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    Default Teachers with Guns?

    Some legislator at the South Carolina Capitol is suggesting that teachers be armed in the classroom. How long before little Johnny figures out there is a handgun in Miss Longwells' handbag and helps himself to it? Please, we have enough insanity without this idea.

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    If he's that kind of person, it won't matter. He'll get a gun from somewhere. Kids like your Little Johnny are the reason teachers should be permitted to carry.

    ...and if the teacher keeps it in a purse or desk drawer, maybe they shouldn't be carrying.
    Last edited by davjohnson; 12-14-2007 at 02:20 PM.

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    You think that teachers don't have crazy ex girlfriends/boyfriends,wives/husbands or some forgotten classmate that won't let go?If someone doesn't tell their co workers or "company"security that "So and so and I aren't together.They don't need to get into my vehicle.",they might get past security with"Oh,I'm surprising her today.Don't say anything if you don't have to.".
    Or maybe some total stranger might have some perceived grudge and get into the school.Remember the Amish school that got shot up?What did those folks do to him?
    My sister used to teach at a North Memphis elementary school.The little Johnnys and Jennys didn't like white people and left notes about what they'd do to her if they had five minutes.She doesn't like the fact that I even own firearms but she was wanting my advice on pepper sprays,stun guns and firearms so she could feel safe from her own students.She left before the second grading period was up.
    Too often,state laws regulate carrying non lethal or less lethal devices just as they do firearms so if you want to carry OC spray,a CCDW permit is required.
    Just because someone is wanting to allow firearms in school doesn't mean that teachers will be shooting students for talking in class or forgetting their homework just one time too often.If that were the case,I sure wouldn't be here.
    Concealled carry classes also teach how to secure firearms when you are not physically carrying it around or have to leave it out of your sight and presence.I doubt teachers would be leaving their S&W 629 out on their desk when they slip out to the teacher's lounge for a Fresca.
    If they are trustworthy enough to teach your kids the Three R's,why wouldn't you trust them with a firearm for their personal protection,if they know that they have a threat?
    To paraphrase a noted gun writer/police officer to fit this situation:
    Are YOU so mentally unbalanced as to shoot Little Johnny for forgetting his homework?
    If you are,what are you doing teaching kids instead of being treated for your condition?
    If you are not,what qualifies you to assume that your kid's teacher IS?

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    If the teacher has a conceal and carry permit I see nothing wrong with it. I don't think we need to go teaching teachers how to carry and issue them weapons though.
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    Don't forget, the mall and VTech shootings happened in a Gun-Free Zone!

    Which meant the only person with a gun... was the one who took it in with the intention of killing people.

    Just like your kid's school.
    Last edited by emt161; 12-14-2007 at 09:53 PM.

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    Cool Teachers with Guns.....

    I personally like the idea and would support it.....

    My sister and brother are both Teachers and I doubt that either of them would actually carry due to it being a very Liberal profession. It would take a disaster in their actual classrooms before they would even consider caring..... On the other hand, I'd only have to hear a rumour that the school I was working at was gonna allow me to carry while at work..... LOL.

    I say leave it up to the Teachers..... If one wants to carry, then the District should provide the training and cover the cost. If not, then the Districts should find another way to make the Teachers and Students safe.
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    Even Students are wanting Concealed Carry

    http://concealedcampus.org/
    "In Tempore"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarfoot View Post
    Even Students are wanting Concealed Carry

    http://concealedcampus.org/
    After the VT shooting, there was a temporary movement in the college world to allow those eligible to carry concealed. While I'll be getting my CCW permit shortly, there are some nuts at school I do not want carrying. I can see a classroom argument getting ugly very quickly.
    Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

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    This is one of the most reckless ideas I have ever seen. There is a far simpler and far safer answer to this than bringing guns into the school.

    Invest money in school security.

    1. Perimeter security in most non-urban schools is pathetic. A buzzer on the door controlled by a secretary too lazy to get out of her chair is not security. One access point. Security personnel at that access point to verify ID and to escort the visitor to the proper area.

    2. School ID's. All personnel and students required to visibly wear an ovious ID badge at all times.

    3. Surveillance cameras that are actually monitored for suspicious or unlawful activity.

    By security personnel, I am not necessarily talking about police.

    Please keep this issue in perspective. Inn 99.99999% of all the schools in this country, there will never be an incident involving weapons. Prevention is the key.

    Deter. Detect Delay. Deny.
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    Why are many of us so against the idea of responsible, law-abiding, and competent citizens carrying weapons in this country???

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    One day, Americans will get tired of playing the victim's role. I don't know when it will be, maybe not in my life time, but one day, Americans will become tired of being victims.
    "Yeah, but as I've always said, this country has A.D.D." - Denis Leary

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    I'm not against law abiding, competant, responsible citizens carrying a firearm. I'm against teachers become the police of the school districts. All it will take after this is one incident of one teacher getting too fed up, too frustrated, too anything, and popping a round off (and don't say that won't happen, we all know there are people who have the permit who shouldn't be carrying, just like there are teachers who shouldn't be teaching), and everyone would be up in arms about how rediculous and stupid it is to arm teachers.

    I tend to agree with George here. Why is it, when violence coems up, we americans seem to just want to arm everyone to the teeth, but at the same time insist, that will lead to less violence? Letting any teacher with a permit bring their gun to class is only going to lead to one place, tragedy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jerry4184 View Post
    Why is it, when violence coems up, we americans seem to just want to arm everyone to the teeth, but at the same time insist, that will lead to less violence? Letting any teacher with a permit bring their gun to class is only going to lead to one place, tragedy.
    Likewise, why is it when violence comes up, Americans think that good people with sanity who want to carry guns to protect themselves are going to increase violence merely with the presence of more guns? I plead Utah's case. They have guns on college campuses with practically no gun-related incidents. It seems like the argument that more guns will inevitably lead to more violence is unfounded and untested.
    "Yeah, but as I've always said, this country has A.D.D." - Denis Leary

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    Quote Originally Posted by davjohnson View Post
    Why are many of us so against the idea of responsible, law-abiding, and competent citizens carrying weapons in this country???
    I am 100% in favor of responsible gun ownership and use. However, in this case, the unspoken reason for carrying the weapon is not simply responsible gun ownership and use. It is quasi vigilantiism.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I am 100% in favor of responsible gun ownership and use. However, in this case, the unspoken reason for carrying the weapon is not simply responsible gun ownership and use. It is quasi vigilantiism.
    Guess I don't see it like that George. I see it as a matter of self-protection and protecting others, such as the students and other staff in the original post. Vigilantes take the law into their own hands without the benefit of due process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KEEPBACK200FEET View Post
    After the VT shooting, there was a temporary movement in the college world to allow those eligible to carry concealed. While I'll be getting my CCW permit shortly, there are some nuts at school I do not want carrying. I can see a classroom argument getting ugly very quickly.
    Well, that same argument goes against you getting your CCW. After all, if a lot of people have CCWs without "good cause", you'll see fender-benders becoming street-corner shootouts, right?
    Oh wait, "Right to Carry" states haven't had that problem...yet...it's only a matter of time, right? Yep...it's been years, decades even in the cases of some states, but it's there, just waiting to happen.

    Of course, the same argument goes against allowing pilots to carry on their aircraft...

    And as I was taught in the police academy: there's always at least one gun present at every call--yours.
    So obviously, if the call is a nonviolent one, a "cold" report, say, you should lock your sidearm in the trunk, right? Safety first... you can carry this to as ridiculous an extreme as you like...
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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    Quote Originally Posted by davjohnson View Post
    Guess I don't see it like that George. I see it as a matter of self-protection and protecting others, such as the students and other staff in the original post. Vigilantes take the law into their own hands without the benefit of due process.
    According to the National School Safety Center, there were 10 school shooting incidents in 2003 and 13 in 2004. Compare this with the thousands of schools and the tens of thousands of teachers and the hundreds of thousands of students. It is miniscule and statistically irrelevant. (I am not saying the victims are irrelevant, so please don't anyone even start that nonsense).

    There is also zero proof that the carrying of weapons by teachers would have prevented any of these deaths. They may not have. There are several things to think about.

    1. There is more to an armed encounter than pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger. Police officers go through many hours of training in tactical operations for armed encounters. In most of these encounters, the teachers, minimally trained in armed encounters, would be on the defensive and at a tactical disadvantage.

    2. How do most of these situations end? That's right. The shooter kills himself. How would death be a deterent in that situation?

    3. Guns are like fires in that the safest gun is the gun that is not permitted into the school. Once that gun is inside the school building, it is over. By focusing on perimeter security, keeping the guns and bad guys out will go along way to preventing the incident in the first place.

    4. How long do these incidents last? The Columbine incident was an anomaly. The actual shooting lasted approx. 40 minutes. Most of these encounters last a very short period of time.

    5. Remember, at Columbine, there was a trained, armed officer on the scene within minutes of the commencement of the shooting. He encountered the shooters while they were entering the building from the parking lot. Because he was in a defensive position, he was ineffective in terminating the incident.

    6. The general attitude of educators runs counter to this bill, and to school security in general. I was assigned to give a school violence lecture along with a member of the bomb squad to teachers at a large Jr. HS in North Jersey. I arrived approx. 30 miins. prior to my start time. I was in plainclothes. I walked into the front door (that was propped open), walked past the office, walked past the unmanned desk where visitors are supposed to be signed in. I then walked almost every hallway in the school. I passed teachers and staff members. The strongest challenge I received from anyone was "Good morning". Then they were ****ed at me for doing it when I talked about it at the class.

    7. Deter. Detect. Delay. Deny.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    1. There is more to an armed encounter than pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger. Police officers go through many hours of training in tactical operations for armed encounters. In most of these encounters, the teachers, minimally trained in armed encounters, would be on the defensive and at a tactical disadvantage.
    George--I think anyone "formally trained" in "tactical operations for armed encounters", and who has subsequently been actually involved in said "tactical operation", would agree that the training they received, in comparison to the actual experience itself, would qualify as "minimal". There's an old saying in the Army: after three firefights, you either have a seasoned Soldier, or a dead one.
    Further, why would a teacher be at a "tactical disadvantage"? Most such shootings as schools and the recent mall shooting, are perpetrated by young civilian males, with no "formal training in tactical operations for armed encounters" other than playing Rainbow Six, SOCOM, or Halo3 (which I think we can all--those of us who are rational, anyways--agree provide no realistic value for training) on the XBOX 360.
    Therefore, theoretically at least, the untrained civilian teacher and the untrained civilian psycho-shooter should be on a level playing field.

    2. How do most of these situations end? That's right. The shooter kills himself. How would death be a deterent in that situation?
    Simple--if you kill him before he can kill others, that deters him, factually, from killing those innocents, right? That is, after all, the rationale behind an officer using deadly force, is it not? To "stop the threat"?

    6. The general attitude of educators runs counter to this bill, and to school security in general. I was assigned to give a school violence lecture along with a member of the bomb squad to teachers at a large Jr. HS in North Jersey. I arrived approx. 30 miins. prior to my start time. I was in plainclothes. I walked into the front door (that was propped open), walked past the office, walked past the unmanned desk where visitors are supposed to be signed in. I then walked almost every hallway in the school. I passed teachers and staff members. The strongest challenge I received from anyone was "Good morning". Then they were ****ed at me for doing it when I talked about it at the class.
    User-friendly society, ya know? Nobody wants to be perceived as "on the offensive", "hostile", or "unwelcoming". After all, you might complain about them if they stopped you to ask what you were doing or to see your credentials....

    7. Deter. Detect. Delay. Deny.
    How bout: Deter. Detect. Defend. Destroy.
    I like my version much better.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Default Give the Education System Back!!

    I'm totally against this idea and I'll go into my reasoning later. The biggest problem is our education system, ( I speak of Canada here, I'm not that sure about USA ) has been hijacked since the early 70's by professional educators. I Canada, kids basically cannot be held back because of self esteem, they cannot be verbally chastised, same reason and a strap on the wrist would probably automaticaaly reinstate a special death sentence reopening in Canada. Children in 5 and 6 grades tell teachers to F--- off, the language in a classroom would probably make an oil rigger blush, and thatsthe girls. The parents can do nothing, they complain, the school boards, professional educators all, nod their heads and pat them on the shoulder and assure them that their vast knowledge from the fabled ivory tower allows them insights lesser mortals cannot comprehend.
    Bring back DISCIPLINE!!! If a kid acts up, suspend him for a day, acts up again suspend him for the year. If they commit physical violence, prefer charges as much as the law will allow. If the parents don't want to accept responsibility, turn it over to child services, but let the teacher and parent run the damn school, not professional educators. Translate More bureaucratic pogues.
    As far as allowing teachers to pack, itsasinine, we seem to be pretty able with the use of metal detectors to keep airlines and I guess now some train terminal safe. Decent security following Georges sugesstion should not be that onerous as long as it is diligent.

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    I Canada, kids basically cannot be held back because of self esteem, they cannot be verbally chastised, same reason and a strap on the wrist would probably automaticaaly reinstate a special death sentence reopening in Canada. Children in 5 and 6 grades tell teachers to F--- off, the language in a classroom would probably make an oil rigger blush, and thatsthe girls. The parents can do nothing, they complain, the school boards, professional educators all, nod their heads and pat them on the shoulder and assure them that their vast knowledge from the fabled ivory tower allows them insights lesser mortals cannot comprehend.
    See, and everybody says Canada is so different from America. You just described exactly what goes on in American schools too. Glad to know we're not alone in terms of how screwed up things really are.

    Oh, but it gets better: discipline starts at home, right? Not in America. If you spank your kid once on the backside, next thing you know, the police and a Child Protective Service agent are banging down your door, carting you off to jail for "child abuse", and the kid off to a foster home. Hah.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    George--I think anyone "formally trained" in "tactical operations for armed encounters", and who has subsequently been actually involved in said "tactical operation", would agree that the training they received, in comparison to the actual experience itself, would qualify as "minimal". There's an old saying in the Army: after three firefights, you either have a seasoned Soldier, or a dead one.
    Further, why would a teacher be at a "tactical disadvantage"? Most such shootings as schools and the recent mall shooting, are perpetrated by young civilian males, with no "formal training in tactical operations for armed encounters" other than playing Rainbow Six, SOCOM, or Halo3 (which I think we can all--those of us who are rational, anyways--agree provide no realistic value for training) on the XBOX 360.
    Therefore, theoretically at least, the untrained civilian teacher and the untrained civilian psycho-shooter should be on a level playing field.

    I'm certain that, as a trained LEO, you are very much aware that the untrained civilian in an offensive position is at a far greater advantage than the person who is on the defensive. I would argue that is the case regardless of their level of training. That is why the SRO at Columbine could not be effective-he was on the defensive.

    Simple--if you kill him before he can kill others, that deters him, factually, from killing those innocents, right? That is, after all, the rationale behind an officer using deadly force, is it not? To "stop the threat"?

    I am talking about deterence in the context of stopping the bad guy before he gets his guns into the school. If he is intent on committing suicide anyway, the prospect of being killed by a teacher may even make it more attractive. This is what happens in the classic "suicide by cop" situations.

    You can't possibly be arguing that it is better to allow the shooter to get in, begin shooting and then have someone cap him than it is to prevent the shooting in the first place, can you?



    User-friendly society, ya know? Nobody wants to be perceived as "on the offensive", "hostile", or "unwelcoming". After all, you might complain about them if they stopped you to ask what you were doing or to see your credentials....

    I have 4 kids. There is not a chance I would complain. But I get your point

    How bout: Deter. Detect. Defend. Destroy.
    I like my version much better.

    Have you ever shot someone? Have you ever talked to anyone who did? Did they have fun or would they have preferred that the suspect was prevented from putting him in that position in the first place?
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    Idea!
    All parents attending school board meetings to be issued Tasers

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    It's unrealistic to think you can stop someone who's intent on doing whatever it is they want to do, including mass murder. There was a recent attempt in a Colorado church where the gunman, with multiple weapons and 1000 rounds, was stopped by an armed citizen. That citizen saved countless other lives.

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    I know this analogy is a leap but I am a remnant of Vietnam. This policy if it ever goes anywhere is like getting out the napalm for an ant hill. To the extreme. Public schools are a matter of government. Leave law and order to trained government professionals. Not that 'zero tolerance' is always a good idea. -Nail file gets you expelled- and a record. WTF??
    Teachers have a calling,(we hope) to teach our youngsters. For most it is a lifetime job. Imagine the majority of public school teachers being in the twenty plus age range.(just guessing by looking around my district) We are asking them to carry a pistol? Times are changing yes but put in the protection as a layer so our teachers can teach. Sheesh.
    Requirements for Teaching B.A.- the usual and you must qualify for CWP. Would you prefer a revolver or an automatic?

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    Cool Recent Evidence.....

    Originally added by davjohnson:
    It's unrealistic to think you can stop someone who's intent on doing whatever it is they want to do, including mass murder. There was a recent attempt in a Colorado church where the gunman, with multiple weapons and 1000 rounds, was stopped by an armed citizen. That citizen saved countless other lives.
    This would be recent evidence of 1 individual that was armed, at the right spot at the right time and willing to act. Honestly, just because you are carrying doesn't necessarily mean that you will act... I've personally been on calls where somebody was carrying legally and never pulled the weapon.

    Along with carrying, I'd also like to see teachers get hand-to-hand combat or some type of self defense training.....

    I've heard there are 2 towns or cities in America that have an ordinance that all residences and persons will have firearms and carry. I've been told they have the lowest crime rate. Can anybody confirm this? The names of the towns or cities would be great. I seem to remember 1 was in Texas and the other was either in Utah or Florida.....

    Originally added by the1141man:
    Oh, but it gets better: discipline starts at home, right? Not in America. If you spank your kid once on the backside, next thing you know, the police and a Child Protective Service agent are banging down your door, carting you off to jail for "child abuse", and the kid off to a foster home. Hah.
    How many of our elders here even had to consider this while they were raising their kids? It's unacceptable, we need to take our Country back..... I'm gettin' tired of the vocal minority (not gonna mention the Liberals, because not all of them feel this way) deciding what the majority has to do. What will it take for the majority to finally stand-up and say "We're takin' our Country back....." and if you don't like it, then leave or remain silent and realize you are the minority. This great Country operates on the majority vote..... Oh yeah, down with the Electoral College Voting System also..... LMAO
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

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