1. #51
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    If that response is not apples to oranges then I don't know bananas.
    Suggest firefighters be armed by the same argument,( for some perceived threat they might be able to subdue ) and...well?
    Last edited by Steamin441; 12-20-2007 at 07:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamin441 View Post
    If that response is not apples to oranges then I don't know bananas.
    Suggest firefighters be armed by the same argument,( for some perceived threat they might be able to subdue ) and...well?
    The point that I was trying to make(if you wuz responding to mine)was that having knowledge about different jobs is not difficult to acquire and is very common.The firefighter/EMT analogy was just a demonstration that you can learn how to don and doff an SCBA unit,spray water on a fire,use an Amkus tool,ventilate a roof or run a pump panel,as well as know how to patch up somebody's ouchies.
    And yes,I have heard anecdotal evidence of firefighters arming themselves during times of strife,the Watts Riots back in the 60s being one example.
    What's yer pernt?That since school shootings occur when an 8th grader gets jilted by his girlfriend(I have numerous friends who were involved at Heath Middle School in Kentucky),then NO ONE should be allowed to have firearms?
    The laws say 18 to buy a long gun and 21 for handgun purchases.The FFL dealers I buy from obey that law but it's the street dealer(I've never heard of any personally with deals like $200 for an M16)that is one way to obtain firearms illegally.When someone shoots up a Bible class,guess who gets the punishment from the BATFE?
    Last edited by doughesson; 12-21-2007 at 03:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    The point that I was trying to make(if you wuz responding to mine)was that having knowledge about different jobs is not difficult to acquire and is very common.The firefighter/EMT analogy was just a demonstration that you can learn how to don and doff an SCBA unit,spray water on a fire,use an Amkus tool,ventilate a roof or run a pump panel,as well as know how to patch up somebody's ouchies.
    And yes,I have heard anecdotal evidence of firefighters arming themselves during times of strife,the Watts Riots back in the 60s being one example.
    What's yer pernt?That since school shootings occur when an 8th grader gets jilted by his girlfriend(I have numerous friends who were involved at Heath Middle School in Kentucky),then NO ONE should be allowed to have firearms?
    The laws say 18 to buy a long gun and 21 for handgun purchases.The FFL dealers I buy from obey that law but it's the street dealer(I've never heard of any personally with deals like $200 for an M16)that is one way to obtain firearms illegally.When someone shoots up a Bible class,guess who gets the punishment from the BATFE?

    My point is I don't want to teach my dog to be a cat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    The laws say 18 to buy a long gun and 21 for handgun purchases.The FFL dealers I buy from obey that law but it's the street dealer(I've never heard of any personally with deals like $200 for an M16)that is one way to obtain firearms illegally.When someone shoots up a Bible class,guess who gets the punishment from the BATFE?
    Which is a great point. We do not need one more stinking gun law in this country. We need a concentrated effort by law enforcement and the judiciary to aggresively enforce the gun laws we already have. That will, without a doubt, reduce gun crime.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Which is a great point. We do not need one more stinking gun law in this country. We need a concentrated effort by law enforcement and the judiciary to aggresively enforce the gun laws we already have. That will, without a doubt, reduce gun crime.
    "Enforce the gun laws we already have" Constant response from the N.R.A. (Protector of the Second Amendment). A platform dating back to the Seventies at least. Maybe should have been the 1870's. The politician that advocates teachers carrying firearms is lazy and not a leader. Allow the government agency charged with protecting public schools to do their mandated job.

    Instead of a rationalization of cross-training Arts Majors, put in place what is needed to provide safe learning.

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    A platform dating back to the Seventies at least. Maybe should have been the 1870's. The politician that advocates teachers carrying firearms is lazy and not a leader. Allow the government agency charged with protecting public schools to do their mandated job.
    Again, a demonstrated singular lack of knowledge about history:
    Back in those days, it was not only acceptable, but common for both pupils and teachers in those days to carry and have "weapons" in their possession in the school house...including rifles. Oops. Doubly so when you consider that at that time, there were no documented school shootings taking place.
    Need I point out that all these "protection agencies" didn't exist until a scant few decades ago? The first, best "protection agency" is yourself.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamin441 View Post
    If that response is not apples to oranges then I don't know bananas.
    Suggest firefighters be armed by the same argument,( for some perceived threat they might be able to subdue ) and...well?
    I guess if they want to. There are some stations in my area that aren't exactly in Mister Roger's neighborhood, if you catch my drift.

    Regarding personal protection:

    We canít realistically suggest to the public that trained professionals (we firefighters) are the best and only hope for them during a house fire. I think almost everyone on here can honestly admit that best hope for someone during a house fire, especially in the first crucial moments, is, well, that very person who is inside the burning house. Provided that they are conscious, have a plan, are able-bodied enough to carry out that plan, and carry it out swiftly before the smoke and/or fire overwhelms them, they will be a far greater asset to their own personal survival than a firefighter who must respond from miles away (who, keep in mind, is also trained to protect firstly himself/herself, then the victim, then the property). But thatís why we teach fire prevention. Thatís why we teach people to get out and stay out. Thatís why we encourage families to have an escape plan and *gasp* actually hold fire drills. Thatís why we hope and pray like hell someone learns something through our lectures and demonstrations, because biggest problem we face is:

    Everyone thinks it will never happen to them, until it does.

    A good save, in my opinion, is when you first arrive on the scene of a burning house at 0204 hours and all of the household members are standing in the driveway, and perhaps a feeling of pride would not be absent should you discover that the kid whose preschool you visited to teach that fire safety lesson last year is among them. But I digress.

    I agree with George on his latest point, and I feel we donít enforce the current gun laws for the same exact reason. We never think it will happen - we just donít check up on firearms dealers to see if they are actually doing the background checks, or maybe if theyíre selling to a guy who knows a guy who wants to own a gun (kind of like buying beer for the kid out in front of the liquor store). Even the dealers themselves are shocked and might even feel a bit guilty when a gun purchased at their store is used to carry out such a heinous act (as was Choís seller). Our society has to be constantly reminded that danger does exist, or we tend to get lax and complacent.

    But why carry a gun if youíve never been shot at? Why own a fire extinguisher if youíve never watched your house burn down?

    Of course, ultimately itís South Carolinaís decision, not mine. Whether or not I agree with it, I canít very well ask the rest of the country to condone or rebuke it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Which is a great point. We do not need one more stinking gun law in this country. We need a concentrated effort by law enforcement and the judiciary to aggresively enforce the gun laws we already have. That will, without a doubt, reduce gun crime.
    Absolute total 100% agreement with you on this George and I just wish it would carry on up above the 49th. Lets just say any crime carried out with violence or threat of violence, including baseball bats, knives, syringes, guns, fake guns whatever the hell these scum use carry an [B][B]automatic MANDATORY sentence of 25 years with no possibility of parole. To cover anyone over the age of say 14. Might at least cut down on repeat offenders with a crime sheet as long as your arm by the time they hit 18
    Last edited by BryanLoader; 12-22-2007 at 12:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Which is a great point. We do not need one more stinking gun law in this country. We need a concentrated effort by law enforcement and the judiciary to aggresively enforce the gun laws we already have. That will, without a doubt, reduce gun crime.
    Amen! I would add only one thing to your statement; aggressively punish those who violate the gun laws. This pansy slap-on-the-wrist crap isn't going to cut it.

    The 14 year-old boy that took the gun into a Joplin, MO middle school, fired it, and tried to shoot the principle is still awaiting trial. While our judiciary is taking their sweet time (allowing the defense to stall), there are a number of people in the community calling for a light punishment (probaton), because "he's only a child." Apparently, there are those in our society who are naive enough to believe a child cannot kill.

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    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke

    Nazi Weapons Act of 1938 (Translated to English)

    Classified guns for "sporting purposes".
    All citizens who wished to purchase firearms had to register with the Nazi officials and have a background check.
    Presumed German citizens were hostile and thereby exempted Nazis from the gun control law.
    Gave Nazis unrestricted power to decide what kinds of firearms could, or could not be owned by private persons.
    The types of ammunition that were legal were subject to control by bureaucrats.
    Juveniles under 18 years could not buy firearms and ammunition.
    "In Tempore"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Amen! I would add only one thing to your statement; aggressively punish those who violate the gun laws. This pansy slap-on-the-wrist crap isn't going to cut it.

    The 14 year-old boy that took the gun into a Joplin, MO middle school, fired it, and tried to shoot the principle is still awaiting trial. While our judiciary is taking their sweet time (allowing the defense to stall), there are a number of people in the community calling for a light punishment (probaton), because "he's only a child." Apparently, there are those in our society who are naive enough to believe a child cannot kill.
    The juvenile justice system, in most cases, is not really set up to punish the offender. It is set up to rehabilitate the offender. If punishment is truly the issue, the child is certified by the court to be prosecuted as an adult. That is the process currently being played out in the Jopln case.

    In NJ, the hurdle that the prosecution must clear in seeking to prosecute a minor in adult court is proving that the child cannot be rehabilitated by the time he is 19. In most cases-especially first offenses, it is almost impossible to show this.

    In the case you cited, the boy was certified to be tried as an adult. The defense appealed the ruling. The case is on hold while the defense is preparing the appeal. This is hardly "stalling".

    The judge is most likely allowing the defense to put together their expert testimony. This is something that can be time consuming and expensive. If the judge does not allow this, he faces an almost certain overturn from the appellate court. It's called due process.

    I am not at all commenting on the guilt or innocence of this child. I am commenting on the process.
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    I think that a lot of your laws vary from state to state so I'll only address a bit of additional info to what George puts out. In Canada, we have whats called the Young Offenders Act, which basically operates on the premise that any offender under 18 cannot form the intent or does not fully comprehend the consequences of their action. As a result, you have gang bangers, punks, just plain no gooders commtitting crimes up to and including killing of all family members, then pleading YOA and getting out of closed custody, ( basically dormitory with cable and rec facilities) at 18, no record and free to go their merry way. We don't have quite the problems with guns up in Canada, knives seem to be weapons of choice. Possibly because the paperwork to get a handgun is nearly insurmountable, only people with proper paperwork ( Say 5 $100 bills) can get. Crimes of violence are quite high, some Canadian cities have passed Detroit which I understand used to be considered Murder Capital of US. As far as I am concerned, any criminal act using violence or threat of violence needs to be dealt with extremely harshly

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    As a result, you have gang bangers, punks, just plain no gooders commtitting crimes up to and including killing of all family members, then pleading YOA and getting out of closed custody, ( basically dormitory with cable and rec facilities) at 18...
    Hah, in the People's Republic of Commiefornia, you get that ("dormitory with cable TV, rec facilities, library, free AA/AS degree, etc") at age 18, 25, 32, 44, 63... and every age in-between. Hell, felons are living better than the lower-class population that hasn't done anything...
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    As a result, you have gang bangers, punks, just plain no gooders commtitting crimes up to and including killing of all family members, then pleading YOA and getting out of closed custody, ( basically dormitory with cable and rec facilities) at 18...
    Hah, in the People's Republic of Commiefornia, you get that ("dormitory with cable TV, rec facilities, library, free AA/AS degree, etc") at age 18, 25, 32, 44, 63... and every age in-between. Hell, felons are living better than the lower-class population that hasn't done anything wrong or criminal...
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    I have been a Teacher in a middle school for 26 years. It is the largest school district in NY.

    I would not want to carry a concealed weapon because I know I wouldn't be able to handle it. I would also fear someone stealing it from me. (Staff included...every profession has it's bad apples.)

    A friend who was NYPD brought me to a firing range once and I tried to use a gun. Not happening for me!

    We have security personnel in all our buildings. We also have "Intruder Alert" drills where they lock the building down and everyone must "hide" in their rooms or wherever they are at the time.

    Another drill we have is where we leave the building, if deemed safer. Obviously, these drills may not help during a real crisis but it gives us some sort of practice. All this started since Columbine.

    When I was growing up, all we had were fire drills and air raid drills. LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHAPPYMOM View Post
    I have been a Teacher in a middle school for 26 years. It is the largest school district in NY.

    I would not want to carry a concealed weapon because I know I wouldn't be able to handle it. I would also fear someone stealing it from me. (Staff included...every profession has it's bad apples.)

    A friend who was NYPD brought me to a firing range once and I tried to use a gun. Not happening for me!

    We have security personnel in all our buildings. We also have "Intruder Alert" drills where they lock the building down and everyone must "hide" in their rooms or wherever they are at the time.

    Another drill we have is where we leave the building, if deemed safer. Obviously, these drills may not help during a real crisis but it gives us some sort of practice. All this started since Columbine.

    When I was growing up, all we had were fire drills and air raid drills. LOL.


    My point exactly. Let the teachers teach. We all have our jobs to do.








    What is implied by this thread suggestion in South Carolina is that law enforcement cannot do it's job. B.S. They can. Look to them. Teachers whether they can,or are teachable,or feel the need,should not be armed in the classroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHAPPYMOM View Post
    Another drill we have is where we leave the building, if deemed safer. Obviously, these drills may not help during a real crisis but it gives us some sort of practice. All this started since Columbine.
    I remember Columbine. The local school system here reacted by setting up mobile walk-thru metal detectors at the entrances and having more LEOs present on the campuses (no, they didn't hire more, they just pulled some off of the streets). We had drills, including one where, upon cue by a secret code word over the intercoms, we cut the lights off, lock the doors, and go to the back of the classroom and kept quiet. Yep, I was quite confident that we would be totally safe if our H.S. campus was ever invaded by a complete brain-dead idiot with no deductive abilities. I mean, pretty soon he would have had to realize that there must be students in at least one classroom that day. Again, this was probably another great idea from some quack author of a book on survival techniques and curling up into little balls, and the Dept. of Education ran with it. Eventually, maybe less than a month later, the extra resource officers were returned to life on the beat, and those metal detectors, well, we don't have a clue what happened to them.

    On a brighter note, I salute you for thus far surviving 26 years of dealing with middle schoolers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodSendRain View Post
    On a brighter note, I salute you for thus far surviving 26 years of dealing with middle schoolers.
    Thanks ~ I also teach emotionally disturbed teens.

    GodSendRain ~ One of the questions the staff had when we were getting "training" was: What if the intruder or deranged person was one of US? They didn't have any answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHAPPYMOM View Post
    Thanks ~ I also teach emotionally disturbed teens.

    GodSendRain ~ One of the questions the staff had when we were getting "training" was: What if the intruder or deranged person was one of US? They didn't have any answers.
    I would imagine, based on previous school shootings/incidents all over the world, that the chances would be quite high that the threat would be coming from an insider, be it student, teacher, previous student .... So they would be familiar with the lock-down procedures. I suppose the possibility exists that the perpetrator wouldn't be in the right state of mind while executing his/her plan to remember those details in the heat of the moment though.

    Thanks for sharing your teacher's viewpoint with us. You touched on one of my main objections to arming teachers ... the gun could so easily be stolen and used for the very scenario it was meant to stop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    ...You touched on one of my main objections to arming teachers ... the gun could so easily be stolen and used for the very scenario it was meant to stop.
    Especially when PMS kicks in, on the same day, for a dozen of us. LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHAPPYMOM View Post
    Especially when PMS kicks in, on the same day, for a dozen of us. LOL.
    LOL well there IS that.

    But I was thinking more along the lines of a disgruntled student getting easy access to a weapon than staff or faculty members.
    September 11th - Never Forget

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHAPPYMOM View Post
    Thanks ~ I also teach emotionally disturbed teens.

    GodSendRain ~ One of the questions the staff had when we were getting "training" was: What if the intruder or deranged person was one of US? They didn't have any answers.
    That was a unique question, but wouldn't it have been more of a rhetorical, perhaps even comical, question? I'm not completely surprised that they had no answers to that question - I wouldn't either - making the assumption that everyone attending those "training" sessions had a preventative mindset, and not the mischevious mindset of working against the security measures discussed and plotting to turn the system over on itself. Certainly there would be a very legitimate, real-life concern behind such a question if you had/have staff members or students exhibiting those latter, shall I say, unfavorable characteristics; it's always a good idea to refer those mental time-bombs to counseling, rather than simply hope they don't flip out one day (whether they have firearms or not). I had teachers who would become frustrated over the increased demands put on them by the teacher review and curriculum committees, so much so that they would come into the classroom griping and sighing openly in the presence of students, but I never once felt that those teachers, who loved to teach regardless of the stress and would never hurt the students placed under their care (teachers not unlike yourself, I suppose), would ever get deranged over it and go off the deep end.

    Regardless, this may be old news for the state of South Carolina (this bill was introduced in May-ish?).
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodSendRain View Post
    That was a unique question, but wouldn't it have been more of a rhetorical, perhaps even comical, question?
    Yes. My sense of humor often carries me through. (Note my PMS reference.)

    The staff of 140 in my building is well versed in watching for signs of stress in any individual. This includes custodial staff, cafeteria staff, students, etc. We have averted one or two situations which had the potential for disaster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodSendRain View Post
    That was a unique question, but wouldn't it have been more of a rhetorical, perhaps even comical, question? I'm not completely surprised that they had no answers to that question - I wouldn't either - making the assumption that everyone attending those "training" sessions had a preventative mindset, and not the mischevious mindset of working against the security measures discussed and plotting to turn the system over on itself. Certainly there would be a very legitimate, real-life concern behind such a question if you had/have staff members or students exhibiting those latter, shall I say, unfavorable characteristics; it's always a good idea to refer those mental time-bombs to counseling, rather than simply hope they don't flip out one day (whether they have firearms or not). I had teachers who would become frustrated over the increased demands put on them by the teacher review and curriculum committees, so much so that they would come into the classroom griping and sighing openly in the presence of students, but I never once felt that those teachers, who loved to teach regardless of the stress and would never hurt the students placed under their care (teachers not unlike yourself, I suppose), would ever get deranged over it and go off the deep end.

    Regardless, this may be old news for the state of South Carolina (this bill was introduced in May-ish?).


    The State Assembly is about to start their second year of this session. I'll get an update.

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