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  1. #21
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    That would be in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution in the Bill of Rights.

    Don't feel badly, lot's of people don't know where to find it.

    Are you sure that's what it says in the first amendment?

    Are you sure it doesn't say this?

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


  2. #22
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Are you sure that's what it says in the first amendment?
    The courts have rendered opinions of the 1st Ammendment as the basis for the seperation of church and state.

    The phrase
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
    has been taken to mean there will be no establishment of an official church or religion by the US Government as it is organized within the confines of the Constitution.

    The Founding Fathers were either aware of or experienced life in Great Britain where Church of England was an integral part of that nation's society.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  3. #23
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Are you sure that's what it says in the first amendment?
    I'm sorry, did I use any quotation marks or anything else to imply I was quoting?

    Thank you, scfire, for pointing out what I assumed was obvious.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  4. #24
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Actually mine doesn't go nearly as far left as you seem to think. I'm just funny about that whole separation of church and state thing. I happen to think that it's a monumentally good idea. The authors of the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights) seemed to think so and I agree. Of course, they would have been considered pretty far to the left in their day, too.

    Maybe there was some confusion, but here is the quote from you that I responded to. You did use the phrase 'separation of church and state thing'. I know I was being ticky about it, but I have been corrected in the past when talking about the constitution. I'm not saying by you, but from others, and on this issue.

    The constitution, as it is written, talks nothing about separating church and state. It states as SC pointed out, that no establishment of a religion by the government, or preventing the free exercise of one.

    Believe it or not, Sc and I were saying the same thing. There is no such thing as a 'separation of church and state', as written in the constitution. All it states is what Sc pointed out.
    Last edited by jasper45; 11-26-2007 at 11:02 AM. Reason: missed word

  5. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber RoughRider's Avatar
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    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

    These sixteen simple words in the Constitution of the United States have a unique place. Together they constitute a principle our nation's Founders deemed so important that these two phrases, known as the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses, respectively, became the first lines of the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights -- the principle enumeration of inalienable rights deemed so essential to liberty that they should be named explicitly in the Constitution, to be protected by it.

    Yet, for something so essential, the rights named in these two phrases have been subject to scrutiny out of all proportion to their sixteen meager words. What did the Founders intend for the relationship between church and state, belief and government, to be? Is there, as Thomas Jefferson suggested in his letter to the Danbury Baptists, a "wall of separation" between the two? In short the answer is yes. But to extend the wall metaphor, a simple "yes" does not answer how high or impenetrable that wall is, what are its contours, or if it contains gates whereby religion and the state may interact. To bring any clarity to these issues, the history and context of the American founding must be accounted for.



    Evidently the authors of the 50 State Constitutions didnt build a big enough wall.

    Alabama 1901, Preamble.
    "We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution..."

    Alaska 1956, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land..."

    Arizona 1911, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution..."

    Arkansas 1874, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government..."

    California 1879, Preamble.
    "We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom..."

    Colorado 1876, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe..."

    Connecticut 1818, Preamble.
    "The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy..."

    Delaware 1897, Preamble.
    "Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences..."

    Florida 1885, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty... establish this Constitution..."

    Georgia 1777, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution..."

    Hawaii 1959, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance establish this Constitution..."

    Idaho 1889, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings..."

    Illinois 1870, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors..."

    Indiana 1851, Preamble.
    "We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government..."

    Iowa 1857, Preamble.
    "We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution..."

    Kansas 1859, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution..."

    Kentucky 1891, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties..."

    Louisiana 1921, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy..."

    Maine 1820, Preamble.
    "We the People of Maine... acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity... and imploring His aid and direction..."

    Maryland 1776, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty..."

    Massachusetts 1780, Preamble.
    "We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity... and devoutly imploring His direction..."

    Michigan 1908, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom... establish this Constitution..."

    Minnesota, 1857, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings..."

    Mississippi 1890, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work..."

    Missouri 1845, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness establish this Constitution..."

    Montana 1889, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution..."

    Nebraska 1875, Preamble.
    "We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution..."

    Nevada 1864, Preamble.
    "We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom... establish this Constitution..."

    New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. "Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience..."

    New Jersey 1844, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors..."

    New Mexico 1911, Preamble.
    "We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty..."

    New York 1846, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings..."

    North Carolina 1868, Preamble.
    "We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those..."

    North Dakota 1889, Preamble.
    "We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain..."

    Ohio 1852, Preamble.
    "We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common..."

    Oklahoma 1907, Preamble.
    "Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty... establish this..."

    Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. "All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..."

    Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance..."

    Rhode Island 1842, Preamble.
    "We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing..."

    South Carolina, 1778, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution..."

    South Dakota 1889, Preamble.
    "We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties... establish this..."

    Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. "That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience... "

    Texas 1845, Preamble.
    "We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God..."

    Utah 1896, Preamble.
    "Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution..."

    Vermont 1777, Preamble.
    "Whereas all government ought to... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man..."

    Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI. "Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason... and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other..."

    Washington 1889, Preamble.
    "We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution..."

    West Virginia 1872, Preamble.
    "Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God..."

    Wisconsin 1848, Preamble.
    "We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility..."

    Wyoming 1890, Preamble.
    "We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties... establish this Constitution..."
    Last edited by RoughRider; 11-26-2007 at 11:21 AM.
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


    IACOJ PROUD

  6. #26
    Forum Member Raughammer1's Avatar
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    Excellent post RR, excellent post.

  7. #27
    MembersZone Subscriber RoughRider's Avatar
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    The phrase "...a wall of separation between Church and State." appears in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Baptist Association of Danbury, CT on January 1, 1802 - it does not appear anywhere in the Constitution. The eight words contained in that phrase were taken out of context by the Supreme Court in 1947 when it struck down school prayer in the case of Everson v. Board of Education. The Supreme Court, which cited zero precedents for its ruling, stated that "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach." Thomas Jefferson's letter says "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting [regarding] an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." President Jefferson's meaning was further clarified in a letter to the Reverend Samuel Miller on January 23, 1808 when he said "I consider the government of the United States as interdicted [prohibited] by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions...or exercises."
    Last edited by RoughRider; 11-26-2007 at 03:48 PM.
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


    IACOJ PROUD

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