials, restraints and designs will be discussed to allow you to practice the new procedures required to overcome these new and additional challenges." There are times when we have late model cars to cut but there are also times when newer cars are not available.

    Again I apologize for not delivering what you expected and invite you to email me and let me know what we can do to improve our class.

    todd@sceneoftheaccident.org
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  4. #4
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    Default Hold on a minute.

    I've been to three of Mr. Hoffman's Classes and continue to learn something new every time. Apparently you weren't paying attention during class. Maybe you should pay a little more attention next time and not just sit there waiting to cut. Give em hell Todd. I fully endorse Scene of the accident.
    Thanks for a great class.
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  5. #5
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    Totally agree. The info is great.
    However, paying such a price for info that is offered for free from so many other sources is such a waste of assets. I have seen way to many small departments, and even the large ones, spend thousands to send members to one of these read along sessions to get the info we got from much more economical means such as Mid South Rescue and Holmatro. I went to Lee's three day school last year for $75 and got all the class room, plus two days of hands on with every brand of tool imaginable.
    For seven years in a row a local department has hosted a New Vehicle Anatomy class put on by a Holmatro rep, not a sales guy, but a factory guy, for free. I was shocked the first time I saw SOTA and saw the same slides being used for $300 per student. One guy with me questioned them when the presenter indicated that he took some of the photos and created some of the airbag tests and he recanted stating that he was referring to the slide and not the actual photo.
    SOTA has lost a lot of credibility with many places and true training entities.

    Let's keep the non profit in non profit training.

  6. #6
    Todd Hoffman

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    All of the information we collect at Scene Of The Accident is shared with others. We use information and photos from numerous sources. Ron Moore and Lee Junkins are two of the many resources for materials we use to provide the most accurate and up-to-date information available in our programs. We also spend a lot of time researching and developing our own information which we in turn share with others. We also develop and provide numerous programs that are used by others all across the country, so there are many things in our courses that you will see in other classes that you attend.

    We do not have any sponsors for our classes because we do not allow any sales or advertising in our classes or on our website. Because of this the cost to print our 1000 page instructor manual, duplicate our DVD, provide lunch each day, procure vehicles to cut, set-up class sites, travel to and from each location and continue to provide updated information through our website is passed on to the student.

    Our classes are in a train-the-trainer format and designed to reduce the cost of training to your department by providing you with all of the materials needed to continually update the members of your department and surrounding departments. One person attends our class and in turn provides continuing updated training to hundreds in their area.

    We are a non-profit organization and none of our directors, including myself, take any salary from the organization. 100% of all money we receive goes back into improving the quality and content of our programs.

    Before I started this non-profit venture I had a new Mercedes CL65 and a new Mercedes SL55. I sold both vehicles to start Scene Of The Accident and get it off the ground. I now drive an old Pick-up truck and the non-profit has a 2006 Chevy Van with trailer, so please do not try to tell me about the non-profit in nonprofit training.

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    I have commented once before about being so defensive....

    I rode to lunch with you two years ago in your new mercedes, and last year went to your class, you were driving the old truck, a Lincoln version of the supercrew if I remember.
    Nice house too, all on no salary. None of my business I guess. As long as the tax man is happy, right.
    Who cares I guess, most televangelists are Non Profit, I think they call it a stipend.
    What ever it takes to get the info out, just a shame money that could be spent on equipment is used to get a book and cd.

  8. #8
    Todd Hoffman

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    I would have hoped that there would not be a ned to respond but I guess you have a personal mission to make me out to be a thief and a liar. I still teach many courses to the automotive industry and the insurance industry which pay me well. I also lecture at many events cross the country which also pays me well. I run a technical support group for the automotive industry which also pays me well. My group of continuing education classes for Texas Insurance Adjusters also pays me well. My pickup is a 2002 Lincoln Blackwood with 165,000 miles on it and my house is far from a mansion. I am not claiming poverty, only trying to demonstrate the level of committment I have made to bring updated training to the fire service.

    The books for all non-profit organizations are open for anyones review. You will see that no money from Scene Of The Accident is spent on anything other than developing and presenting classes. I do not take 1 penny from the funds collected by Scene Of The Accident.

    If it is so inexpensive and easy to put together a simple book and CD then why are you sitting home complaining about others rather than doing something to help your fellow firefighters? If you can tell me where to get the information we provide at no cost I will stop doing classes today and link to all of this free information on my website.

    For all of you that have signed on to this forum for credible information I apologize for subjecting you to this "****in contest" and promise that this is my final post.
    Last edited by SOTA4311; 11-08-2007 at 10:47 AM.

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    Why do you have such a "hard on" for Todd? The guy gives you what he says he will give you. You know up front how much the class is... if you don't agree.. don't go.

    Your choice... but lighten up some and don't be so "offensive" while telling him not to be so "defensive".

    He's got a pretty good thing... I beleive you are most upset because he beat you to it... or taught you something you didn't already know (hard to believe as it is) or is it that he isn't carrying Holmatro tools...

  10. #10
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    I don't think that Todd represents or endorses any brand of tools.
    I am pretty plain spoken and clear on my objections. The cost of the class, for material that is available for and offered for much less, or even free. The misleading statements of credentials I have witnessed in his presentations, notice I said misleading, not untruthful. There is a difference.
    Again, as stated before, I liken it to a televangelist vs. the Sunday preacher. Same info, just more smoke and mirrors to peak the interest of the sheep. I do not like to see education turned into something that puts a bad taste in the mouths of Chiefs. The firefighters that attend the class don't care what it costs, and take away valuable knowledge. The Chief at the station gets back a notebook and a powerpoint cd, and has spent a ton of department money for it. I have spoken with many that have attended and many chiefs that have sent personnel. I am sincere and completely lacking malice in those statements. Very few actually come out of an 8 or 12 hour course with the ability to present a class. So the train the trainer angle is hogwash.
    The chiefs are then skeptical when it comes around for training next time, so valuable courses are denied, or the money has already been spent.
    There are way too many $50, $25 or even free classes giving the same info, maybe not a notebook or cd, but the same info.

    It is not a mission against any one person or organization.
    I believe I do my part. I present a classroom and field training exercise that was put together with the help of Holmatro and Hurst. I am not paid for it. I do it in three states at local schools and fire departments. I am credentialed in those states as an instructor and the students receive credit for the hours. The departments pay me and many others like me with a bar b que lunch and a cold drink afterward. I have made many lifelong friends during the events, many of which are annual events. There are tons like me out there, and have been for 30 years. A few of us keep up to date on new car technology, a few are meat and potatoes extrication guys. We do it for love of the service, and to help a brother out.

    It is true, as you say someone beat me to it. Not that he beat me to it, but that he and others like him are taking the money from the truck funds, the equipment budgets and the training budgets of small departments who just don't know any better. Yes, I am sure it costs a lot to travel across the country, but truth be told, there are folks across the country who do the same as I do. Why not focus your efforts on your local departments, save your money, and let the training be done regionally.

    Again, the the televangelists travel the country delivering the same sermon the local guy does. They collect millions for travel costs, when really that money could be used for a lot more valuable things.

    Your right Todd, lets quit ****in'. Let's also help stop Fire Departments from ****in' valuable funding away.
    Last edited by hrtrescue10; 11-09-2007 at 11:54 PM.

  11. #11

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    Default i need help

    i am a student of firefighters faculty in Romania and now i am in the last year and i need to do a project about cxar extrication from lakes and holes, abysses .... i need some rescue tehniques .... movies...anything can help me.
    Thank you aniway!

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    Default

    I'm going to give this a bump to see if there's anyone else out there with constructive opinions on SOTA T-t-T classes. There's one coming up locally and I'm tempted to put in for my department to send me. However, $450 is a lot of money for our department, and at $3.40/gallon (for now at least) for fuel, it'd cost me a bit to drive the hour-or-so to the class location.

    While I'm a certified vehicle rescue instructor through the University of Missouri, I'm always looking for more good info and a good class.

  13. #13
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    Two of us took the Hudson NH. class and it was worth the money to our dept.
    If you are a fire Instructor already then you will be able to use differant sections of there program with what you are doing now.
    If you only learn doing hands on then stay home and send someone else.

  14. #14
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    Default S.o.t.a.

    I also attended the Hudson NH class-at my own expense-and came away with a lot of knowledge I didn't have before I went. I also met a great bunch of guys that I will be able to network with in the future. I also met a few that wasted their departments money by taking this class. The firefighter next to me spent most of the second day of class picking out a new shiny pickup from Trader Magazine! He said he was there because his chief "made" him...now who's wasting the money?

    Although I agree the fee is a little steep I think the knowledge,networking, and Brotherhood--that is what this is about, isn't it?-- that you gain from the class is invaluable.

    The hands on taught me a sh#&load of new techniques that you don't normally think of, when plans A and B go out the window.

    If you know the price upfront and take two seconds to research what you are getting into, you should be able to make an informed decision on whether or not this class is for you.

    I,for one, am glad I took the time to attend.

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    Default Hrt?

    HRT... as in Holmotro Rescue Tools... aren't those the people who "help" the poor fire service providers with that $300+ book that they publish on vehicle construction? The one that you would need to replace each year because of new technology?
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    HRT holmatro resce tools, nifty, bet you were teachers pet in school

    How 'bout Heavy Rescue Truck 10?
    No need to read things into somethings that is not there. Is a forum not a place for differing opinions? I do however, lean toward the HRT, holmatro rescue tool, side, because of personal preference.

    By the way, we just bought or 3rd copy of the book, it was only $199, and it is now updated as auto manufacturers make changes throughout the year. According to "HRT" at FDIC, the updates will cost a fraction of the whole package.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrtrescue10 View Post
    HRT holmatro resce tools, nifty, bet you were teachers pet in school

    How 'bout Heavy Rescue Truck 10?
    No need to read things into somethings that is not there. Is a forum not a place for differing opinions? I do however, lean toward the HRT, holmatro rescue tool, side, because of personal preference.

    By the way, we just bought or 3rd copy of the book, it was only $199, and it is now updated as auto manufacturers make changes throughout the year. According to "HRT" at FDIC, the updates will cost a fraction of the whole package.
    Whatever, my point was made... while I am not "in bed" with any brand of tool (like you, I "lean" toward Phoenix because of personal experience), it is a "dog-eat-dog" world out there in the extrication business at times. Having never taken the course that you feel is too expensive for what you get, I cannot give a comment on that topic. However, I do feel that even $199.00 for a book is a lot of money to charge. Many departments cannot afford to shell that out each year, which leaves it up to the individuals to decide if they want to put that much into a book that is obsolete in a year. I was not even aware that you had to pay for the "updates" that come throughout the year.

    BTW, I was not the "Teacher's Pet" in school, I think I was more like the "Teachers' Worst Nightmare"! Take no offense, as none were intended. The HRT just brought to mind my pet peeve with Holmotro and their book. I would suspect that someone could make it available for a more reasonable price, but knowing this indusrty, Holmotro won't part with their copyrights...
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    We Peal and Peak, and secure the 12 volt system.
    It saves us 200 bucks a year and we don't have to worry if we have got the latest update.

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    Wink

    [QUOTE=MetalMedic;947910]
    BTW, I was not the "Teacher's Pet" in school, I think I was more like the "Teachers' Worst Nightmare"!

    Ever notice that the most dedicated of us in the Fire/Rescue world were usually the "most popular" among the faculty and staff of the Nations learning institutions????????????????????????//

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