1. #1
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    Default Last Minute Ideas

    Just a few things to run by everyone. We just awarded a bid to Rosenbauer for a new Engine. 1250 gallon tank 1250 gpm Waterous Single Stage Pump, Top Mount, International 4 door 7400, all LED's...etc etc...now questions...we just had a preconstruction meeting this week so we have 90 days to do minor changes.

    1) Due to the ridiculous length this truck is going to present us we opted not to get the extended front bumper, but would still like to put a Q on. Anyone had any problems mounting a regular Q2B on the front bumper flush?

    2) Any thoughts over an EQ2B through dual 100W Speakers.

    3) Mini LED Bars facing outward over the rear doors of the cab along with adding these new mini super bright LED's in the rub rails on top of the normal 4x6 body LED lights.

    4) Arrow stick in the back...yes or no?

    5) Headsets...none of our apparatus currently has headsets in the cabs, but we're at least putting 2 in the new one...drivers and officers seats...any thoughts on just going w/ headsets at all cab seats. I was also wondering if anyone has a headset plug in back on their pump panel and how well they work out.

    Final Question 6) We're to the point where we're just doing some last minute messing with shelves and compartments deciding whether to incorporate some drop down shelves or not and whether or not to close off the top half of the rear transverse cupboard, and whether or not to omit one or both extinguisher compartments on the rear.

    All minor changes if they're going to be changes at all so any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated...thanks.

    BFD
    Engine Co. 611

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    [QUOTE=bchap611;893787]Just a few things to run by everyone. We just awarded a bid to Rosenbauer for a new Engine. 1250 gallon tank 1250 gpm Waterous Single Stage Pump, Top Mount, International 4 door 7400, all LED's...etc etc...now questions...we just had a preconstruction meeting this week so we have 90 days to do minor changes.



    4) Arrow stick in the back...yes or no?


    Ab Soooo Lute Ly !

    The arrow stick is a huge factor in scene safety. Studies show that they subconsciously direct people in the direction of the blinking light.
    Money well spent my friend.

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    Good questions bcchap:
    1. I'd go with electronic siren more effective sound radiation forward.
    2. See Above
    3. Definitely LED's the more the better for visibility.
    4. The arrow stick is a must if you do a lot of road work. we put one on our last truck and it can be seen a long way back.
    5. I don't think you'll need headsets in the IH cab. they are pretty well soundproofed in comparison to a custom cab with a screaming detroit under your butt.. We do have headsets with mike on both of our top mount engines for the pump operator. we had a small compartment mounted on top of the pump panel to hold them and the remote radio head. they work well for us.
    6. only you can decide how best to divide the compartment space to fit in all your tools. Personally I don't care for the pull out and drop shelves. stuff tends to slide off unless it's strapped down.

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    1. Never mounted a Q flush on an International but I guess if there isn't anything in the way behind the bumper you could. You could also make a mount to bolt onto the bumper. Doesn't look the greatest but not as long as an extendend bumper.

    2. Still not the real thing. Kinda like drinking NA beer. It sounds like a Q but still isn't omnidirectional with the "square" soundwaves.

    3. Don't know if the minibars are necessary but hey, it's your truck.

    4. Arrowstick...of course.

    5. With most newer apparatus I really don't think it's necessary to have headsets. They are a lot less noisey than the old cabovers where you practically sat on the engine and there was no insulation around it. For the pump operator I prefer a portable with a headset. This way they aren't tethered to the panel.

    6. You need to think out what equipment your going to carry and where. Slide outs are nice for you PPV fan or any large items you might carry ie. portable pump, hydraulic pump. Spec it to your needs. This is an area I see MANY departments drop the ball. If you need a bigger compartment in the rear you can always put the extinguishers in one of the highsides if you have them. Most of all, spend the extra money on organizers like Pac mounts or Sensible Products. Here is an example of a truck set up by Sensible Products.

    Last edited by GFD940; 12-10-2007 at 08:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Good questions bcchap:
    1. I'd go with electronic siren more effective sound radiation forward.
    2. See Above
    Sorry, gotta drop the BS flag on that one!
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    Default Arrowstick

    1) I've seen them on a Freightliner, but know idea on the IH.

    2) What about trying the Whelen 295SL? It has a mechanical siren program that sounds fair on Youtube at 1/3 the cost of the EQB. With dual 100 watt sirens it out to be heard.

    3)Whatever

    4)Maybe it's just the water up here, but we are going away from the arrowstick. We have three vehicles withe standard LED arrowsticks and the public doesn't seem to really understand the them. The big DOT style with the actual pointed arrows on the ends may be a different story, but the multi-light LEDs with the chasing effect doesn't work IMO.

    5) We just started using headsets and we're about 60/40 split as officers and 40/60 split amongst the firefighters. In all the in cab comms are great, and hearing the radio is no problem, but it seems like we've lost touch wth the sounds of the road, the audible warning devices and the motor. I'd certainly go full cab if you regularly staff all the seats. We also opted out of the punp panel plug in and are going with a portable radio with a headset for the operator. the FD next door hates being tethered to the panel and early on in a fire the operator is moving about to much to use the set. The portable radio gives him the flexibility to go anywhere and remain in contact, though again losing the ability to listen to the truck.

    6) the roll out tilts we have take up too much space (the hardware) but I've seen some set ups that used them to full advantage so it would depend on what was to be stored on them.

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    GENUINE Q. Accept no imitations including the E-joke. If you want to add a Whelen 295(like we did)OK too.Flush mounting on the bumper: No issues,works fine. Mini's over the doors looks sharp and give you a little Extra. Arrowstik: Definitely! In cab headsets,we went that route on our new one;I would suggest at least one portable set up that way so the D/O can move around easier.We got Firecoms with the plug so you can either plug in at the panel or use the portable.On the compartments,you're on your own.What we do probably isn't what you do.Try to think ahead about any potential changes you might want to make over the next ten years and set the truck up so you can go that way if needed.Compartmentation layout has always been a area where I feel we could do better,but equipment needs and mounts change so often it's a place where considerable thought should be applied.Good luck. T.C.

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    Talking Shelving Idea

    Here is another shelving option that has worked well for some departments like Orange CO and KCFD. Cheaper than doing shelving and mounting brackets and it can be locked per drawer. The magnetic equipment identification tags can be moved very easily also. Just an idea! More info can be found at www.respondready.com.
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    [QUOTE=RFDACM02;894645]1)
    4)Maybe it's just the water up here, but we are going away from the arrowstick. We have three vehicles withe standard LED arrowsticks and the public doesn't seem to really understand the them. The big DOT style with the actual pointed arrows on the ends may be a different story, but the multi-light LEDs with the chasing effect doesn't work IMO.

    I agree 100%. Most arrowsticks get lost in other vehicle lighting. As stated, the only effective ones are the "true" DOT style arrows and usually theres no room for them on an engine. The new reflective chevrons will only make the arrowsticks less effective when they are hit with headlights. I've seen many times the arrowsticks are actually pointing the wrong way or just in a flashing mode because the MPO or OIC didn't have time to properly set the pattern. Use standard warning lighting, cones etc and save the money. JMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FD1976 View Post
    I agree 100%. Most arrowsticks get lost in other vehicle lighting. As stated, the only effective ones are the "true" DOT style arrows and usually theres no room for them on an engine. The new reflective chevrons will only make the arrowsticks less effective when they are hit with headlights. I've seen many times the arrowsticks are actually pointing the wrong way or just in a flashing mode because the MPO or OIC didn't have time to properly set the pattern. Use standard warning lighting, cones etc and save the money. JMO.
    We've watched many motorists just sit there and stare blankly at the arrowsticks then start to creep out and pass, just like they did before we had the arrowsticks. I think the concept is great, and maybe it's a driver's ed. issue but most don't seem to follow the lights.

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    While we did not go with the DOT arrow style on our new rig, it will have the 4500 Series Whelen arrowstick pictured in the attached photo. It almost seems that it would make sense to shut off upper warning lights so as not to mix up the signals with the arrow.
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    Last edited by MG3610; 12-19-2007 at 03:28 AM.

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    Have the "Q" mounted on the officer's side of the apparatus (We had ours on the driver's side and the driver pays for it). I would go withan eletric which has a phaser, hi lo, and yelp vs. the Q2B. We have a Q2B on our quint and it sounds like soemthing is dying rather than a siren.

    Have Rosenbauer mount the tools for you. Purchase the SEPERATE!!! My dept purchased an engine 6 months ago. We purchased the loose goods (Axes, pike poles, fans, hoses, shovels, saws etc.) seperately and saved over $15,000.00. We put the hose on ourselves but brought the rest of the tools in and had them mounted on boards and such. CustomFire built our engine but, everyone I spoke with was more than willing to help us.

    Arrow stick is an absolute. If you do alot of MVA's or High traffic areas may I suggest chevron striping on the rear also. Someone already menttioned to turn off some of the LED's so the arrow and chevron is more effective to which I agree 100%.

    I have no knowledge on headsets.

    http://www.customfire.com/d_pumper.php?id=467032e713316

    Here's what we did with ours.

    Good luck and be safe!!!!

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    [QUOTE=FD1976;894716]
    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    1)
    4)Maybe it's just the water up here, but we are going away from the arrowstick. We have three vehicles withe standard LED arrowsticks and the public doesn't seem to really understand the them. The big DOT style with the actual pointed arrows on the ends may be a different story, but the multi-light LEDs with the chasing effect doesn't work IMO.

    I agree 100%. Most arrowsticks get lost in other vehicle lighting. As stated, the only effective ones are the "true" DOT style arrows and usually theres no room for them on an engine. The new reflective chevrons will only make the arrowsticks less effective when they are hit with headlights. I've seen many times the arrowsticks are actually pointing the wrong way or just in a flashing mode because the MPO or OIC didn't have time to properly set the pattern. Use standard warning lighting, cones etc and save the money. JMO.
    You are wrong. Sorry. There are in depth studies that prove that the arrow stick is very effective in directing traffic.
    One thing that is better is the Chevrons that will be mandatory in a year. Very Effective!

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    [QUOTE=fireslayer123;894978]
    Quote Originally Posted by FD1976 View Post

    You are wrong. Sorry. There are in depth studies that prove that the arrow stick is very effective in directing traffic.
    One thing that is better is the Chevrons that will be mandatory in a year. Very Effective!
    Please link us or tell us where to find these studies? I'd like to compare the arrowsticks they find "very effective" to the size of most of the LED sticks that are being used on apparatus lately. And while I agree the chevrons are very visible, your statement leads me to believe that a chevron w/o the arrowstick ought to be effective enough?

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    Thanks for all the replies so far guys, keep them coming. This really does help to have outside opinions just due to the simple fact that there is always going to be that one last thing you missed that you never thought of etc. As far as the arrow sticks I can see both points of view. We have one now on one of our other trucks and I can honestly say its about 50/50. About half the time when we're on the Interstate and have that truck blocking a lane traffic seems to stay smooth running in the other lane and the other half we have traffic backed up for 5 miles and numerous people trying to run me over due to lack of paying attention. I guess thats why we most definitely all need to be on our toes when doing anything on the roadways. As far as MVA's etc yes we do run quite a bit of those due to Interstate and State Routes. We just ducked the Chevron requirement which we're a little on the iffy side towards...not many people liked the way they look on the truck etc, but I do hear they are supposed to be very helpful and visible...guess thats the price you have to pay for safety. Keep the comments coming.
    BFD
    Engine Co. 611/Medic 610

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    Quote Originally Posted by bchap611 View Post

    <<snipped for sanity>>
    1) Due to the ridiculous length this truck is going to present us we opted not to get the extended front bumper, but would still like to put a Q on. Anyone had any problems mounting a regular Q2B on the front bumper flush?
    We have an IH rig with an extended bumper, but I've seen IH units with a mechanical Q recessed into the factory bumper. You'll off course have the shroud for the siren protruding a bit from the bumper, if this bothers you Rosenbauer will do a chrome guard or rubber loading dock style bumpers on either side of the Q.

    2) Any thoughts over an EQ2B through dual 100W Speakers.

    We run two of the E-Qs on light squads. They serve a purpose and I feel they're one of the better projecting electronic sirens on the market. They are in no way an acceptable substitute for a true mechanical Q, and are in fact more expensive than the real deal. We run a dual head SVP Magnum electronic siren along with our Q and with the combo people seem to hear us pretty well.

    They're fantastic for emulating dying cows as well with a little practice using the manual switch and the brake button.


    3) Mini LED Bars facing outward over the rear doors of the cab along with adding these new mini super bright LED's in the rub rails on top of the normal 4x6 body LED lights.

    It all depends on how much money you have to spend. You'll have a stroke when you see how much these little light bars cost, no matter who you get them from. The little lights in the rub rail isn't a bad idea, and a cheap visibility aid - put reflective striping in the rubrail and on shelf and roll-out tray edges. That's a very good way to brighten up the rig without spending a lot of money.

    4) Arrow stick in the back...yes or no?

    This one has been beat to death. Gets pricey if you recess it, if you drape your hose off the bed with loops to pull off the hose, you just may block the arrow stick...

    5) Headsets...none of our apparatus currently has headsets in the cabs, but we're at least putting 2 in the new one...drivers and officers seats...any thoughts on just going w/ headsets at all cab seats. I was also wondering if anyone has a headset plug in back on their pump panel and how well they work out.

    We have headsets on all engines now. Our IH is actually much quieter than our Spartans, so you really don't have to have them... I'd take you for a ride in our IH with the Q full tilt and you'd be surprised how much quieter the cab is with that Q and engine out front of you instead of under you. Again, I don't know how much equipment you need to buy if any for this rig with your given budget, but I'd be looking at new saws (for example) instead of an intercom, but that's me...

    Final Question 6) We're to the point where we're just doing some last minute messing with shelves and compartments deciding whether to incorporate some drop down shelves or not and whether or not to close off the top half of the rear transverse cupboard, and whether or not to omit one or both extinguisher compartments on the rear.
    Our IH in my little picture to the left is pretty tall, with 4wd. We have no drop down trays, and the stuff that's up high never gets used, so it really doesn't bother us. These get expensive quickly, but if you can justify them, they're nice in the right circumstance.
    All minor changes if they're going to be changes at all so any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated...thanks.

    BFD
    Engine Co. 611
    Which division is building the rig?

    You will pay a fortune for tool mounting if the factory does it, and I don't care who builds the truck. Yes, the hassle is not there, but if you have some sharp folks that like to get dirty, we didn't do too bad a job on our last two. You could always have them install Pac Trac in the compartments where you'll be mounting most of your tools, and do the bracket installation yourself. Be warned, like most fire service stuff, the Pac Trac is again a bit costly.
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    I don't know if this is a true Q or an EQ with the look alike cover, but here's an idea of what I've seen with Q sirens on a stock IH bumper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bchap611 View Post
    Just a few things to run by everyone. We just awarded a bid to Rosenbauer for a new Engine. 1250 gallon tank 1250 gpm Waterous Single Stage Pump, Top Mount, International 4 door 7400, all LED's...etc etc...now questions...we just had a preconstruction meeting this week so we have 90 days to do minor changes.

    1) Due to the ridiculous length this truck is going to present us we opted not to get the extended front bumper, but would still like to put a Q on. Anyone had any problems mounting a regular Q2B on the front bumper flush?

    We have a couple of trucks with the Q mounted inside the bumper, no problems with them. They're the same Q, just mounted different.

    2) Any thoughts over an EQ2B through dual 100W Speakers.

    No.

    3) Mini LED Bars facing outward over the rear doors of the cab along with adding these new mini super bright LED's in the rub rails on top of the normal 4x6 body LED lights.

    Sounds like a little overkill to me.

    4) Arrow stick in the back...yes or no?

    If you've got the money, I'd say get it. I like the idea of arrow bars on the rear, so long as they're used and not just there for decoration.

    5) Headsets...none of our apparatus currently has headsets in the cabs, but we're at least putting 2 in the new one...drivers and officers seats...any thoughts on just going w/ headsets at all cab seats. I was also wondering if anyone has a headset plug in back on their pump panel and how well they work out.

    I'd put them in all the seats. Not only are they providing hearing protection for the siren, they allow you to communicate with each other without having to yell over the siren. The pump panel connection is handy as hell and lets the driver hear the radio over the pump and motor. I do prefer the single-eared style here, so I can still hear people when they come up to tell me something.

    Final Question 6) We're to the point where we're just doing some last minute messing with shelves and compartments deciding whether to incorporate some drop down shelves or not and whether or not to close off the top half of the rear transverse cupboard, and whether or not to omit one or both extinguisher compartments on the rear.

    This is one I think you'll have to figure out yourself with the builder. It's hard to recommend something that specific to your department.

    All minor changes if they're going to be changes at all so any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated...thanks.

    BFD
    Engine Co. 611
    I will mention one thing to you. We got a pumper/tanker from Rosenbauer a couple of years ago (delivered just a little over a year ago). We had originally specced a 1,500 Hale. We ended up with a 1,750 Waterous and saved $3,500 in the process. The reason we got th 1,750 is because we wanted to maximize our pump capacity and it didn't cost a dime more for the extra 250 GPM. Might be something to look into if you're interested in more GPM.

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    Mount the Q dead center.Adam,go down to the pier and get some fishnet to hang over your traffic sticks.That way the fishermen can figger out what you're trying to do.They understand lighthouses don't they? Paint the back of the rig like a lighthouse,hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Mount the Q dead center.Adam,go down to the pier and get some fishnet to hang over your traffic sticks.That way the fishermen can figger out what you're trying to do.They understand lighthouses don't they? Paint the back of the rig like a lighthouse,hehe T.C.
    Don't laugh at the fisnet idea, we lost 400ft. of new 5" LDh on a run a few nights ago and were rigging up a temporary fishnet cargo net the next shift! But someone nixed our idea and put a pick-up bed net across instead. I liked the fishnet, it truly fit the City.

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    Oh,I'm not laughing about that.You get the liberal interpretation.I do remember being sent to the docks by Horace and Hutch to get the fish for that FABULOUS fish chowder. Rockland's a little like the island,either you "fit"or you don't. Being young and opinionated,I really didn't "fit"nor was I going to screw up a good crew to try.Part of me wishes I stayed,it was and still is a great place to work.But I made my mark in other arenas and I've still got friends in the city so all is good with this "short"timer.Pickup net indeed! Who's bit of brilliance was that? T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Who's bit of brilliance was that? T.C.
    C-Shift guys. I'm just glad they didn't stick a NASCRAP logo on it! You weren't part of the famous fish chowder made from de-breading fish sticks and using Creamora and Potato Buds were you? I think you're Capt. Cartman might disown you.

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    If the issue of length is there, get a side mount pump. It will cut down significantly on the wheelbase,. Also see if there is a compact 1250 pump, I thought Hale made one about 40" pump house. Also Speedlays move to x-lays bring the wb shorter too, and no real loss in tactical usage.

    Also you could alway check the cost vs a "Custom" cookie-cutter cab, vs a commercial style. I would alway shoot for under 200 inch wb especially if you need to take the driveways in your response area.

    A little late I guess for my 2 cents.....

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    I have to agree with MG3160 about using the oversize arrowstick on the rigs. We've been putting the standard size arrowsticks on our rigs for a long time, and with the number of lights required on the back of the rig under 1901, most of the time, the "directional effect" is lost. IOW, it just looks like another set of flashing lights on the back of the vehicle.

    In my volly county, the standard now calls for the halogen 72" directional arrow. We went with halogen since it's brighter than LED in amber.

    FWIW, we want to mount a Q2B on our 2000 IH, but the construction of area behind the bumper face wouldn't allow it to be flush-mounted. The size of the station would allow for an extended front bumper and a pedestal-mount Q, so we had to live with electronic only. Oh well....

    As for the headsets, we didn't do them in our 2000 IH 4-door, and honestly, the in-cab communication is acceptable. From a hearing protection standpoint, I generally do advocate the headsets, but in this application, you'll probably be okay.
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    Adam,You Sir have crossed the line with that one.Do you think Hutch and the Honorable Horace Benner would allow fishsticks in the House much less their chowder? I'm insulted that you would even think of such a thing.NO self respecting Rockland firefighter would ever allow it. It's blasphemy!The Dep is now rolling over in his grave! Fishsticks Indeed! T.C.

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