1. #1
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    Default 911 call of man that shot and killed 2 people that were burglarizing

    Texas Justice


    911 call of man that shot and killed 2 people that were burglarizing the house next door
    Nov. 15, 2007 Pasadena
    A Pasadena homeowner this afternoon fatally shot two men he believed were burglarizing his neighbor's house, police said.

    About 2 p.m., the homeowner in the Village Grove East subdivision heard noises he thought sounded like broken glass, said Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett, with the Pasadena Police Department. The man determined the noise was coming from next door.

    The man, who police have not identified, knew the owner of the house in the 7400 block of Timberline Drive was not home, and that the noise could possibly be a burglary, Corbett said. The man then called police to inform them he thought his neighbor's house was being burglarized.

    The man then saw two men coming through a gate in the backyard of the neighbor's house.

    "He confronted them with a shotgun," Corbett said, and asked them to stop. They did not and he fired two shots, striking each man once, Corbett said.

    One man was found dead about two houses from where the reported burglary occurred. The other was found dead across the street, Corbett said.

    Police are interviewing the homeowner.

    A window in the back of the neighbor's house was broken



    Texas law was changed
    on September 1st, 2007 to extend the 'Castle
    Doctrine' to include vehicles and workplaces, and
    eliminated the requirement to flee. (You can now
    stand your ground, and not be forced by law to run
    away, even if you could've prevented additional
    harm, damage, or theft.)

    Under the section "Protection of the Property
    of Others", the law reads "A person is
    justified in using force or deadly force against
    another to protect the property of a third person
    if he reasonably believes he would be justified to
    use similar force to protect his own property, and
    he reasonably believes that there existed an
    attempt or actual commission of the crime of theft
    or criminal mischief.
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    Thumbs up Yeaaahhhhhhh................

    Now, if we could get that Law extended to cover the other 49 States......
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    That's pretty wild stuff. Boom you're dead.
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    The ridiculous thing is that we were ever supposed to flee in the first place, or that we cannot shoot someone down who is taking our stuff. You steal and the owner sees it and puts you down, tough ****e.

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    What a frackin' cowboy idiot.
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    I've read more, apparently. He observed them making entry and gave them a warning. They shouldn't have broken in in the first place and they should have stopped when the man with the shotgun told them to. I am glad he shot them and I hope he doesn't get in trouble for doing what more people should do.

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    What a frackin' cowboy idiot.
    Yea and when they rob, or rape, or murder your family close friend or relative, you let us know how you feel about it after that. Of course that doesn't surprise me that this comes from the east coast. Home of Wash. DC- strictest gun laws in the nation and some of the highest, if not the THE highest gun crime rate in the nation....
    Answer this, who is really breaking the law; an individual breaking into your home, willing to rob you of your property, or worse? Or the home owner doing what it takes to defend himself and his hard earned property?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Yea and when they rob, or rape, or murder your family close friend or relative, you let us know how you feel about it after that.
    There were no lives in danger here. The PD was moments away and the caller knew it. He went out of his way to insert himself into a situation that he had no business in despite being explicitly told to stay out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Of course that doesn't surprise me that this comes from the east coast.
    That's pretty funny. Are you assuming I'm opposed to gun ownership just because I'm opposed to some cowboy lynching a couple of fleeing burglars?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Or the home owner doing what it takes to defend himself and his hard earned property?
    You left out the vigilante neighbor determined to rush out and shoot two petty burglars quick before they could be arrested by the police and properly tried... The guy made it pretty clear that he wanted an excuse to shoot those people.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    We need more neighbors like this. Talk about a drop in the crime rate.
    Just my humle two cents. I know that doesn't mean much.

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    I'm sorry I got carried away. I should have just assumed that after breaking into the home, they where going to the mission and feed the homeless, then to the orphan shelter to read to the children...
    My bad.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    There were no lives in danger here. The PD was moments away and the caller knew it. He went out of his way to insert himself into a situation that he had no business in despite being explicitly told to stay out of it.



    That's pretty funny. Are you assuming I'm opposed to gun ownership just because I'm opposed to some cowboy lynching a couple of fleeing burglars?



    You left out the vigilante neighbor determined to rush out and shoot two petty burglars quick before they could be arrested by the police and properly tried... The guy made it pretty clear that he wanted an excuse to shoot those people.

    Not to mention, we have insurance (or should have). I would rather pay the deductible than live with killing a human being for taking material possessions.
    Vita brevis; terra larga.

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    Nice shooting!
    2 for 2!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higby916 View Post
    Not to mention, we have insurance (or should have). I would rather pay the deductible than live with killing a human being for taking material possessions.
    I think that would depend on the material possessions we are talking about.
    I am in between on how I feel about what this man did. On one side heck yah 2 less scum to deal with that who knows may kill for there next robbery and I don't have to pay taxes for these jerks to rot in prison.

    But on the other hand he put himself in harms way when he was told not to by the law.
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    Good Shoot, and the neighborhood just got a reputation for being a tough place to steal atv in so burglars will drive on by rather than target this place again. We should have more neighbors like this fella.

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    Yeah, I was from the Northeast and was a softie on the whole "providing protection for you family and possessions" thing. I think they put something in the water. All I got to say is now is "Nice shooting, Tex." Let me replace those shells for you.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

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    It is rare that I would agree with my brother from CT, but he is dead on with this one. If this was NJ, this moron would be on his way to prison for at least 20 years-deservedly so.

    1. As long as he stayed in the house, he was in zero danger.
    2. He was specifically instructed by the dispatcher to NOT do what he did.
    3. He sounded like a friggin' guy with a hostage: "I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it". As has been stated, he inserted himself into a situation where he didn't belong. He placed himself into the danger he later used as justification to kill another human being. Does anybody know if they were armed?
    4. He was extremely fortunate that he was not shot. He was also extremely fortunate that he did not shoot a plainclothes officer.

    I understand that you Texans are all jazzed up about your cowboy laws, but there is something seriously wrong when this type of killing is justified. It's just plain wrong that a person can get away with murder in this type of situation. Just plain wrong.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Last time I checked, dispatchers weren't authorities over the action of citizens.

    The man observed the burglars making entry and then running off with stuff. He went outside and told them to stop.

    I believe there are circumstances under which it should be legal and is moral to shoot others. I believe catching someone in the act of burglarizing a home (one's own home or another's) is within his rights to shoot the offender. I believe if the homeowner had been the shooter, some wouldn't be so worried. I see no difference. Should burglars live because they are lucky to break into a house without people in the home? What happens when burglars stumble across an occupant? Do we believe this would have been their last job? It wasn't their first criminal offense, we know that. All they had to do was stop. They chose not to.

    One might argue they were only material possessions. Certainly. But I argue that burglary itself is an act of violence. Many succesful burglars become more emboldened. Some intend not to physically harm people, but what happens when they come across an occupant? I'm not willing to wait to find that out. How do we know they haven't killed before? Or that they just killed someone in the house? Why are we letting them get away? What is the reason behind letting a known criminal now on the run (equals desperate and afraid) go running into our neighborhood, amongst the people we know? Even if we see no gun, are we to let them run loose? What if they force their way into someone's car or house? What if they get a mother with children in the car and steal it? This has happened before. Or if they get a car and get in a chase and someone gets hit by them? Criminals are dangerous. They don't like to go to prison and sometimes in their attempts to escape, they hurt people. The innocent do not deserve to have their lives risked for the sake of letting them go rather than stopping them. I have friends in Pasadena, and I don't want criminals on the run through there.

    Another consideration. These guys get away. There is one guy who knows who they are. If they don't go to jail, or they get let out on bond, or they get convicted and then get released, why should this guy have to worry that they'll try to keep him quiet?

    I believe the strong have a right and a duty to protect the weak, regardless of badges. In this case, this man was the strong. The criminals were not the weak, they were men who'd chosen to break into a home and steal things that did not belong to them. They chose this. They had a history of criminal activity. They weren't children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    Last time I checked, dispatchers weren't authorities over the action of citizens.

    The man observed the burglars making entry and then running off with stuff. He went outside and told them to stop.

    I believe there are circumstances under which it should be legal and is moral to shoot others. I believe catching someone in the act of burglarizing a home (one's own home or another's) is within his rights to shoot the offender. I believe if the homeowner had been the shooter, some wouldn't be so worried. I see no difference. Should burglars live because they are lucky to break into a house without people in the home? What happens when burglars stumble across an occupant? Do we believe this would have been their last job? It wasn't their first criminal offense, we know that. All they had to do was stop. They chose not to.

    One might argue they were only material possessions. Certainly. But I argue that burglary itself is an act of violence. Many succesful burglars become more emboldened. Some intend not to physically harm people, but what happens when they come across an occupant? I'm not willing to wait to find that out. How do we know they haven't killed before? Or that they just killed someone in the house? Why are we letting them get away? What is the reason behind letting a known criminal now on the run (equals desperate and afraid) go running into our neighborhood, amongst the people we know? Even if we see no gun, are we to let them run loose? What if they force their way into someone's car or house? What if they get a mother with children in the car and steal it? This has happened before. Or if they get a car and get in a chase and someone gets hit by them? Criminals are dangerous. They don't like to go to prison and sometimes in their attempts to escape, they hurt people. The innocent do not deserve to have their lives risked for the sake of letting them go rather than stopping them. I have friends in Pasadena, and I don't want criminals on the run through there.

    Another consideration. These guys get away. There is one guy who knows who they are. If they don't go to jail, or they get let out on bond, or they get convicted and then get released, why should this guy have to worry that they'll try to keep him quiet?

    I believe the strong have a right and a duty to protect the weak, regardless of badges. In this case, this man was the strong. The criminals were not the weak, they were men who'd chosen to break into a home and steal things that did not belong to them. They chose this. They had a history of criminal activity. They weren't children.
    Couple of thoughts, here.

    1. The jerk with the shotgun was not an authority either.
    2. Do we know that the dispatcher was not an officer?
    3. It makes no difference if it was the homeowner, neighbor or dog catcher. As the dispatcher stated, there is no property worth killing someone over.
    4. Burglary, by legal definition, is a property crime.
    5. Even in a state with abusrd death penalty laws (I am generally in favor of capital punishment), there is no death penalty for burglary.
    6. What if, what if, what if. What if he shot and missed? What about those rounds? If he kills an innocent party, what do we say? Too bad, your child died because someone stole my neighbor's watch?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Here is a much better article on the case that does not celebrate this action.

    Nov. 15, 2007, 9:58PM
    Shooting of theft suspects may test self-defense law


    By RUTH RENDON and PEGGY O'HARE
    Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

    In a case legal experts say may "stretch the limits" of the state's self-defense laws, a Pasadena man shot and killed two suspected burglars during a confrontation as they attempted to flee his neighbor's property Wednesday afternoon.

    In the minutes before the fatal shootings, Pasadena police said the man called 911 and reported that he had heard glass breaking next door and saw two men entering the home through a window. Still on the phone with police, the man, believed to be in his 70s, saw the suspects leaving from the back of the home.

    "I'm getting my gun and going to stop them," the neighbor told the dispatcher during the 2 p.m. call, according to Vance Mitchell, a spokesman for Pasadena police. "The dispatcher said, 'No, stay inside the house; officers are on the way.'

    "Then you hear him rack the shotgun. The next sound the dispatcher heard was a boom. Then there was silence for a couple of seconds and then another boom."

    After the shotgun blasts, the telephone line went dead. But the neighbor called police again and told a dispatcher what he had done.

    When police arrived moments later, they found two dead men in the 7400 block of Timberline Drive. One was across the street, and the other had collapsed two houses down behind a bank of mailboxes in the Village Grove East subdivision.


    Up to the grand jury
    Police said the neighbor, whose name was withheld Wednesday, appeared calm as he retraced his steps for police.

    "He was well composed and knew what he was doing," Mitchell said. "He was protecting the neighbor's property."

    It will be up to a Harris County grand jury to decide if the man committed a crime by opening fire, police said.

    Wednesday's shooting "clearly is going to stretch the limits of the self-defense law," said defense attorney Tommy LaFon, who is also a former Harris County prosecutor.

    If the absent homeowner tells police that he asked his neighbor to watch over his property, that could play in his favor, LaFon said.

    "If the homeowner comes out and says, 'My neighbor had a greater right of possession than the people trying to break in,' that could put him (the gunman) in an ownership role," LaFon said.

    The Texas Penal Code says a person can use force or deadly force to defend someone else's property if he reasonably believes he has a legal duty to do so or the property owner had requested his protection.

    The neighbor, however, would have been on much safer legal ground if he had been trying to protect his own property, LaFon said.


    Failed to stop
    Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett said the neighbor told investigators that he knew the next-door residents were not home. The man told investigators that he encountered the pair when they exited his neighbor's through a gate leading to the front yard.

    Corbett said the neighbor asked the men, one of which was carrying a white bag, to stop, but they did not.

    When police arrived the shooter was sitting on the ground and appeared to be very upset, Corbett said. "There was some discussion about calling an ambulance for him," Corbett said.

    As of noon Thursday, no charges had been filed, Corbett said.

    The shooter was very cooperative with police and lead officers though a run-through of what happened at the scene and later made a statement at the police station.

    The white bag one the dead men had been carrying contained a large amount of cash that had apparently been taken from the house, Corbett said.

    Two windows in the back of the house had been broken, one possibly as an entrance and the other as an exit, Corbett said. One was a regular window, but the other was translucent glass blocks. It was the sound of breaking glass that alerted the shooter, Corbett said.

    Police have not found the families of the dead men, who both are in their 30's. One had identification indicating he was from Puerto Rico, the other had paper indicating he may have been from Puerto Rico, Colombia or the Dominican Republic, he said.

    Both men were shot once at a range of less than 15 feet with blasts from a 12-guage shotgun.

    The neighbor fired twice. One shot struck one of the suspected burglars in the chest, and the other was struck on the side.

    Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect their own property to stop an arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night, or to prevent someone committing such a crime at night from escaping with the property.

    But the person using deadly force must believe there is no other way to protect their belongings and must suspect that taking less drastic measures could expose themselves or others to serious danger.

    A state senator who authored a law passed this year giving Texans stronger rights to defend themselves with deadly force said he did not believe the legislation he spearheaded would apply to the Pasadena case, based on the sketchy facts that have emerged so far.

    Sen. Jeff Wentworth, a San Antonio Republican, said the so-called castle doctrine law he wrote doesn't apply to people protecting their neighbors' property.

    The measure "is not designed to have kind of a 'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," Wentworth said. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."


    A quiet neighborhood
    On Wednesday afternoon, other residents were stunned to exit their homes to find police cars and yellow crime scene tape

    Lacey Hernandez, who lives one block from the shooting, was home when she heard two loud pops, but couldn't identify the noise. A short time later, she was leaving to pick up her children from school when she noticed the police cars.

    "I was in shock because I never heard a gunshot before," Hernandez said.

    She described her neighborhood as very quiet. The subdivision is lined with two-story brick homes with trees in the front yards.

    "We leave our garage door open," she said. "We let the kids run the streets just like nothing. Now they will not be playing in the streets."
    Somebody let me know when he gets indicted.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Couple of thoughts, here.

    1. The jerk with the shotgun was not an authority either.
    2. Do we know that the dispatcher was not an officer?
    3. It makes no difference if it was the homeowner, neighbor or dog catcher. As the dispatcher stated, there is no property worth killing someone over.
    4. Burglary, by legal definition, is a property crime.
    5. Even in a state with abusrd death penalty laws (I am generally in favor of capital punishment), there is no death penalty for burglary.
    6. What if, what if, what if. What if he shot and missed? What about those rounds? If he kills an innocent party, what do we say? Too bad, your child died because someone stole my neighbor's watch?
    1. Are only authorities allowed to kill people? Would it have been okay for the homoeowner to shoot these people?
    2. I don't see him having authority to order someone to allow burglars to escape.
    3. So we simply let people take things unless they brandish a weapon? DO we have to wait until they pull one? How do we know the money taken wasn't a mortgage payment or money set aside for something vital to the family?
    4. Legally, yes, but it is a violent act.
    5. There is also no death penalty for simply holding a weapon and staring at someone, yet people are shot for this. The penalties in courts are different because the act is past.
    6. If he shot and missed and hit someone, there are laws to cover this. Shall we remove weapons from police, lest they miss when shooting someone? Your comment does not address the reality of allowing criminals on the run to get away. Am I to assume you would rather such proven criminals to escape and endanger the lives of the innocent in their attempt to escape?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Higby916 View Post
    Not to mention, we have insurance (or should have). I would rather pay the deductible than live with killing a human being for taking material possessions.

    I'm sure the guy took their non compliance with his order to stop what they were doing to be an implied threat to him.After all,Sarah Brady used to warn(or maybe threaten) that if you tried using a gun to defend yourself,it will be taken away from you and used against you.After all,what is a firearm but a material possession?
    If they had complied and stopped,they probably wouldn't have gotten shot.The man on the scene is in the better position to decide whether or not they posed a threat to him.Not you and me and him and him and him.(pointing to other posters)
    I,myself,was arrested in '95 for using a shotgun to stop my male and female now former roommates from using a hammer and their fists to assault me when I left a discussion of when I was going to move out.(I'd had to hold back my share of the rent for a week longer than agreed & had it on me that night)
    I didn't have the shotgun at the start of the confrontation,I didn't have it loaded and they had both exits blocked from a second story apartment and until I thought about it later,their friend who was ostensibly there to help me move,was standing at my back next to the stove which had the cooking knives on the rangetop while I was wrestling her for the hammer and getting hit by him in the head.Not a good tactical situation.
    When I got the 20 guage,I racked the action and ordered them to leave,which they did.I'm sure glad that they didn't call my bluff.The guy is 6'2'' and while she's 5'5",she's like the Cletus T.Judd song"Butt bigger than a Beetle" where it says"Deion Sanders better leave her alone." They both hit like they were trying to injure me.God knows what would have happened if she'd gotten me with that hammer.My head is missahapen as it is.I don't need more dents in it and I like being alive.
    When the SO arrived,she was still in tears from my actions and was the reason they arrested me.
    Even though at arraignment,they both said that they had attacked first,the charges were not dropped.When the court case was coming to trial with no sign of me begging mercy from the court(who'd already started calling it domestic violence the first day without hearing any facts),my mouthpiece told me that the DA had come to him with a deal:if they lower the charges to misdemeanors,I can plead guilty and then still be able to own firearms.
    I took that deal at his and my ex's advice with great misgivings.If they were so sure they had a solid case,why NOT go into trial and let me trick f**k myself into a cell?
    I still say the DA wanted to be the first kid on his block to get a conviction under the Domestic Violence Act which wasn't passed until AFTER my arrest.

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    Here in South Carolina we have somewhat recently passed a 'concealed weapons permit' law for citizens able to pass a SLED background check and take a training class. Which is surprising considering most of the state is armed one way or the other already. We also have fairly strict rights to defend ourselves in our homes. Unfortunately not as liberal as my native state. Yet. Oxymoron; Liberal Texas. I'm not sure but if I kill someone here on my front porch I think I have to drag their sorry butt inside prior to the law showing up.
    This incident made news mostly 'cause it was very rare. Unless I missed it in the prior posts,I wonder if anyone asked the shooter if he knew the law and did he act based on it? Law or not he really hung his rear end out there for the circumstances. Ahwile back. Sometime in '90,91 in Austin, Texas a guy wakes up to some noise in his suburban neighborhood. Comes outside to find some knucklehead pushing his mustang down the street. Don't recall the details but he ends up shooting and killing this guy.(to stop the theft) He took him out a few houses down and the debate then obviously was he within his rights. I think he ended up getting no-billed. That was the first time I recall the 'rules of engagement' debate in Texas moved from intruder in the house to outside and brought in property protection. It took that incident (I am guessing) as precedent to get to this dicey addition of taking someone out on your neighbors behalf.
    The interesting thing here is the neighborhood it took place in. The residents are not all on the same page. It freaked out some of the folks. Thats' not good.
    I live in a rural area with hundreds of yards between some neighbors. It also contains families that have been in the community for over two hundred years. When I moved in it was their page I was on. We help each other. A local would we dealt with differently than a stranger. Unless someone was attacked somehow the most that would happen would be an attempt to hold them until the law got there. Maybe....We are a loonnng way from town.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Nice shooting!
    2 for 2!










    Especially if the 12 was on full choke

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post

    I believe there are circumstances under which it should be legal and is moral to shoot others. I believe catching someone in the act of burglarizing a home (one's own home or another's) is within his rights to shoot the offender. I believe if the homeowner had been the shooter, some wouldn't be so worried. I see no difference. Should burglars live because they are lucky to break into a house without people in the home?
    Allowed to live??? I don't think burglary is a capital crime in Texas.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    One might argue they were only material possessions. Certainly. But I argue that burglary itself is an act of violence. Many succesful burglars become more emboldened. Some intend not to physically harm people, but what happens when they come across an occupant? I'm not willing to wait to find that out. How do we know they haven't killed before? Or that they just killed someone in the house? Why are we letting them get away? What is the reason behind letting a known criminal now on the run (equals desperate and afraid) go running into our neighborhood, amongst the people we know? Even if we see no gun, are we to let them run loose? What if they force their way into someone's car or house? What if they get a mother with children in the car and steal it? This has happened before. Or if they get a car and get in a chase and someone gets hit by them? Criminals are dangerous. They don't like to go to prison and sometimes in their attempts to escape, they hurt people. The innocent do not deserve to have their lives risked for the sake of letting them go rather than stopping them. I have friends in Pasadena, and I don't want criminals on the run through there.
    How about we find out if the burglars killed someone before we go ahead and summarily execute someone? If I killed someone for every time they could have possibly killed someone, there would be an issue. Yes criminals are dangerous, but that doesn't mean we need to kill them all.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    1. Are only authorities allowed to kill people? Would it have been okay for the homoeowner to shoot these people?
    2. I don't see him having authority to order someone to allow burglars to escape.
    3. So we simply let people take things unless they brandish a weapon? DO we have to wait until they pull one? How do we know the money taken wasn't a mortgage payment or money set aside for something vital to the family?
    4. Legally, yes, but it is a violent act.
    5. There is also no death penalty for simply holding a weapon and staring at someone, yet people are shot for this. The penalties in courts are different because the act is past.
    6. If he shot and missed and hit someone, there are laws to cover this. Shall we remove weapons from police, lest they miss when shooting someone? Your comment does not address the reality of allowing criminals on the run to get away. Am I to assume you would rather such proven criminals to escape and endanger the lives of the innocent in their attempt to escape?
    Six absolutely ridiculous points.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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