1. #1

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    Default Crimson Tanker vs Rosenbauer/Central States Tanker

    My volunteer fire company received an AFG award for a new tanker. We have spoken and received specks from several dealers. Right now, we are trying to decide between Crimson and Rosenbauer/Central States. We have already decided to use a Mack chassis that both dealers have specked the same. Basically, the tanker will have a 3000-gallon tank, 1250 pump, some pre-connects, and storage for equipment. The Rosenbauer/Central States is cheaper and has more of the items we want (high side compartments, extended front bumper with trashline), but I know the dealer for Crimson as a respectable, competent, honest mechanic for our older (previously owned and well used) apparatus. The Rosenbauer/Central States dealer is an honest, competent, respectable fire chief in the area. This will be the first brand new piece our fire company has ever purchased and we have very little extra spending money. We are trying to get the best quality “bang for our buck.” Any opinions (and I know there are opinions) as to which is the better tanker?

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    They both make good apparatus. Buy the one that has what you want in their proposal. If one of them didn't bid something you wanted, they could have.

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    I am not going to say that one brand is better than the other, but they do utilize different body construction methods. Look at both carefully and decide which is best for your needs, call volume, etc.
    I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

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    As per the AFG's guidelines a tanker can only have a max of 750gpm pump. If this was awarded as a tanker please call your FEMA rep and make sure before you proceed.
    YOU ONLY NEED TO BE STUPID ONCE TO BE DEAD FOREVER!

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    Default Thanks

    Thank you all for your input. All that I have read on the forum seem to say that all manufacturers have their great apparatus and a few "lemons." The recurring theme that appears in postings is service. I understand that AFG requires a tanker to have no greater than a 750 gpm pump. Sorry I did not make this clear in the original posting, but the pump will be rated 750, although it will be capable of 1250 gpm and will have the discharges for 1250. We have been advised that AFG is only concerned about the "sticker" that goes on the side of the pump that states "750 gpm" and not the number of discharges. Once again though, thank you for your point. We are working hard to get the best vehicle for the company. This will be the first brand new vehicle of any kind our fire company has purchased.

    Just to give you an idea of our town, we are a rural community with 2550 people, no hydrants in town, large residential population, a few farms, a few businesses. We also have an underground Sunoco pipeline that carries various forms of fuel at different times, as well as supplying fuel to a close by international airport (with in 10 nautical miles). Mostly, we have motor vehicle crashes, brush fires, and some structure fires as our higher call volumes. We operate one engine, one tanker, one brush truck, and one brush tanker. We do not have much extra spending money, so we are looking for the biggest bang for our buck. There are some Crimson apparatus in the area as well as Rosenbauer/ Central States.

    Thanks again for any input.

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    Ramfire, your answer is not exactly correct. Afg rules state that you have to meet all the goals :ie minimum specs that were awarded in the grant application. AFG will & does allow depts to increase tank/pump etc if you can still meet the objectives in the application. I suggest confirming this in the grant froum w/BC-79er or Kurt Bradley, they are the grant gurus. gp ebfd-624

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    MTZIONC2, congrats on your depts award. gp ebfd-624

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    MtZionC2

    Congrats on the award. Regarding your question Crimson vs. Rosenbauer. There is a department next to me that is a Rosenbauer customer on the product you are seeking. They buy multiple trucks every year and the tankers are built on Mack chassis! Email me your contact info and I will have the chief get in touch with you.

    Elwood@twlakes.net

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMT377 View Post
    Ramfire, your answer is not exactly correct. Afg rules state that you have to meet all the goals :ie minimum specs that were awarded in the grant application. AFG will & does allow depts to increase tank/pump etc if you can still meet the objectives in the application. I suggest confirming this in the grant froum w/BC-79er or Kurt Bradley, they are the grant gurus. gp ebfd-624
    Actually, from the discussion in the grant forums that included Bryan and Kurt, RAM is right. Of course, there are ways that it is acceptable: if it was defined in the narrative, etc. However, it's a really good idea to get with the AFG contact and make sure. I'm sure Bryan and Kurt would give the same advise.

    We bought a Rosenbauer (Central Division) pumper/tanker with the help of an '05 AFG award. We absolutely love the truck! At the time, we were limited on the funding (we initially asked for a wetside) and had to do some work to get into a full pumper-body unit. Well, we did it and then some. Crimson wouldn't bid a pumper body, the salesman said there was no way he could do it in our price range. Very few actually pulled it off, with Rosenbauer getting the bid.

    Ours is a 2,500 gallon on a KW chassis and a Waterous 1,750 top-mount pump, rear dump, fold-down dump tank holder, rear dump, and full pumper compartments. If you'll visit the Grants forum and search for a "show us what you got" thread, you'll see it (it's also in Rosenbauer's '07 tanker brochure) as well as some other similar trucks. A guy in there (mitchkrat) has a sister truck to it. NEIOWA is going through some of the same stuff you are, speccing a pumper/tanker, except he's dealing with CAFS.

    I'm sure all of the guys listed above (and probably more) would be more than willing to help you out with any information you would want. Feel free to drop me a PM/email if you want to know more about our rig. I'll be glad to help you out any way I can and share any info you would like.
    Last edited by Catch22; 12-21-2007 at 09:43 AM. Reason: Cited the wrong name; Sorry mitchkrat!

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    Default Like our Rosenbauer/Central States

    We ran into the same thing with our pumper/tanker in 2005 - Rosenbauer was the only group that would customize the truck and give us more bang for our buck. We also got a KW with 2500 gallons and a 1250 side controlled pump with dumps on sides and back. We also speced a rear suction that has worked our really nice. Only regret was that we got electric dump valves with manual chutes - other than that the truck has been great.

    Our neighbors have Crimson and love them - I think we got a few more features than they did for less $$.

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    Apples-to-apples, I think Crimson builds a better quality unit. That being said, if you can get more bang for the buck, buy what will serve your community better. Rosey/Central is far less quality than a Rosey/General body.

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    We have a 1991 central states 1000/1000 engine . this truck has performed very well for us, with next to no issues. It is not a customized war wagon , just an efficient well designed and constructed fire truck. Don't know how things might have changed since rosenbauer bought in.
    I would probably choose the builder that most closely meets your needs and spec. Also a biggie is your local dealer and the after sale service. Talk to recent buyers and see if the support is there after you hand them the final payment!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Actually, from the discussion in the grant forums that included Bryan and Kurt, RAM is right. Of course, there are ways that it is acceptable: if it was defined in the narrative, etc. However, it's a really good idea to get with the AFG contact and make sure. I'm sure Bryan and Kurt would give the same advise.
    In our narrative, we justified a need for the larger pump. We said a minimum of 750 gpm. We were planning to go with a 1250gpm. However, I had to certify that we would not exceed 750gpm. I had an email to The director who informed me that if we put a pump in any larger than 750 gpm, we would be changing the scope of our award and the new unit would now be in the pumper category. This is with a 3000 gallon tank. I dont like the rule, but am satisfied to be replacing our tanker.

    Kelly
    Last edited by imafireman; 12-21-2007 at 12:17 PM. Reason: mispelled word

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    Default 1250 vs 750 pump

    Simple solution. Spec a Waterous CS pump rated at 750 gpm with 6" inlets and 5 discharges. Just because a pump is rated at a specific gallonage does not mean that it cannot do more! I think the Waterous people will tell you the same thing.

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    Default Congrats

    Quote Originally Posted by mtzionc2 View Post
    The Rosenbauer/Central States is cheaper and has more of the items we want (high side compartments, extended front bumper with trashline), but I know the dealer for Crimson as a respectable, competent, honest mechanic for our older (previously owned and well used) apparatus. The Rosenbauer/Central States dealer is an honest, competent, respectable fire chief in the area.

    We are trying to get the best quality “bang for our buck.”
    I want to applaud you for doing your homework on the two dealers. I would put those results ahead of a few inconsequential options (of course your department can decide what is sigificant and what is not).

    Can't offer much in the advice on tankers, but I wanted to commend you on selection methods on this project and your wanting to be good stewards with finite resources.

    C6

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    Quote Originally Posted by imafireman View Post
    In our narrative, we justified a need for the larger pump. We said a minimum of 750 gpm. We were planning to go with a 1250gpm. However, I had to certify that we would not exceed 750gpm. I had an email to The director who informed me that if we put a pump in any larger than 750 gpm, we would be changing the scope of our award and the new unit would now be in the pumper category. This is with a 3000 gallon tank. I dont like the rule, but am satisfied to be replacing our tanker.

    Kelly
    You were one of them I had in mind when I made that post. NEIOWA and his CAFS monster was the other. Because of his narrative, I guess they're allowing him to have the 3000 gallons and the big pump due to how he put everything in his narrative.

    I still think it's a crock on yours and many others who are getting dropped on the gpm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandinmyboots View Post
    Simple solution. Spec a Waterous CS pump rated at 750 gpm with 6" inlets and 5 discharges. Just because a pump is rated at a specific gallonage does not mean that it cannot do more! I think the Waterous people will tell you the same thing.
    Good point. I'm not sure what can and can't be done. It might be possible to buy a pump that is capable of 1250 GPM pump but have it de-rated to a 750GPM pump and UL'd as a 750 GPM.

    I don't know the rules but it's possible it could work. On the other hand, maybe you should just be thankful and take what they'll give you. Either way...Congrats!

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddmcbr View Post
    Good point. I'm not sure what can and can't be done. It might be possible to buy a pump that is capable of 1250 GPM pump but have it de-rated to a 750GPM pump and UL'd as a 750 GPM.
    With Waterous, I believe that there is one basic pump (the center section) that is used for everything up to and including 1250 gpm. There is another that is used for everything from 1250 through 2250. I think Hale is pretty much the same. I don't know what Darley or Rosenbauer do.

    The difference in each group is the peripheral plumbing (intake castings, number of discharges, etc. Within each group the cost to go to the largest gpm capability is little more than the cost of the plumbing. One reason some people don't go above 1500 (us included) is that it takes two sets of sleeves to conduct a service test.

    Gregg Geske, npfd801, anything to contribute?

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home.
    Last edited by chiefengineer11; 12-22-2007 at 09:31 PM.

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    CE11,

    You forgot one thing, pump transmission gear ratio. The more water you want, the faster the impeller must spin, plus everything else you mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleEVT View Post
    CE11,

    You forgot one thing, pump transmission gear ratio. The more water you want, the faster the impeller must spin, plus everything else you mentioned.
    No doubt you're right on that one. Along with that, horsepower to turn the pump that fast, against that much load. For example, on ours, we have a 430 hp engine. It easily handles 1500, would support 2000 gpm, but not 2250 (in deference, that's U.S. gallons).

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    The difference in each group is the peripheral plumbing (intake castings, number of discharges, etc. Within each group the cost to go to the largest gpm capability is little more than the cost of the plumbing. One reason some people don't go above 1500 (us included) is that it takes two sets of sleeves to conduct a service test.

    Gregg Geske, npfd801, anything to contribute?

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home.
    I think you could have more to gain if you went with a pedestal or "unmanifolded" style of pump. For example, the Hale DSD series is rated from 750 to 1500 gpm. The similar Waterous I believe goes up to 1250 gpm. Your builder builds both the intake and discharge manifolds out of galvanized or stainless piping, instead of the pump coming complete with this plumbing for the discharges.

    So if the housing and basic guts of the pump are the same for all its rated flows (and I do not know this for a fact), and FEMA refuses to allow the higher discharge rating, have the apparatus builder fabricate the discharge manifold with capped outlets so you can add additional outlets at a later date to get the max rating of the pump. In the grand sceme of things, it wouldn't be THAT hard to add additional discharges to the sides of the pump or maybe to the front of the hosebed. You likely won't be less than 330 horsepower, and that will drive 1250 gpm fine. Just make sure you size your pump to tank adequately to use the flow you want to achieve.

    Why the grant folks wouldn't allow you to bump pump capacity for minimal impact on overall apparatus cost, I don't know. Sell it for safety, justify that maybe the tanker could be utilized in a relay pumping scenario in certain circumstances, or be a backup pump that could pump through the attack engine if a failure occurred... If you have only one engine, this could be nice little safety net.

    Everything I've seen when my department needed to tweak something on our grants (none of which were rigs though) it seemed like our contact was more than willing to work with us, as long as we didn't stray too far from the original intent.

    Surely someone reading these forums has been through this, and can offer more. I would start first by contacting your FEMA contact, and see what that individual has to say. It isn't like you're asking for additional money, right?
    I'm just throwing some ideas out for more discussion...
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    I think you could have more to gain if you went with a pedestal or "unmanifolded" style of pump. For example, the Hale DSD series is rated from 750 to 1500 gpm. The similar Waterous I believe goes up to 1250 gpm. Your builder builds both the intake and discharge manifolds out of galvanized or stainless piping, instead of the pump coming complete with this plumbing for the discharges.
    Good points. I still think in terms of CM(U)/CS(U) or QLD/QSD.

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    Default Rating of Pump

    Brothers - some great suggestions. But how many pumpers have you seen with a 1250 pump and have the standard discharge compliment: 2 on the left, 2 on the right, 2 preconnects to the rear, 3" deck gun, 2 2" crosslays and many have a 2" front discharge. Now, if we rate on the number of 2.5 discharges, then you have 7 - which would give you an output, if all are used, at 1750 gpm.
    Now all of us know that a pump only puts out what it can get in. Which is why, in order to rate a pump from draft in excess of 1500 gpm you need two 6" intakes in the water - am I right?
    My information, if correct, is that the Waterous CS and the Hale QMID pumps use the same componentry from 750 gpm through 1250 gpm. The major difference is the inlet (4.5", 5" or 6") and the outlets. When doing the pump acceptance test, UL (or other certifing agency) performance test, to certify the pump at 750 would require only the use of a 6" x 5" adapter and the use of three discharges. My understanding is that you won't get full ISO rating for a pumper, but the object is to provide enough water to save lives and put out fires- right? We had a new pumper several years ago, 1250 gpm capacity, that pumped nearly 1500 gpm from draft with a single inlet. Yet, it was a 1250 pump.
    Is my thinking flawed here?
    Merry Christmas all!

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    Cool Pump

    We had a 1980 Ford C/Grumman, Great Eastern that was a 750 2 stage. Around 1985 we put 6" suction and a 90 degreee elbow on for a cheap side/front suction and she would pump 1250 gpm all day long ( or as long as the NFPA required 2 hour gas tank would let her )

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    Smile

    That may work in New Jersey but try doing it in Colorado.

    Merry Christmas

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